Venezuela nationalizes oil industry.

[GostHacked]

Yes, and what Chavez is doing to big oil is even worse than PET I believe. But not many seem to care since oil profits are at record levels. To me it's the principle of the thing. Whether you seize assets of Chevron or makers of the Smart Car, it's still stealing.

Meh, he can just claim that these companies are supporting terrorism. No one will want to go against that.

[sharkman]

I don't think that would work, he already supports terrorism, and has that wild eyed terrorists aura around him claiming that Bush is the DEVIL! (Enter scary music)

[Riverwind]

I think, if you listen very carefully you can hear the cries of "NIMBY" in the wind...

I'd sell my backyard to an oil refinery.

But I bet you would have a big problem if your neighbor did and caused your property value to collapse as a result....

[stignasty]

I think, if you listen very carefully you can hear the cries of "NIMBY" in the wind...

I'd sell my backyard to an oil refinery.

But I bet you would have a big problem if your neighbor did and caused your property value to collapse as a result....

Does anyone remember Hub Oil? Wasn't that in geoffrey's backyard?

[geoffrey]

Does anyone remember Hub Oil? Wasn't that in geoffrey's backyard?

Well, Calgary unfortunately has a population of more than 2. So not quite, but I could see the big plume of smoke (I was driving into the city from camping with the family at Cypress Hills... pretty crazy that I remember that, but it was the most smoke I've ever seen, won't forget it). It was actually about 20km from my house. I think Hub had to pay out some settlements to surrounding owners for their damages too.

In all seriousness though, refineries are safe when built within today's standards, that was my point. I don't think anyone would actually live next to one... we've got about a bazillion miles of empty farmland in Alberta (or the rest of Canada for that matter), it wouldn't be tough to buy a quarter section and make a fortune with little impact on anyone.

[sharkman]

Chavez, not satisfied to seize the assets of corporations, has now decided that media outlets who disagree with his dictatorial style will be shut down.

On Friday Venezuela's top court ordered the military to seize control of some of the TV station's installations and equipment in a show of force that included mobilization of anti-riot vehicles to prevent protests from turning violent.

Critics condemned the closure for silencing an influential opposition voice and called the move evidence that Chavez's self-styled socialist revolution is concentrating power and muzzling the opposition.

Late on Friday a group of demonstrators shouting pro-Chavez slogans spray-painted the headquarters of news channel Globovision, the country's last openly anti-government station, which Chavez has also threatened to take off the air for its critical coverage.

[geoffrey]

It's the problem with socialist movements, they have to control the release of information.

For once the peasents know what's happening, they're going to be mighty pissed off. I don't think many will approve of destroying what little wealth they have by running our oil companies out of their country. Western oil made Venezula, they should be thankful. They can't do it without us.

[speaker]

Another paragraph in the same article said the.... "government is not renewing RCTV's license after 53 years on the air because of accusations that the broadcaster participated in a bungled 2002 coup against Chavez, incited violent demonstrations and aired immoral programming."

How long would the Globe and Mail last if it participated in a bloody coup attempt against a Canadian Prime Minister or incited people to violence against the Country? Let's read the whole thing, eh?

geoffrey, isn't it Venezuealan oil that is in the ground in Venezuela? They should be thankful. They can't do without us? I hope there is a lot of capitalist empire builders with that mentality. Let's see what happens over the next twenty years. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that Venezuela could hire trained people to extract oil from the ground and sell it.

Or is that in itself a bad thing?

[Riverwind]

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that Venezuela could hire trained people to extract oil from the ground and sell it.

This is the model that Russia is following. It makes much more economic sense to hire the expertise that is required than to hand over control of your resources to a multi-national.

However, such an approach presumes that the state would be able to manage the operations as well as a for profit company. This is almost never the case since these state enterprises quickly become cesspools of corruption and incompetent bureaucracy. Such an outcome is even more likely in a place like Venezuela where the government is inept to start with.

Venezuela will end up worse off in 20 years because of the Chavez government. Seizing the oil assets is a symptom of the disease - not the cause itself.

[Riverwind]

It's the problem with socialist movements, they have to control the release of information.

Chavez is an opportunistic despot - not a socialist. He uses the rhetoric of socialism to justify his actions but does not really believe in it.

Shutting down the media is the tactic used by every despot who wishes keep power at all costs. Russia, China, Saudia Arabia, Iran all do the same yet none of them are really 'socialist movements'.

[bush_cheney2004]

Maybe Chavez is just an admirer of PM Trudeau and his great NEP adventure. Lots of do's and don'ts to be learned from the Petro-Canada fiasco!

[Remiel]

I had read in another article that they had actually only revoked RCTVs license to broadcast on public airways, but that they still would have been allowed to go on cable and satellite. If that is true, it would seem that the vast majority of articles on the subject are involved in a spin.

How long do you think that one of the major U.S. TV stations would have lasted, post 9-11, if one of them had absolutely refused to have anything to do with the administrations lie-machine? Perhaps they would not have had their license revoked, but I bet there would have been a massive, coordinated campaign by the administration to absolutely destroy them. That did happen to individuals on some of those stations, and you cannot claim that your media is free when the honest dissenters are muzzled by the media itself, in service to the government. For years we listened to how Bush & Co. had the major media towing the line, until only recently they have become a little bolder.

The only difference is in the directness of the approach.

[M.Dancer]

I had read in another article that they had actually only revoked RCTVs license to broadcast on public airways, but that they still would have been allowed to go on cable and satellite. If that is true, it would seem that the vast majority of articles on the subject are involved in a spin.

He gave their license to a "public" (gov't controlled) group.

Venuzuela is a dirt country despite it's oil weath. I doubt, if the cable access is true, that the vast majority of Venuzuelans have cable or satelitte in their homes.

[bush_cheney2004]

....How long do you think that one of the major U.S. TV stations would have lasted, post 9-11, if one of them had absolutely refused to have anything to do with the administrations lie-machine? Perhaps they would not have had their license revoked, but I bet there would have been a massive, coordinated campaign by the administration to absolutely destroy them. That did happen to individuals on some of those stations, and you cannot claim that your media is free when the honest dissenters are muzzled by the media itself, in service to the government. For years we listened to how Bush & Co. had the major media towing the line, until only recently they have become a little bolder.

The only difference is in the directness of the approach.

Oh sure...the "massive right-wing conspiracy" theory against "wardrobe malfunctions". Scary indeed. The fact of the matter is that no such thing has happened with respect to losing FCC licenses, not even after a CBS anchor slandered the president.

You would have lost the bet.

[Remiel]

I think there is a small difference in the level of dissent between slandering the leader of a country and supporting a military coup, don't you?

Bill Maher and Phil Donahue both got canned for daring to question. Maybe you would like to tell me which of the major networks spearheaded the efforts to try and disprove the claims of the White House leading up to the war in Iraq.

The only conspiracy theory I see here is the " left-wing conspiracy to pretend there is a rightwing conspiracy " .

[M.Dancer]

I think there is a small difference in the level of dissent between slandering the leader of a country and supporting a military coup, don't you?

I think there is a wide gulf between a quasi fascist claiming the most popular independant news org supported a coup than proving it actually did.......

[bush_cheney2004]

Bill Maher and Phil Donahue both got canned for daring to question. Maybe you would like to tell me which of the major networks spearheaded the efforts to try and disprove the claims of the White House leading up to the war in Iraq.

Nonsense...they were canned because the producers and networks were losing commercial sponsors. That is far more important than even war. Rush Limbaugh even supported Maher's distinction about what constituted cowardice.

Networks don't "spearhead" efforts...they compete for market share, and that included many appearances by the likes of Scott Ritter long before March 2003.

[speaker]

Networks don't "spearhead" efforts...they compete for market share, and that included many appearances by the likes of Scott Ritter long before March 2003.

There is no difference in this regard between north am networks and stations from those in south America, that in USA and Canada the private for profit ones have to pay their shareholders, have to chase advertising, have to provide the service that the advertisers want, and that has to include slanted news. One thing about something that is out there in the media, if it is inciting people to violence or encouraging a coup d'etat, I would think that would be fairly obvious. Spearheading even.

[speaker]

Chavez is an opportunistic despot - not a socialist. He uses the rhetoric of socialism to justify his actions but does not really believe in it.

Shutting down the media is the tactic used by every despot who wishes keep power at all costs. Russia, China, Saudia Arabia, Iran all do the same yet none of them are really 'socialist movements'.

There is the possibility that Chavez is a socialist, he is trying to recover his countries control over its assets. I understand he is trying to improve education, healthcare, transportation, and the economy, is working at land reform. Perhaps part of the reason he is paying the oil companies for their assets is to keep a larger share of the benefiits from his peoples oil for their benefit. All of these reforms cost money and if it's all going out to corporate pockets there just wouldn't be enough around Venezuela.

I think it is true that despots try to control the media, like the republicans and the liberalconservatives here with the cutbacks to npr and cbc. That of course doesn't mean that any government that was threatened by media demands for violence wouldn't be in their rights to shut it down. A true despot, though, like some of the American supported regimes in central and south America would have just hauled off and shot the perpetrators. Chavez ain't that bad anyway.

[M.Dancer]

I think there is a small difference in the level of dissent between slandering the leader of a country and supporting a military coup, don't you?

I think there is a wide gulf between a quasi fascist claiming the most popular independant news org supported a coup than proving it actually did.......

And by supported I mean materially abetted....not cheer leading.

[M.Dancer]

There is the possibility that Chavez is a socialist, he is trying to recover his countries control over its assets. I understand he is trying to improve education, healthcare, transportation, and the economy, is working at land reform. Perhaps part of the reason he is paying the oil companies for their assets is to keep a larger share of the benefiits from his peoples oil for their benefit. All of these reforms cost money and if it's all going out to corporate pockets there just wouldn't be enough around Venezuela.

I think it is true that despots try to control the media, like the republicans and the liberalconservatives here with the cutbacks to npr and cbc. That of course doesn't mean that any government that was threatened by media demands for violence wouldn't be in their rights to shut it down. A true despot, though, like some of the American supported regimes in central and south America would have just hauled off and shot the perpetrators. Chavez ain't that bad anyway.

He's a national(ist) socialist...he might say he works for the poor...maybe that's why there are so so many poor in venuzuela....gives him job security.

[speaker]

...he might say he works for the poor...maybe that's why there are so so many poor in venuzuela....gives him job security.

Or maybe the reason there are so many poor is that this is the first Venezuelan government that hasn't been pro North American Corporate graft and greed. He must have a fair bit of popular support or his government wouldn't have lasted through the bloody coup attempt. Therefore he must be doing something right by his constituents. Whether it is socialism or South American capitalism, or something completely different in the process of developing it deserves the chance to work it out.

[B. Max]

Or maybe the reason there are so many poor is that this is the first Venezuelan government that hasn't been pro North American Corporate graft and greed. He must have a fair bit of popular support or his government wouldn't have lasted through the bloody coup attempt. Therefore he must be doing something right by his constituents. Whether it is socialism or South American capitalism, or something completely different in the process of developing it deserves the chance to work it out.

Yeah he's been doing a great job today. Tear gas and rubber bullets.

[speaker]

As opposed to that kind of thing in Vancouver, or Belfast, or France, or live rounds in Kent State, or Gaza.

[B. Max]

As opposed to that kind of thing in Vancouver, or Belfast, or France, or live rounds in Kent State, or Gaza.

This thread is about the communist tyrant Chavez and his theft of assets that don't belong to him.