How to stop the next Campus Shooting

[buffycat]

Disarming is NOT the way to go! This is not a right/left issue - no matter how the partisans on both sides make it seem to be.

While I don't agree 100% with Cockburn's take, it's refreshing to see someone make the connection.

The first move of many tyrannies is to remove the ability for the public to defend itself. This is NOT and never has been the role of Police!

http://counterpunch.org/cockburn04212007.html

"Five years ago Peter Odighizuwa a 43 years old Nigerian student killed three faculty members at Appalachian Law School Dean with a semi-automatic handgun, but before he could wreak further carnage two students fetched weapons from their cars, challenged the murderer with guns levelled ,and disarmed him."

*snip*

"The answer is to disband SWAT teams and kindred military units, and return to the idea of voluntary posses or militias: a speedy assembly of citizen volunteers with their own weapons. Such a body at Columbine or Virginia Tech might have saved many lifes. In other words: make the Second Amendment live up to its promise."

*snip*

Click on link for full article. Refreshing to say the least.

[PolyNewbie]

PrisonPlanet & Muchrakker are looking for people to write articles B_Cat.

[PolyNewbie]

Kennesaw, GA's Mandatory Gun Law

A proven success. The way to decrease crime is to enact these kinds of laws if this example is a good example of reality.

Of course we know that the globalists want to destroy the country by starting wars, opening up the borders and sinking the country into unrecoverable debt. Gun bans would seem to be doing the same thing - let only criminals have guns that way you can destroy the country that much sooner.

[bush_cheney2004]

Of course we know that the globalists want to destroy the country by starting wars, opening up the borders and sinking the country into unrecoverable debt. Gun bans would seem to be doing the same thing - let only criminals have guns that way you can destroy the country that much sooner.

This doesn't make any sense....the "country" has grown larger and stronger with wars and debt.

[PolyNewbie]

How has war made the country stronger ?

Of course debt has made the country stronger. Everyone knows that debt is a great thing, particularly when you get absolutely *nothing* in return for it. The further you are in debt and the less you get back for your money the better off you are. Just common sense if you percribe to a globalist double think school of economics.

[bush_cheney2004]

How has war made the country stronger ?

Of course debt has made the country stronger. Everyone knows that debt is a great thing, particularly when you get absolutely *nothing* in return for it. The further you are in debt and the less you get back for your money the better off you are. Just common sense if you percribe to a globalist double think school of economics.

We've already been over this.....thirteen small colonies borrowed some money and booted your king in the ass. This pattern would repeat many times, and the small nation would grow. It is now the most powerful nation on earth.

The DJIA broke 13,000 today....globalists smiled.

[Riverwind]

"Five years ago Peter Odighizuwa a 43 years old Nigerian student killed three faculty members at Appalachian Law School Dean with a semi-automatic handgun, but before he could wreak further carnage two students fetched weapons from their cars, challenged the murderer with guns levelled ,and disarmed him."

Thousands of people die from gun related accidents every year but they do not get the same media attention. A society that has more guns will have more gun related deaths. Therefore it is aburd to claim that allowing guns saves lives. T

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind:A society that has more guns will have more gun related deaths.

So where did you get this "fact" the same place you get your other scientific facts ?

[PolyNewbie]

We've already been over this.....thirteen small colonies borrowed some money and booted your king in the ass. This pattern would repeat many times, and the small nation would grow. It is now the most powerful nation on earth.

It may be a nation if thats how you define it but certainly not owned by its people. Going in debt to private English bankers didn't help them. Thats why they got thrown out and had to sneak back in through Col. Whore House.

[BZBee]

Kennesaw, GA's Mandatory Gun Law

A proven success. The way to decrease crime is to enact these kinds of laws if this example is a good example of reality.

Of course we know that the globalists want to destroy the country by starting wars, opening up the borders and sinking the country into unrecoverable debt. Gun bans would seem to be doing the same thing - let only criminals have guns that way you can destroy the country that much sooner.

Excuse me, but here in the US ANYONE (as indicated by the tragedy at Virginia Tech) can purchase a gun. Also, those who, as you put it, start wars, want open borders, and are responsible for the country's unrecoverable debt are not in favor of gun bans. Give the good law abiding citizens the guns and take them away from those who commit crimes is not exactly gun control.....you're not a bad guy until you use that gun to kill someone. http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_t...on_gun_con.html

Gun control in the US now would be like closing the barn door after the horse is out. According to Bill O'Reily, there are 250 million guns owned in the US....not bad for a country with a population of about 300 million.

Considering the stats of this small city (population, average salary, etc.) it is doubtful that New York, Philadelphia, Tampa, etc. would have the same result: http://www.city-data.com/city/Kennesaw-Georgia.html

[cybercoma]

A: You can't.

[Riverwind]

Riverwind:A society that has more guns will have more gun related deaths.

So where did you get this "fact" the same place you get your other scientific facts ?

Rates of gun related deaths per 100,000 people:

Children <4 years old

US: 0.59

Other Industrialied Countries: 0.07

Children 4-15 years old

US: 2.28

Other Industrialied Countries: 0.18

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046149.htm

There are mountains of statistics that show the same thing: more guns == more deaths.

[BZBee]

And: http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/TheCaseFo...ntrol.html#more

[Wilber]

Thousands of people die from gun related accidents every year but they do not get the same media attention. A society that has more guns will have more gun related deaths. Therefore it is aburd to claim that allowing guns saves lives. T

Just think how many lives are saved by being able to buy hollow point amunition over the counter.

[ScottSA]

The blame lies with guns!

Crick teh rink!

[Riverwind]

The blame lies with guns!

Of course. Every country has social misfits with grudges. But only the US makes it easy for them to get access to weapons that can be used to kill a large number of people in a short period of time.

America's obession with guns kills - no matter how must you try to spin it and rationalize it.

[ScottSA]

The blame lies with guns!

Of course. Every country has social misfits with grudges. But only the US makes it easy for them to get access to weapons that can be used to kill a large number of people in a short period of time.

America's obession with guns kills - no matter how must you try to spin it and rationalize it.

You should read the article I posted. It may not change your mind, but it is one of the better renditions of an alternate viewpoint I've seen in a long time.

[bush_cheney2004]

America's obession with guns kills - no matter how must you try to spin it and rationalize it.

No need to spin or rationalize....firearms are inseparable from the American experience, so much so, they are enshrined in the US Constitution. It is a futile discussion...without guns there would be no America.

Still, a German author notes:

Germany, which has strict gun laws, suffered its own school massacre in the eastern city of Erfurt in 2002 in which 18 people died including the 19-year-old shooter, former pupil Robert Steinhäuser, who was armed with a pump-action shotgun and a 9mm semi-automatic Glock similar to the one used by Cho

[Riverwind]

You should read the article I posted. It may not change your mind, but it is one of the better renditions of an alternate viewpoint I've seen in a long time.

I did read it. Its comparisons to between Cho and Guevara are simply bizarre. I don't think there are many people that are buying 'Cho is a victim' line of thinking. Nor does the article address fact that misfits with easy access deadly weapons kill more people than misfits without access to those weapons.

[Riverwind]

Germany, which has strict gun laws, suffered its own school massacre in the eastern city of Erfurt in 2002 in which 18 people died including the 19-year-old shooter, former pupil Robert Steinhäuser, who was armed with a pump-action shotgun and a 9mm semi-automatic Glock similar to the one used by Cho

No one says that controlling guns will 100% prevent these kinds of incidents. However, controlling guns will make them much less likely or, if they do occur, much less deadly. How many people have died from guns in Germany in the last 30 years? How many in the US?

[bush_cheney2004]

No one says that controlling guns will 100% prevent these kinds of incidents. However, controlling guns will make them much less likely or, if they do occur, much less deadly. How many people have died from guns in Germany in the last 30 years? How many in the US?

Irrelevant....the Americans will not give up their guns no matter how many of the 19,000 annual homicides continue or grow each year.

I am not sure how such incidents would be "much less deadly" once guns are in hand.

Here is a nifty "gun death" calculator by state for 1998...note the number of suicides and large rate deviation by state:

http://www.campaignadvantage.com/services/...asp?state=texas

[kuzadd]

The blame lies with guns!

Of course. Every country has social misfits with grudges. But only the US makes it easy for them to get access to weapons that can be used to kill a large number of people in a short period of time.

America's obession with guns kills - no matter how must you try to spin it and rationalize it.

"social misfits" don't need guns to kill, if that is what they intend.

They can kill with axes, baseball bats, pry bars, knives, and so forth and so on.

The weapon of choice is irrelevant when the intent is to kill, killing will take place!

[PolyNewbie]

Riverwind:Rates of gun related deaths per 100,000 people:

Children <4 years old

US: 0.59

Other Industrialied Countries: 0.07

Children 4-15 years old

US: 2.28

Other Industrialied Countries: 0.18

There are other factors that determine these statistics such as poverty. Canada has a comparable rate of gun ownership than USA as Moore pointed out in his movie Bowling For Columbine.

There probably would be a higher accidental gun death rate among children with guns in the home. But with that reasoning kids shouldn't be allowed in cars because the constitution is far more important than driving.

Of course we know that criminals will always want to take guns away from their victims and we also know that the US government has gone criminal. The trillions missing proves that alone - never mind the kiddie brothels, torture and war crimes.

[buffycat]

Well, being an ex-gungrabber I see clearly both sides of this issue. I used to think - just outlaw guns and gun crime will cease (talk about a simple minded approach), sort of like prohibition! It doesn't work in reality. What ends up happening is law abiding folk are left defenseless while criminals, who by nature don't adhere to laws, roam well armed!

The police are not there to rescue you, they are not there to prevent the crime in the first place - they are there to 'clean' up afterwards, by means of arrest and punishment - but don't kid yourself - they are not there at 3:00 AM when some idiot breaks into your house with who knows what kind of intention. Sad but true.

Now, that said it is clear that those who legally own guns should IMO take training and be required to store their firearms safely - this is a no brainer. But outright banning guns is not going to stop any criminal from getting their hands on one, or two or more! So, we have a situation where those who are responsible are being left without the means to protect themselves - as with this shooting at Vtech. If another student or professor, heck even the campus security, had had a weapon - loaded and ready to go I seriously doubt that this unbalanced nutbar Cho would have wracked up the body count he did. An example of which was the Appalachain incident cited in the article which started this thread.

As for accidents, well they too happen every day. They are tragic yes, but are gun accidents really the big terror the gungrabbers make them out to be? How about accidents in the medical field? How about automotive accidents? How about playground mishaps? Swimming and boating? Knife accidents? Farm equipment accidents? Accidents are simply that - accidental, not intended. It's impossible to legislate 'accidents' away.

Another thing - let's say that guns are all rounded up and dispenced with - well, criminals and nutbars will simply find something else - human nature. Knife culture is alive and well in England, who has some of the strictist gun laws in the world. Almost anything can be used as a weapon in some way. Also, it's a non argument since it is impossible to enforce - if folks want a gun - they will get one - legally or not. So, again sort of like prohibition banning guns is not realistic.

I know it is argued that if guns were not available then mass killings would not take place. I'm not sure of the logic here - as IMO if the mass population is known to carry arms the criminal is much less likely to attempt to take out a load of folks. As stated above - if only one of these kids or adults had been armed, Cho would've been stopped in his tracks.

Now, all that rant aside - illegal smuggling of weapons and the blackmarket thereof is certainly something which DOES need addressing. But disarming a law abiding citizenry is NOT the way to deal with that, in fact it often results in increased use of guns by criminals against said lawful folks. I'll tell you, if I were to be minding a store late at night all alone I would most certainly want a nice loaded firearm by my side, along with some pepper spray and a baseball bat.

[Riverwind]

"social misfits" don't need guns to kill, if that is what they intend.They can kill with axes, baseball bats, pry bars, knives, and so forth and so on.

The weapon of choice is irrelevant when the intent is to kill, killing will take place!

A social misfit with knife might kill one or two people before being stopped. A social misfit with a semi-automatic pistol can kill 32. Easy access to guns makes these incidents much more deadly. Easy access to guns makes accident gun deaths much more likely (how many people accidently die from a baseball bat?).

bush_cheney2004 was correct to say that Americans are obessed with their guns and would not give them up even if it would saves the lives if 10000+ Americans per year. However, that does not change the fact that a society with more guns will have more incidents what happened at VTech. It is pointness to deny that there is a connection even if you think the deaths of those 32 innocent people is a necessary sacrifice.