Leader defies court order

[White Doors]

Huh? So natives had big corporations whose sole purpose was to extract resources until the reources were no more and then move on to the next batch?

I see. your so called 'environmentalism' is really code for your leftist leanings.

For an example of how WRONG you are with this simply look to deforestation. Where is the world being deforested? I'll give you a hint, it's NOT where there are big logging coorporations, but there people are living on a subsitence existence. ergo, poor does NOT equal good environmental stewards - in fact the exact opposite.

Did natives hunt for sport or for subsistence?

what difference does that make? They hunted numerous species to extinction.

In our evil first world civilization, I cannot recall a SINGLE species going extinct from sport hunting.

Perhaps you could correct me?

Did they practice agriculture and factory farming?

No, they just farmed until the land turned fallow and moved on. That's ALOT better!

LOL

Did they tear down forests so they could build cities and roads

Why don't you ask the farmers in Brazil who burn acres of rainforest so they can farm?

they live in nurturing communities or did they live in isolation from their neighbors?

What? They fought continual wars with each other long before whitey got here.

Did the natives ever construct gas chambers and commit genocide for no other reason than perverted ideology?

Only because they did not have the know-how to do so. They did master the art of human sacrifice though!

But they only used small pyramids and knives to cut out the still beating hearts of their victims. Woudl that qualify as a perverted ideology? Sacrificing women and children to please the sun gods?

LOL

The natives were not people like us and they did treat the ecosytem as if they were a part of it, not separate from it, not with some perverted notion of having dominion over it.

Then perhaps you can explain all of those NA speciaes going extinct a way before Columbus got here?

LOL

Your post above is possibly the most uninformed and idiotic thing i have read in while. Maybe ever.

At least mine is based on facts, not popular mythology.

Wealthy industrial first world states certainly have lower birth rates than the poor parts of civilization, ill give you that one. But are you under the impression that all 6 billion people on the planet can live like we do?

For the sake of the world's environment, I certainly hope so.

[Riverwind]

And if the earth can't sustain an unlimited amount of peole do you think it is better to just go on like we do and have them all die in war, disease, famine, and environmental disater?

That is what is going to happen because it is impossible to support the current world population without over exploitation of resources. Reducing human consumption down to a 'manageable level' requires de-population - other approaches are simply feel good fantasies that have zero chance of working on a large scale. Our cities are simply too big to support without a modern economy and all of the consumption that fuels it.

[betsy]

We should look to them for the future of environmental successes as ancient knowledge will hold answers to modern ecological failures

Bwa-ha-ha-ha!

So we start worshipping crows? Ha-ha-ha!

But I must say....yes, whites are responsible for this mess.

White politicians. For PANDERING to these people. Net detriment to our society. Virtually no production but we spend billions...in what amount to nothing more than a giant "childcare" system.

Since when is it inherent right of one race to be babysat forever by another race?

Our "time-out" chairs are bursting...soon they'll be demanding their very own prisons!

[betsy]

Any sort of violence instigated by the police I hope the native protesters would match with even deadlier force.

Andrew

Yeah. Like what...making molotove cocktails out of their beer and liquor bottles? Those so-called protests are just an excuse to have their BBQ party! These are the kinds of natives we are supporting financially for life....literally pissing their life away!

And wasting our money.

You can keep justifying and make excuses for their entitlements and their so-called rights....rights that has no more bearing when they go on to trample on the rights of others!

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

Actually i need not make any excuses for native entitilements and rights. They are the only ones with any natural ethical or moral right to this land. Its is you who needs to make excuses for the behavior of the occupier.

Andrew

We have as much right to this country like anyone else. And whether they like that or not, this country is what it is because of the whites...and not the Indians. If you don't like what it is, tough luck.

Where else would they get their welfare cheque from?

What is this nonsense of we were here first? So what! It doesn't work that way in the world. There's always somebody else there first!

This late 21st century non-sensical definition of Indian Tribes as "first nation" is a bigger commandeering of the English language than the word "gay" was.

[betsy]

As to survival, in 500 years of direct assault, murder, genocide and assimilation First Nations people are not only here but in 2007 are strong and thriving.

Yeah. But on whose dime?

They're neither strong, nor thriving. They're hanging on by their fingertips. If we ever let go....they're gone. Unless they get off their butts and start looking after themselves. Stop relying on the handouts.

Have some dignity!

[AndrewL]

I see. your so called 'environmentalism' is really code for your leftist leanings.

For an example of how WRONG you are with this simply look to deforestation. Where is the world being deforested? I'll give you a hint, it's NOT where there are big logging coorporations, but there people are living on a subsitence existence. ergo, poor does NOT equal good environmental stewards - in fact the exact opposite.

Geez, enough with the stupid partisan hackery.

Could you please explain the disappearance of the old growth forest from the US? Who do you think is practicing deforestation in poor countries? Who own the corporations? Who is buying the product?

Did natives hunt for sport or for subsistence?

what difference does that make? They hunted numerous species to extinction.

In our evil first world civilization, I cannot recall a SINGLE species going extinct from sport hunting.

Perhaps you could correct me?

Well, as we speak...

MOSCOW, Russia (Reuters) -- Hunters in Russia's Far East have shot and killed one of the last seven surviving female Amur leopards living in the wild, WWF said on Monday, driving the species even closer to extinction.

Last week environmentalists said there were only between 25 and 34 Amur leopards -- described as one of the most graceful cats in the world -- still living in the wild. (Full story)

At least 100 are needed to guarantee the species' survival which depends upon female leopards breeding. There are more male leopards in the wild than female because cats tend to breed males when under stress, WWF said.

"Leopard murder can only be provoked by cowardice or stupidity, in this case most likely by both," Pavel Fomenko, WWF's biodiversity coordinator in Russia's Far East said in a statement.

A hunter shot the leopard through the tail bone. It tumbled over and was then beaten over the head with a heavy object, WWF said

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/0...reut/index.html

The great white shark is being hunted to extinction in the Mediterranean, while angel sharks have disappeared altogether from the North Sea according to a report from the UN's Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) meeting in Rome.

Although listed as an endangered species since 1983, the great white is legally protected only in Malta. The UK government promised to protect angel sharks in 2001 but, six years on, nothing has been done and they are now classified extinct.

World fisheries experts are seeking urgent protection measures and their study shows the crisis facing fish stocks of every sort all over the world.

http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/...icle2341373.ece

And your argument that natives hunted many large animals to extinction ~10000 years ago is disingenuous. Yes, it is possible that some species were made extinct by native hunting practices, but that argument is conjecture, there is no evidence at all that this is what happened. The argument comes across as more of a pathetic attempt to justify moder human causes of extinction. In other words, even if it was true that some paleo-indians 10 000 years ago hunted some large mammals to extinction, it does not mean we should do the same thing. If the paleo-indians did indeed do this it was simply not clear to them as it would have happened over a thousand years, it could not have been deliberate. Whereas we know we are causing the extinction of many species over an incredibly short period of time, and we still think that so called 'progress, profit, and development' has precedence.

Modern economic systems have been the cause of countless extinctions all over the world. That is simply not deniable.

Did they practice agriculture and factory farming?

No, they just farmed until the land turned fallow and moved on. That's ALOT better!

LOL

Actually, the extremely limited agriculture practiced by some native tribes was ALOT better..... having a land turn fallow and then moving on allows the land to become fertile again. Its much better than farming the same land over and over again , pumping it with chemical fertilizers because it long ago became infertile due to overuse. Now our agricultural land is almost completely devoid of the minerals required for a healthy diet.

Unfortunately, these millions of years of erosion and centuries of unwise farming practices have made good, mineral rich soil a scarce commodity. Soil tests from all over the world have revealed that our soils are severely lacking in minerals. This in turn produces mineral deficient plants with greatly reduced food value for us humans and the animals we eat.

http://www.trccorp.com/faq_root_disease2.php

Did they tear down forests so they could build cities and roads

Why don't you ask the farmers in Brazil who burn acres of rainforest so they can farm?

Thank You. This proves my point. And why exactly do these colonizers burn acres of rainfoerst? Who own them? Who buys the products?

they live in nurturing communities or did they live in isolation from their neighbors?

What? They fought continual wars with each other long before whitey got here.

Im not talking about war, althought it was generally not even close to as horrific as what we do now and what we did to them.

Im talking about their communal life within the tribe.

Did the natives ever construct gas chambers and commit genocide for no other reason than perverted ideology?

Only because they did not have the know-how to do so. They did master the art of human sacrifice though!

But they only used small pyramids and knives to cut out the still beating hearts of their victims. Would that qualify as a perverted ideology? Sacrificing women and children to please the sun gods?

LOL

So you agree that they did not commit genocide on an industrial scale? And you argument is that they would have had they had the technology? That is such a ridiculous argument. It essentailly says" natives would have been just as murderous and cruel as europeans, had they been europeans...." no shit... the fact is they were not and they did not.

The natives were not people like us and they did treat the ecosytem as if they were a part of it, not separate from it, not with some perverted notion of having dominion over it.

Then perhaps you can explain all of those NA speciaes going extinct a way before Columbus got here?

LOL

Perhaps you can show me how you know this? Did you know that this argument rests solely on computer modeling of the ecosystem? Did you know there is no fossil or archaeological evidence of this at all?

Your post above is possibly the most uninformed and idiotic thing i have read in while. Maybe ever.

At least mine is based on facts, not popular mythology.

Actually no, its based on misunderstandings and misrepresentations. You still have plenty of homework to do. Keep trying though.

Wealthy industrial first world states certainly have lower birth rates than the poor parts of civilization, ill give you that one. But are you under the impression that all 6 billion people on the planet can live like we do?

For the sake of the world's environment, I certainly hope so.

For the sake of the worlds environment we desperately need to change the way we go about our subsistence. I suppose you have this naive view of utopia where all 6 billion adopt the same wasteful lifestyles we currently indulge in? So how exactly is that possible when we are all fed by chemical fertilizers derived from fossil fuels that is non-renewable?

I guess ignorance might indeed be bliss, but i prefer to take a more realistic view of our situation.

Andrew

[Posit]

"We have as much right to this country like anyone else. And whether they like that or not....."

Actually we only have as many rights as the letters patent that gave us the formation of Canada, and as much as our rights have been restricted by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms AND those rights afforded us by law. On the other hand, Aboriginal people have an inherent (look it up in the dictionary) right to land and resources. Get used to that fact.

The arguments presented by the xenophobes here about the native impact on the environment are completely off the wall and have no resemblance to reality. There is no sense replying to retarded assertions of that kind.

[betsy]

Aboriginal people have an inherent (look it up in the dictionary) right to land and resources. Get used to that fact.

The same as we all do have that same right! get used to that fact.

[White Doors]

Could you please explain the disappearance of the old growth forest from the US? Who do you think is practicing deforestation in poor countries? Who own the corporations? Who is buying the product?

There are still old growth forests in the States. In fact, there are more acres covered in forests today in the USA than even 100 years ago. It is a well managed forest system by all measures.

Who is practicingf the defirestation? The poor peasants. They chop down wood for fire and to expand crop lands. that's who. No huge forestry corporations. If they were large forstry corporations they would be driven by profit to make sure there was going to be a continual supply of forest - you know, how they do it here?

I see you fail to come up with an exampel of recreational hunting making ONE species extinct. sorry, you lose.

In other words, even if it was true that some paleo-indians 10 000 years ago hunted some large mammals to extinction, it does not mean we should do the same thing.

I have not heard anyne advocate the destruction of any species so please try and stick to the subject.

I was merely debunking the idiotic myth that the Natives were somehow better stewards of the land.

Have you been on a reserve lately? compare that with a modern city. Which is cleaner?

Actually, the extremely limited agriculture practiced by some native tribes was ALOT better..... having a land turn fallow and then moving on allows the land to become fertile again. Its much better than farming the same land over and over again , pumping it with chemical fertilizers because it long ago became infertile due to overuse. Now our agricultural land is almost completely devoid of the minerals required for a healthy diet.

You have heard of crop rotation have you not? It was invented by those dastardly Europeans. It is more beneficial to the soil to mix the crops planted on them to diversify the nutrients released. But you know that didn't you? LOL

Unfortunately, these millions of years of erosion and centuries of unwise farming practices have made good, mineral rich soil a scarce commodity. Soil tests from all over the world have revealed that our soils are severely lacking in minerals. This in turn produces mineral deficient plants with greatly reduced food value for us humans and the animals we eat.

Could you be more specific? I'm sure there are farmers in Canada on this forum. The erosion and soil degradation issues are much worse in un-developed countries. Look at Haiti for one example.

Modernism is almost always better for the environment.

Thank You. This proves my point. And why exactly do these colonizers burn acres of rainfoerst? Who own them? Who buys the products?

No it doesn't dimwit. They burn the rainforest because they are trying to increase their farmland. Rainforest soil is incedibly poor for agrictulture so they can only plant crops for a couple of seasons and then they are 'forced' to burn more rainforest for new areas to plant crops. This does not happen in modern, efficient societies. Your arguments against the 'first world' do not stand up to facts. ie: There is no 'product' to buy once you burn it!

Im not talking about war, althought it was generally not even close to as horrific as what we do now and what we did to them.

Im talking about their communal life within the tribe.

Oh, I see. They fought wars in a better way? is that your argument?

LOL

So you agree that they did not commit genocide on an industrial scale? And you argument is that they would have had they had the technology? That is such a ridiculous argument. It essentailly says" natives would have been just as murderous and cruel as europeans, had they been europeans...." no shit... the fact is they were not and they did not.

You are the one who has been arguing that the natives are better than whitey. I am plainly showing you that it not the case. They are human like all the rest of us. You should stop being so racist.

It's not becoming.

Perhaps you can show me how you know this? Did you know that this argument rests solely on computer modeling of the ecosystem? Did you know there is no fossil or archaeological evidence of this at all?

You disagree that the Giant beaver and the North American horse went extinct? perhaps you could show me evidence of their existence?

thank you. I'll notify the WWF on your behest.

For the sake of the worlds environment we desperately need to change the way we go about our subsistence. I suppose you have this naive view of utopia where all 6 billion adopt the same wasteful lifestyles we currently indulge in? So how exactly is that possible when we are all fed by chemical fertilizers derived from fossil fuels that is non-renewable?

I agree. The third world needs to model their environmental legislation off of ours. Encourage resource management. Kind of hard to do when they are barely able to eat. So what's the solution? Globalization and the betterment of human existence so that there is not this need to waste resources in the developing world. It's kind of hard to convince a starving African to not to cut down that tree so they can prevent erorsion if they are not even sure where their next meal is coming from.

If you are truly worried about the environment, fight for globalization and the liberalization of trade.

THAT will go much furher to improving the world's ecosystems than 'carbon credits'.

Your knee-jerk leftiist instincts won't allow you to see this truth however.

[White Doors]

The arguments presented by the xenophobes here about the native impact on the environment are completely off the wall and have no resemblance to reality. There is no sense replying to retarded assertions of that kind.

You are calling me a xenophobe because of my assertion that Natives are NOT inheritently better than any other race? Do you know what xenophobe means?

You are the xenophobe, not me.

[ScottSA]

Perhaps we should revive some of the old ways. I'm all for driving herds of buffalo over cliffs so I can cull a few yummy buffalo livers. I suppose the evil white man will put me in jail if I start a forest fire so I can grow corn, or enslave Andrew so he can chase tonight's dinner for me, but man, I'm sure looking forward to a life expectancy of a couple decades or so less than I am now, unless I inhaled too much sweetgrass smoke during the last sweathovel or whatever they call those things where everyone goes in a cramped room and stinks for a while with hot stones for company. Hot and cold running water? Electricity? Beer? Who needs it? Oh, wait, beer? Oh well. Give me a traditional 50 cal so I can hunt, throw nets so I can fish, and a stone scalping knife so I can...well pare a bit of pate for decorative purposes on the doorway of my hide hovel. Ah, the good old days when we knew how to take care of nature. No hospitals to fill landfills with bloody bandages, no sewage systems to pump filth into treatment plants, no corporations so treaty wergeld can be paid. Over population? No problem...just depopulate the next village. Bad harvest? No problem, just starve.

[cybercoma]

99.9% of all plants and animals that have ever existed were extinct before man even walked the earth.

Just thought I'd share that bit of useful (useless?) information.

[margrace]

[]

WTF? are you mad? The natives are just people like us. They didn't treat the ecosystem any better and in fact, trated it much worse then we do now.

You are rambling now. You are basing your premise on myths.

Over population is a result of our 'civilized' disposition to the land. Overpopulation comes through exploitation for profit without an eye to the long term consequences. Our mode of economy is inherently unsustainable, and is really only focused on how much one can profit. The problem is not originally over population, over population is merely a result of a faulty world view.

Apparently you prefer to just ignore these problems and make really useless glib comments that are meaningless.

Andrew

Another fallacy. Civilization actually encourages lower birth rates.

Hey, but don't let that stop your self hate.

as you were good leftist soldier!

White Doors if you didn't have the natives to hate and look down on you would find someone else. Some people have to look down on others in order to bolster their own self esteem.

[White Doors]

White Doors if you didn't have the natives to hate and look down on you would find someone else. Some people have to look down on others in order to bolster their own self esteem.

Why would you think I hate Natives??

I have native friends.

I have issues with people saying one race of people are better than another race.

We are all just people. full stop.

Perhaps you could show me where I said I hate natives or even insinuated that. If not I could pull a 'figleaf' on you.