Leader defies court order

[BubberMiley]

That's why I think the Indians should be treated like any other tax-paying members of our society.

Are you suggesting we abandon our agreements? Should the country's word mean nothing?

[betsy]

That's why I think the Indians should be treated like any other tax-paying members of our society.

Are you suggesting we abandon our agreements? Should the country's word mean nothing?

Why should we be stuck in an agreement that is obviously bad for everyone...and that includes the Natives!

[AndrewL]

I support any and all acts of civil disobedience. My support goes out to these natives. Anything that disrupts the status-quo and harms the economic exploitation of the planet is a bonus. I hope they continue this all through the summer.

Andrew

[Leafless]

Here we go again......

Native peoples in North America were smelting metals long before Europeans. It was originally estimated that it was 3000 years before Europeans but scientists have recently revised that with the find of a smelting furnace in Virginia that predates European smelting knowledge by 7000 years.

Gun powder was invented by the Chinese. If we were to compare cultures it would appear the the Europeans were uncivilized and savages long after they fled Europe for the Americas to avoid religious persecution. Had it not been for the Natives' knowledge and agricultural practices, it would be likely the Europeans would not have survived their first winter (and in fact few did being ill prepared and uneducated)

Well then, what happened along the way?

Why us the White guys, the king of the world and not Indians or the Chinese?

Think about it Posit, just think about it.

You Indian guys with steel cannon balls and Chinese gunpowder should have flattened the White guys.

[ScottSA]

"Stop this special status....and entitlement mentality...cos it's only getting passed on to the next generation."

We can't. Their rights extend to before the Charter of Rights and Freedoms - before Confederation and British or French Colonist rule. The best that we can do is learn to live with them in our society and forget about trying to change them to suit our very restrictive and controlling system. Neither can we redefine "human rights". They are what they are and we are what we are. We must learn to get along better - including restoring all the lands issues to an equitable solution.

We can't? The Indians stopped smelting the same day they allegedly started, so all things pass, don't they? The Chinese made fireworks but little else with gunpowder, no matter how much earlier they invented it, while Europeans took the invention and changed it. Lots. Things do change, and where there's a will there's a way. "human rights" are based upon individuals, as I understand it, and not groups defined by race.

[geoffrey]

Getting a bus stuck across the railway tracks is not a crime. It is not terrorism nor can one promote terrorism against property. Holding a street party without a permit isn't a crime either. So a bunch of people who got their bus stuck on the railway and then decided to have a street party is not illegal.

If that bus is on my land, I can forcably remove if you refuse to do so immediately. You also can't have a party on someone else's land, without their permission. Obviously the CN police are just as weak kneed when it comes to dealing with this hooliganism, if I were in charge I would have had the 5:00 freight take the bus off the tracks, end of story. It would all be completely legal to do so, just as you draw your ambigious conclusions.

So what this boils down to is the act was a peaceful movement to instigate discussion and to expose the government's lack of action on land claims. Whether you take it as good or bad, you have been a willing partner in making that happen and all the MSM have done their part. The fact that we are discussing it at all is proof that their methods work - which makes the protestors much smarter than most of you.

I wonder what the Indian response would be if I took a bus and accidentally 'got stuck' on the only transportation route to a remote reserve, and invited all my friends to celebrate the bus getting stuck for a few days (preventing the shipment of water, food, whatever else). I wonder how long they'd suffer before crying out, likely using the racism card.

I'm actually tempted to see what would happen. Unfortunately I'm no longer in Ontario and the Indian groups in my province are far more reasonable and level headed than the Mohawks. Wouldn't want to interfere with that peaceful co-existance. I also have a job, so I can't really hang out for months like the Mohawks did (are doing) at Caledonia and at all these random protests and blockades.

You see, the government doesn't pay my protesting friends for me.

[Posit]

"Why us the White guys, the king of the world and not Indians or the Chinese?"

We're not even Princes in this world. The Islamics dominate the world religions and religion dominates people around the world. Western civilization is in the throes of collapse. The financial, social, justice and educational systems are all in failure mode and we have ruined the environment to a degree that we risk our own health trying to band aid the poisons. In the US and Canada nearly 1/4 of the population is at or near the poverty level and the middle income class that makes up better than 2/3 of the total population pays the highest percentage of the debt load. Ya, we should be really proud of working a dogs life and getting no where but delusional success.

As to survival, in 500 years of direct assault, murder, genocide and assimilation First Nations people are not only here but in 2007 are strong and thriving. Sure some of the populations were affected by all the murderous agenda by Church and government, but for the most part they have won the war waged on them. We should look to them for such successes not being grounded in a false economy that depends on greater and greater export just to keep manufacturing jobs in this country. We should look to them for the future of environmental successes as ancient knowledge will hold answers to modern ecological failures, I'm sure. We should look to them for spiritual and individual successes as spiritual corruption has not only ruined communities and societies but have abandoned children who search out street gangs for a connection to "something".

Guns and steel and powder mean squat to technological advances as people get used by their Blackberrys and investment schemes meant to get those with the money more wealthy. You and are are insignificant in the overall scheme of things. You might prepare yourself for the age of freedom where the white Christian male no longer controls society, or institutions. Equality means EQUITY and the imbalance that kept the Anglo-European Christian men in control is a Jurassic ideology. Move over.....there are more to come....Canada belongs to the minorities.

[ScottSA]

"Why us the White guys, the king of the world and not Indians or the Chinese?"

We're not even Princes in this world. The Islamics dominate the world religions and religion dominates people around the world. Western civilization is in the throes of collapse. The financial, social, justice and educational systems are all in failure mode and we have ruined the environment to a degree that we risk our own health trying to band aid the poisons. In the US and Canada nearly 1/4 of the population is at or near the poverty level and the middle income class that makes up better than 2/3 of the total population pays the highest percentage of the debt load. Ya, we should be really proud of working a dogs life and getting no where but delusional success.

As to survival, in 500 years of direct assault, murder, genocide and assimilation First Nations people are not only here but in 2007 are strong and thriving. Sure some of the populations were affected by all the murderous agenda by Church and government, but for the most part they have won the war waged on them. We should look to them for such successes not being grounded in a false economy that depends on greater and greater export just to keep manufacturing jobs in this country. We should look to them for the future of environmental successes as ancient knowledge will hold answers to modern ecological failures, I'm sure. We should look to them for spiritual and individual successes as spiritual corruption has not only ruined communities and societies but have abandoned children who search out street gangs for a connection to "something".

Guns and steel and powder mean squat to technological advances as people get used by their Blackberrys and investment schemes meant to get those with the money more wealthy. You and are are insignificant in the overall scheme of things. You might prepare yourself for the age of freedom where the white Christian male no longer controls society, or institutions. Equality means EQUITY and the imbalance that kept the Anglo-European Christian men in control is a Jurassic ideology. Move over.....there are more to come....Canada belongs to the minorities.

Here Topaz bares his agenda. The trouble of course is that there are no "minorities" in any other society. There are either armed camps made up of minorities or there is one big majority and a lot of dead people. Evil corrupt white man are actually the only society that invented minority coexistence on a basis of equality. Look to the "first nations"? A stoneage society practising slavery and general barbary as best it could in between chasing dinner and dying of old age around 25? A society that morphed from stoneage to welfare alcoholic in a couple of generations?

[AndrewL]

The law is the law. Civilized people do not resolve disputes by force.

Thats kinda funny since the entire history of civilization is a litany of disputes being settled by force.

Andrew

[Riverwind]

Equality means EQUITY and the imbalance that kept the Anglo-European Christian men in control is a Jurassic ideology. Move over.....there are more to come....Canada belongs to the minorities.

You are right - Canada is becoming a society of minorities which will make it more difficult to justify treating granting special priviledges to one minority because they happen to have the correct DNA. If you really want to see an end to racism in society you should be calling for an end to all native rights and any other social institution that discriminates based on race. However, you don't really want an end to racism - you just want the system to be rigged in favour of natives. Don't waste our time with the owellian double speak you call 'equity'.

[blueblood]

Getting a bus stuck across the railway tracks is not a crime. It is not terrorism nor can one promote terrorism against property. Holding a street party without a permit isn't a crime either. So a bunch of people who got their bus stuck on the railway and then decided to have a street party is not illegal.

If that bus is on my land, I can forcably remove if you refuse to do so immediately. You also can't have a party on someone else's land, without their permission. Obviously the CN police are just as weak kneed when it comes to dealing with this hooliganism, if I were in charge I would have had the 5:00 freight take the bus off the tracks, end of story. It would all be completely legal to do so, just as you draw your ambigious conclusions.

So what this boils down to is the act was a peaceful movement to instigate discussion and to expose the government's lack of action on land claims. Whether you take it as good or bad, you have been a willing partner in making that happen and all the MSM have done their part. The fact that we are discussing it at all is proof that their methods work - which makes the protestors much smarter than most of you.

I wonder what the Indian response would be if I took a bus and accidentally 'got stuck' on the only transportation route to a remote reserve, and invited all my friends to celebrate the bus getting stuck for a few days (preventing the shipment of water, food, whatever else). I wonder how long they'd suffer before crying out, likely using the racism card.

I'm actually tempted to see what would happen. Unfortunately I'm no longer in Ontario and the Indian groups in my province are far more reasonable and level headed than the Mohawks. Wouldn't want to interfere with that peaceful co-existance. I also have a job, so I can't really hang out for months like the Mohawks did (are doing) at Caledonia and at all these random protests and blockades.

You see, the government doesn't pay my protesting friends for me.

I'll tell you what happened when they pulled this type of shenanigans at our man-made lake. Protests for a couple of days. CBC did a little story. The thing is there are a lot of people with not much to do in the winter time after feeding the cows. Long story short, one protest got to the point where the natives were literally chased off the lake leaving their nets behind. 4 RCMP members aren't going to do much against a mile plus long column of pickup trucks with pissed off red necks. As far as I recall, the RCMP told the natives to get the hell off the lake because there wasn't enough cops to protect them and backup was at least a half hour away.

[Riverwind]

Thats kinda funny since the entire history of civilization is a litany of disputes being settled by force.

So you are saying the police should just go in an shoot any protestor that refuses to move? You can't have it both ways. Protestors can only get away with what they do because they live in a society where using force is not acceptable. That makes them the aggressors.

[AndrewL]

Thats kinda funny since the entire history of civilization is a litany of disputes being settled by force.

So you are saying the police should just go in an shoot any protestor that refuses to move? You can't have it both ways. Protestors can only get away with what they do because they live in a society where using force is not acceptable. That makes them the aggressors.

No, not at all. Im just questioning the idea that 'civilized' people are non-violent. If anything civilization is characterized just as much by violence as it is by anything. And here you just said force is not acceptable in society..... just what are we doing in Afghanistan than?

Any sort of violence instigated by the police I hope the native protesters would match with even deadlier force.

Andrew

[Riverwind]

Any sort of violence instigated by the police I hope the native protesters would match with even deadlier force.

I see you have a lot in common with the militias in Iraq.

[Posit]

"Canada is becoming a society of minorities which will make it more difficult to justify treating granting special privileges to one minority because they happen to have the correct DNA."

We'll actually see MORE rights apart from mainstream as the country expresses compassion and understanding for cultural differences. In case you haven't noticed the "multiculturalism" movement designed by the Conservative think tanks to minimize minority rights has floundered - failed - kaput. It has been replaced by a cultural movement that recognizes and celebrates special differences.

Native rights extend beyond the power and control of government. Pretty soon Muslim rights, gay and lesbian rights etc. will follow the same path. There isn't much you can do about, so you might considered getting comfortable with the idea.....

[Posit]

"For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well organized and armed militia is their best security."

Thomas Jefferson November 8, 1808

[ScottSA]

"Canada is becoming a society of minorities which will make it more difficult to justify treating granting special privileges to one minority because they happen to have the correct DNA."

We'll actually see MORE rights apart from mainstream as the country expresses compassion and understanding for cultural differences. In case you haven't noticed the "multiculturalism" movement designed by the Conservative think tanks to minimize minority rights has floundered - failed - kaput. It has been replaced by a cultural movement that recognizes and celebrates special differences.

Native rights extend beyond the power and control of government. Pretty soon Muslim rights, gay and lesbian rights etc. will follow the same path. There isn't much you can do about, so you might considered getting comfortable with the idea.....

WTF are you talking about? You're making no sense whatsoever. Rights that exist outside the rule of law? Do you still have any connectness to reality?

[Riverwind]

It has been replaced by a cultural movement that recognizes and celebrates special differences.

Celebrating diffrences has nothing to do with entrenching special privileges that only one minority is entitled to.

Pretty soon Muslim rights, gay and lesbian rights etc. will follow the same path.

You don't understand much about rights - do you? Gays and Muslims are demanding that their culture been treated as equal to that of the majority. They are not demanding that they be given rights that no one else has.

[ScottSA]

You don't understand much about rights - do you? Gays and Muslims are demanding that their culture been treated as equal to that of the majority. They are not demanding that they be given rights that no one else has.

Good thing too, otherwise one would want the right to stone the other to death.

[Leafless]

However, you don't really want an end to racism - you just want the system to be rigged in favour of natives. Don't waste our time with the owellian double speak you call 'equity'.

Hey, it worked for Quebec.

You can't really blame anyone else for trying.

[Posit]

I understand plenty about rights. Gays and Lesbians, Muslins are looking for recognition of their distinct rights to be guaranteed under the Charter but still refused in many cases in the mainstream. Those rights detach themselves from mainstream ideologues. Gay marriage as an example, expands the definition of marriage to include same sex partners where it was long believed that marriage was an institution restricted for heterosexual couples only. As differences appear, the SCC continues to find ways to protect those differences, even if they are not aligned with the mainstream.

Go back and read the Charter...

25. The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any aboriginal, treaty or other rights or freedoms that pertain to the aboriginal peoples of Canada including

(a) any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763; and

( any rights or freedoms that may be acquired by the aboriginal peoples of Canada by way of land claims settlement.(15)

and

35. (1) The existing aboriginal and treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada are hereby recognized and affirmed.

....recognized and affirmed.... not "offered" ..."not defined" but "affirmed" meaning that the rights existed beforehand and continue in effect despite the Charter.

ALL human rights extend beyond and before the "rule of law". ANY rule of law is a restriction of rights based on an agreement withing a particular society to limit freedoms of one to protect another or a group of others. IN the case of aboriginal rights, the Charter is clear that it "....shall not be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any aboriginal, treaty or other rights or freedoms that pertain to the aboriginal peoples of Canada....".

So yes the rights of Natives are not only outside the rule of law but outside of the Charter limitations as well.

[ScottSA]

So yes the rights of Natives are not only outside the rule of law but outside of the Charter limitations as well.

Excellent. You will no doubt have read how english common law treats folks deemed outside the law then?

[jbg]

I support any and all acts of civil disobedience. My support goes out to these natives. Anything that disrupts the status-quo and harms the economic exploitation of the planet is a bonus. I hope they continue this all through the summer.

Andrew

You should have said "is a bogus", not "is a bonus". Seriously, you sound like a traitor or at the very least a self-hater.

[jbg]

We'll actually see MORE rights apart from mainstream as the country expresses compassion and understanding for cultural differences. In case you haven't noticed the "multiculturalism" movement designed by the Conservative think tanks to minimize minority rights has floundered - failed - kaput. It has been replaced by a cultural movement that recognizes and celebrates special differences.

Native rights extend beyond the power and control of government. Pretty soon Muslim rights, gay and lesbian rights etc. will follow the same path. There isn't much you can do about, so you might considered getting comfortable with the idea.....

I guess you're for a cross between a mad scramble and a Tower of Babel. Why would you want to replace such a great country as Canada with an impoverished, violent, dangerous mish-mash?

[Posit]

The reality is, it is happening - the country is changing from a Anglo-European colonial colony to an independent thinking, self-evolving nation, complete with the tools to decolonize itself. Unfortunately, the Parliamentary system is mired in colonial aristocracy and until such time as the citizens stand up and take government away from the elite and long-term bureaucrats, we will get bogged down in archaic thinking, trying to impose our beliefs on others and waging a fight to those that resist.

There is no doubt in my mind that aboriginal peoples' so-called "special" rights will be further recognized to include self-government, self-determination and self worth apart from mainstream Canadian society.

I suggest you can wake up now. Canada IS "an impoverished, violent, dangerous mish-mash?" Just look at Toronto, the RCMP and the justice system. What I strive for is something far better and far more just than the impotent Conservative wasteland it currently is.