From Australia no less

[B. Max]

Remember that wonderful picture of stranded polar bears on an ice floe that were used by folks like soon-to-be-Dr. Al Gore to demonstrate how dire the man-made global warming issue is?

Well, ABC television in Australia, on a show called “Media Watch,” recently debunked the entire issue (video available here, h/t NB member dscott).

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/watch/def...02_2120&story=3

It turns out -- as NewBuster Jake Gontesky reported on March 20 -- the picture was taken in August, “when every year the fringes of the Arctic ice cap melt regardless of the wider effects of global warming.”

The photographer, Australian marine biology student Amanda Byrd, didn’t think the bears were in any jeopardy:

[Canadian Blue]

So they debunked the photograph, and somehow that once again seems to debunk all of the science behind climate change.

By the way, Australia isn't a proponent of Kyoto, Howard is an opponent of the accord.

[B. Max]

So they debunked the photograph, and somehow that once again seems to debunk all of the science behind climate change.

By the way, Australia isn't a proponent of Kyoto, Howard is an opponent of the accord.

What science. Gore didn't have any.

[DogOnPorch]

Man certainly does have an effect on the environment. One only has to take a peek at the list of extinctions and endangered species lists to see that. To say otherwise is to just be like a drunk trying to convince not only others, but him/herself that they don't have a drinking problem. Problem is too many people live in cities so the last time they had a look at the environment was the last holiday to somewhere remote... Lake Country in Ontario doesn't count as wilderness. Things always seem "fine" when you live in a sea of blacktop and cement, I guess.

I always tout the Mountain Pine Beetle as a great example of climate change affecting the environment. But last time I mentioned it, numerous "experts" lept to human kind's defence claiming it must be (or could be...so let's wait n' see) some sort of normal natural cycle that the northern boreal forest is going bye-bye forever.

Things to ponder re: mountain pine beetles...

1) they have a built-in anti-freeze that works down to -35C for a two week period. Colder than that...their numbers drop...warmer, they increase.

2) British Columbia hasn't seen temperatures that cold and for that long since the ealy 1980s.

3) the mountain pine beetle has lived in the boreal forest since the last ice-age.

4) they are capable of destroying what they touch in a year...year one is the infection period...year two, the tree turns bright red...year three, the tree turns grey and brittle. Year 2 and 3 are extreme for forest fires...the dead trees burn like matches. Especially the red ones...they still have their dead needles.

5) due to lack of cold since the 80s, the beetles numbers have grown exponentially each year. How much am I talking about? This BC Forestry map animates the spread of the infestation.

6) By 2013 (est) the majority of pine trees on the BC interior plateau will have been killed or infected.

7) Due to overpopulation, the MPB is starting to try and eat types of trees that it 'historically' isn't interested in. The beetle communicates with chemical pheromones...once a tree is fully saturated with beetles, a signal goes out telling new arrivals to find another tree.

So the question is: why is the forest there to begin with? If this is a normal cycle of a few hundred years or so, the beetle would have eaten the entire forest in the past like it is right now.

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We're in a giant car heading towards a brick wall and everyones arguing over where they're going to sit.

---Dr David Suzuki

[Canadian Blue]

What science. Gore didn't have any.

So those 2500 people at the IPCC aren't scientists?

Or would the scientists who oppose climate change happen to be representative of this scientist?

http://environment.guardian.co.uk/climatec...2031457,00.html

[B. Max]

'DogOnPorch' date='Apr 7 2007, 08:59 PM' post='205048']

Man certainly does have an effect on the environment. One only has to take a peek at the list of extinctions and endangered species lists to see that.

If there is any, you certainly haven't provided any. On your other distraction. We are told there are anywhere from twelve to a thousand species going extinct every day depending on what crank pot leftist site you look at, but yet they can't name them.

Things to ponder re: mountain pine beetles...

1) they have a built-in anti-freeze that works down to -35C for a two week period. Colder than that...their numbers drop...warmer, they increase.

2) British Columbia hasn't seen temperatures that cold and for that long since the ealy 1980s.

There is nothing to ponder here, only sort out the facts. BC has temperatures every year including this year of -45.

Where the pine beatle is there never has been temperatures of -45 for two weeks at a time which is what it takes to kill them.

So the question is: why is the forest there to begin with? If this is a normal cycle of a few hundred years or so, the beetle would have eaten the entire forest in the past like it is right now.

Perhaps because of the natural warming after the last ice age.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

We're in a giant car heading towards a brick wall and everyones arguing over where they're going to sit.

---Dr David Suzuki

Suzuki had better hope there isn't a loonie bin on the way to the brick wall. Or he will be getting out.

[B. Max]

What science. Gore didn't have any.

So those 2500 people at the IPCC aren't scientists?

Or would the scientists who oppose climate change happen to be representative of this scientist?

http://environment.guardian.co.uk/climatec...2031457,00.html

He wasn't duped into anything. He was there to talk about oceans. Which he did.

[DogOnPorch]

If there is any, you certainly haven't provided any.

No extinctions...no endangered species. Got it. We were simply hallucinating all those critters that were here n' there before we paved it all over.

Where the pine beatle (sic) is there never has been temperatures of -45 for two weeks at a time which is what it takes to kill them.

Resident of Northern BC, then? Seems you missed the winters I grew up with.

We are told there are anywhere from twelve to a thousand species going extinct every day depending on what crank pot leftist site you look at, but yet they can't name them.

Are you refering to me as left-wing? If you are, excellent. Be sure to notify Canadian Blue who has me pegged for the far right...lol.

Perhaps because of the natural warming after the last ice age.

Whatever keeps you sane filling-up the old SUV.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Self-denial is indispensable to a strong character, and the highest kind comes from a religious stock.

---Theodore Parker

[B. Max]

'DogOnPorch' date='Apr 7 2007, 10:28 PM' post='205064']

No extinctions...no endangered species. Got it. We were simply hallucinating all those critters that were here n' there before we paved it all over.

None of which has anything to do with the so-called man made global warming.

Where the pine beatle (sic) is there never has been temperatures of -45 for two weeks at a time which is what it takes to kill them.

Resident of Northern BC, then? Seems you missed the winters I grew up with.

I don't know where you grew up but the pine beetle is really in the interior as the map shows and only really borders on northern BC where peters out. http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/mountain_pine..._2001to2006.pdf

We are told there are anywhere from twelve to a thousand species going extinct every day depending on what crank pot leftist site you look at, but yet they can't name them.

Are you refering to me as left-wing? If you are, excellent. Be sure to notify Canadian Blue who has me pegged for the far right...lol.

If you read it, you will see what I refered to.

Perhaps because of the natural warming after the last ice age.

Whatever keeps you sane filling-up the old SUV.

Now there is a left wing answer.

[ScottSA]

Man certainly does have an effect on the environment. One only has to take a peek at the list of extinctions and endangered species lists to see that. To say otherwise is to just be like a drunk trying to convince not only others, but him/herself that they don't have a drinking problem. Problem is too many people live in cities so the last time they had a look at the environment was the last holiday to somewhere remote... Lake Country in Ontario doesn't count as wilderness. Things always seem "fine" when you live in a sea of blacktop and cement, I guess.

I always tout the Mountain Pine Beetle as a great example of climate change affecting the environment. But last time I mentioned it, numerous "experts" lept to human kind's defence claiming it must be (or could be...so let's wait n' see) some sort of normal natural cycle that the northern boreal forest is going bye-bye forever.

Things to ponder re: mountain pine beetles...

1) they have a built-in anti-freeze that works down to -35C for a two week period. Colder than that...their numbers drop...warmer, they increase.

2) British Columbia hasn't seen temperatures that cold and for that long since the ealy 1980s.

3) the mountain pine beetle has lived in the boreal forest since the last ice-age.

4) they are capable of destroying what they touch in a year...year one is the infection period...year two, the tree turns bright red...year three, the tree turns grey and brittle. Year 2 and 3 are extreme for forest fires...the dead trees burn like matches. Especially the red ones...they still have their dead needles.

5) due to lack of cold since the 80s, the beetles numbers have grown exponentially each year. How much am I talking about? This BC Forestry map animates the spread of the infestation.

6) By 2013 (est) the majority of pine trees on the BC interior plateau will have been killed or infected.

7) Due to overpopulation, the MPB is starting to try and eat types of trees that it 'historically' isn't interested in. The beetle communicates with chemical pheromones...once a tree is fully saturated with beetles, a signal goes out telling new arrivals to find another tree.

So the question is: why is the forest there to begin with? If this is a normal cycle of a few hundred years or so, the beetle would have eaten the entire forest in the past like it is right now.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

We're in a giant car heading towards a brick wall and everyones arguing over where they're going to sit.

---Dr David Suzuki

With respect, I live in Vernon, right in the path of the epidemic. It has happened before and will happen again. However, it so happens that the mountain pine beetle attacks only lodgepole pine, and the two have co-existed with each other for a very long time with episodic but far reaching attacks every few years. The pine beetle attacks in BC have included major attacks from 1930-45, and from 1980-85, and then again from 2000 to date. The forest is still there because the pine beetle attacks mature lodgepole, leaving young lodgepole (and every other type of tree still standing). To arbitrarly blame this current outbreak on Global Warming is completely off the wall. Weather systems are for the most part localized anyway...while it's been warmer in BC for the last decade or so, last winter was, I believe the coldest winter in Edmonton for the last 100 years. Funny thing is, people are noticing that while some places heat up for a few years, others get colder...hardly a stirling confirmation of Global Warming.

[DogOnPorch]

Vernon, hey? One of my favorite towns. Been north of Cache Creek in a while? How about north of Quesnel?

I'll accept that you all think that this is cyclical. I don't want to fight over this. However, the results are the same. I'll point out that near every pine tree in the Central Interior/Caribou is turning red (90%+ Lodgepole as you state) and dying. Personally, I feel the Pineapple Express (warm air from the tropics) now hits much futher north than it has in the past making our winters much, much milder. As mentioned, too, once a certain population/saturation level seems to get reached, even other types of trees seem to get it...including younger trees under 3 inches as they noticed last year in the worst hit areas.

Down where you live, there's a lot of Ponderosa...I'm not sure your area is as open to attack as this region up on the interior plateau. Judging by the bug's name, one might think they'd like the Ponderosa pines. But up north the infestation has reached the severe state (see pic) with this year expected to infect the remainder of the Central Interior. I know it seems alarming from most perspectives, but this outbreak is different than all the others. The shear numbers of bugs (trillions?) is impressive on its own...especially if you drive through an area where they are flying. But a trip trough Prince George, where the city has had to remove every infected tree, sure is an eye opener if you recall the place before it looked like a scene from Vimy Ridge (stump-city).

I've lived in the OK Valley (Summerland)...how cold did Vernon (in the south of BC) get this winter? Up in the Caribou, it never dropped below -20C with 0C being about the average...much too warm. Never even had to plug the cars in (block-heaters).

The ironic part was Stanley Park (in Vancouver) getting hit with a wind storm...Gordon Campbell was up in the area a few months back letting the north know there was no provincial money to help deal with the MPB this coming summer...on the plane back home he announced $$$$ to help restore/replant that tiny scrap of land. We all found that most humourous. Not that anything we do can stop these bugs anyways...we tried pheromone sacks with nil effect. That was their best plan...lol.

I don't know where you grew up but the pine beetle is really in the interior as the map shows and only really borders on northern BC where peters out. http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/mountain_pine..._2001to2006.pdf

Right in the heart of the infestation...the 2006 map shows the extent at the moment. Imagine the centre of BC as an elevated forested plateau surrounded by mountains...about 2000' above sea-level.

Funny thing is, people are noticing that while some places heat up for a few years, others get colder...hardly a stirling confirmation of Global Warming.

Hardly stirling confirmation that everything is A-OK, either.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The human brain now holds the key to our future. We have to recall the image of the planet from outer space: a single entity in which air, water, and continents are interconnected. That is our home.

---Dr David Suzuki (on his way to the looney-bin)

[Canadian Blue]

Funny thing is, people are noticing that while some places heat up for a few years, others get colder...hardly a stirling confirmation of Global Warming.

Not really, I think that you are simply making a case based on semantics now. Thats why they changed it from Global Warming to Climate Change because people were fairly simple in their view of the issue. We had far from normal weather this year, however it hardly refutes the science behind Climate Change.

I still don't see how becoming more sustainable and energy efficient we are making the way for some "Marxist one world government".

Are you refering to me as left-wing? If you are, excellent. Be sure to notify Canadian Blue who has me pegged for the far right...lol.

Only because I haven't seen this side of you.

[buffycat]

The one thing that people seem to quickly forget (if they even knew it in the first place) is that the one constant in nature is change.

The argument is how much human activity is influencing these natural cycles - something which no one really has an answer to.

Granted though it's a great diversion from other and perhaps greater problems wrt our environment - wars, toxic pollutions (ddt, pbcs, dioxin, pharmaceuticals in the waters etc).

Question wrt polar bears: What happened to them during the last interglacial 125,000 years ago? Recall, sea levels were greater than 2m of what we have presently, and the climate maxima was warmer than ours - which btw happened 6,000 years ago.

I don't recall lots of CO2 emmissions during that timeframe? Anyone? (Not to mention that CO2 is not the worst vilianous gas contributing to warming - water vapour and methane have far greater heat capacities).

Carry on.

[DogOnPorch]

Only because I haven't seen this side of you.

No worries...only during certain phases of the Moon.

--------------------------------------------------------

Wolves have howled at the moon for centuries, yet it is still there

---Unknown

[Catchme]

Dogonporch, it would seem those who are saying there is no serious threat in the Interior of BC with the Pine Beetle, are arm chairing their opinions and nothing more.

It is sickening, and serious, and with the flooding that is going to happen shortly, because of the 150% above normal snow pack and so many 100's of millions of dead trees that will not up take the water, perhaps they will grab a clue.

The largest clear cut ever, at the north end of the Bowron Lake system, that was only replanted in 1976, so the trees are still immature, will be completely red by the end of next year.

There was no separate pine beetle epidemic in the 1980's, it has be growing since then.

People who try to lessen what is happening in regards to the pine beetle destruction are doing a great disservice to Canada at large.

Not only are these 100's of millions of dead trees not going to be uptaking water, they are not absorbing CO2 emissions, and they are a huge forest fire hazard which will have its own environmental catastrophe.

As the epidemic is moving rapidly west down Hwy 16, into the Cariboo, Selkirk Monashee, and Rocky moutain ranges, there will be complete devastation to follow. In just one electrical storm lasting a couple of hours, there can be over 2400 lightening strikes. There will be no way to escape having huge forest fires such as BC has never saw before. Those alone will devastate BC's economy, say nothing of the environment.

Now back to the silly alleged debunking of the polar bear. Ya didn't, they didn't. critical thinking skills should be used a bit more.

Please look at the folowing link and get back to us.

http://nsidc.org/news/press/2006_seaicemin...seaicenews.html

[Rue]

"The photographer, Australian marine biology student Amanda Byrd, didn’t think the bears were in any jeopardy: [/b]

Oh well there you have iut, if Amanda Byrd says so then its o.k. Never mind the myth you are trying

to debunk did not refer to ice caps melting in August-never mind you got it wrong-lets just blame fat Al.

The point fat Al raised, and is NOT being disputed by anyone is that polar bears are becoming exitinct because of global warming and the fact they have no ice to live on in the winter.

Nice try. Next time try attack what was actually said, and use some facts. Also if you are going to qote a photographer/student make sure you quote the full context of what they said and point out it was in regards to a very narrow specific point, not the concept that polar bears are becoming extinct because of climate changes which by the way Amanda Byrd agrees with. Nice try recruiting her into a denial story she never initiated.

[B. Max]

"

The point fat Al raised, and is NOT being disputed by anyone is that polar bears are becoming exitinct because of global warming and the fact they have no ice to live on in the winter.

Nonsense. The polar bears did not go extinct in any other natural warm period, why would they go extinct now. Nor are we anywhere near past natural warm periods. Gore is a liar no matter how you try and spin it.

http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.ph...vived/#more-216

[buffycat]

Nonsense. The polar bears did not go extinct in any other natural warm period, why would they go extinct now. Nor are we anywhere near past natural warm periods. Gore is a liar no matter how you try and spin it.

http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.ph...vived/#more-216

Great link B Max. I mentioned this earlier, though no one said anything - I guess looking at climate from a geological perspective is lost on some.

Things change, species come and go. Of course we are certainly influencing extinction rates, but that is more often than not loss of habitat due to an ever expanding human population - global warming? Not so much.

[DogOnPorch]

Catch Me: It is sickening, and serious, and with the flooding that is going to happen shortly...

I live within 100m of the Fraser...nervous best describes my mood.

Catch Me: People who try to lessen what is happening in regards to the pine beetle destruction are doing a great disservice to Canada at large.

I think unless you see it, it is easy to discount. But as mentioned, a trip through the Caribou with mile after mile after mile of RED rather than green is most disturbing. Too bad they didn't turn bright blue, as I think people often see the damage and go: 'what lovely Fall colours'...wait...it's April...lol.

Catch Me: Not only are these 100's of millions of dead trees not going to be uptaking water, they are not absorbing CO2 emissions, and they are a huge forest fire hazard which will have its own environmental catastrophe.

Good point...last year's forest fires were crazy enough...not to mention the summer-long heat-wave with no rain. Cool sunsets being the only good thing. But folks believe what they wish to believe. Have you seen the damage for yourself?

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Choosing shorts or long underwear on a particular day is about weather; the ratio of shorts to long underwear in the drawer is about climate.

---Charles Wohlforth

[B. Max]

Not much global warming here.

http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/1...ef=wxeyewx14day

[Catchme]

Catch Me: It is sickening, and serious, and with the flooding that is going to happen shortly...

I live within 100m of the Fraser...nervous best describes my mood.

Catch Me: Not only are these 100's of millions of dead trees not going to be uptaking water, they are not absorbing CO2 emissions, and they are a huge forest fire hazard which will have its own environmental catastrophe.

Good point...last year's forest fires were crazy enough...not to mention the summer-long heat-wave with no rain. Cool sunsets being the only good thing. But folks believe what they wish to believe. Have you seen the damage for yourself?

Well, you better start getting real nervous, as I have been watching the the snow melt off the mountains peaks, draining into the Fraser and North Thompson, at a very, very fast rate over the last 2 days, and we are in a 70% chance of rain tomorrow.

Yes, I see the damage every day, we had to cut down almost every pine tree on our property, as they were dead, 27 last summer, with about the same left to go this summer that have pranged through the winter.

Drive through the whole Cariboo and Rocky ranges weekly to PG and, every week there are 100's more orange. 100's of millions of trees all orange, and this HAS NEVR happened before in BC's history!

[ScottSA]

Well, you better start getting real nervous, as I have been watching the the snow melt off the mountains peaks, draining into the Fraser and North Thompson, at a very, very fast rate over the last 2 days, and we are in a 70% chance of rain tomorrow.

Oh puleeze...we're all going to drown this year? From GarBleD WraMmIng!1!!11!!???/?? RUnaWaYzNoW!!1!!!!!

The Frazer has never flooded before? Never had a mild winter before, or a series of them? I remember when I sold beer on wreck beach in 1980, and it set a record for heat and consequetive sunny days that I don't believe has been broken since. Calm thyself catchme...you seem to hyperventilate over just about everything. The angry Man-God of global warming is not going to drag you to Davy Jones locker, nor your kids, nor your grandkids.

[DogOnPorch]

Noticed huge amounts of ice coming down the Fraser at South Fort George...some real big ones...no polar bears. So it's breaking-up fast further up river. The Fraser still has a ways to go here...about 6 feet or so before I start really thinking about Ark building...heheh.

:D

Yeah...it's flooded plenty around here over the years...1972 was the worst I remember...or the best...since I was just a kid and getting around town in a boat was tres fun. I recall watching houses and trailers floating away down the Fraser. There's flood control on the Nechako these days, of course, so it shouldn't ever get that bad again. But tale tells that the dams are pretty full in the area so there's not much slack room. It is predicted to get pretty high here, though. But often that just means some pretty fun mountain biking through the submerged trails.

Right now, oddly enough, we're having more trouble with a group of beavers that have moved into a slow running stream in the area causing it to get very close to flooding. That's about 10m away.

:S

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I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay...

---Michael Palin

[Catchme]

Noticed huge amounts of ice coming down the Fraser at South Fort George...some real big ones...no polar bears. So it's breaking-up fast further up river. The Fraser still has a ways to go here...about 6 feet or so before I start really thinking about Ark building...heheh.

Yeah...it's flooded plenty around here over the years...1972 was the worst I remember...or the best...since I was just a kid and getting around town in a boat was tres fun. I recall watching houses and trailers floating away down the Fraser. There's flood control on the Nechako these days, of course, so it shouldn't ever get that bad again. But tale tells that the dams are pretty full in the area so there's not much slack room. It is predicted to get pretty high here, though. But often that just means some pretty fun mountain biking through the submerged trails.

Right now, oddly enough, we're having more trouble with a group of beavers that have moved into a slow running stream in the area causing it to get very close to flooding. That's about 10m away.

Well, it is raining here today, heavily, too warm for it to be snowing on the mountains. The snow caps will be coming off faster than they were.

With a 150% increase in snow pack and the consequent 92% raise above normal of the Fraser and the frantic dike building going on in the the Fraser Valley, people should be realizing the serious nature of it. IMV, the dikes will not be built/finished in time in the Fraser Valley, the run off into the North Thompson alone will bring the Fraser to higher levels than normal, say nothing of the headwaters of the Fraser itself. We have to go to the coast, in 3 weeks, and will try to go down Hwy 5, but we are concerned about how many areas will not have roads. There are 5 areas that we feel will be washed away.

The flooding of the Nechako, was bad in the early 80's in Vanderhoof, so much for flood control of it.

Below is a link to a site that has a couple of great graphs about the warming that has occurred. Interestly, it really started to warm in the 1990'2, which I suspect was caused by the CO2 emissions caused by the burning oil wells in the first Gulf War, much as the scientists said would happen at the time.

Cooking Our Fish Bowl: Climate Change Report Paints Grim Future

Today, the United States is the greatest contributor of carbon to the atmosphere. China is neck and neck with America. The U.S. is still the richest nation, tremendous resources -- but it's the poor and much of the developing world that are going to pay for America's eco-unfriendly consumption gluttony, according to a new UN report.

One of the authors of the recently released Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has some advice for mankind:

"Don't be poor in a hot country, don't live in hurricane alley, watch out about being on the coasts or in the Arctic, and it's a bad idea to be on high mountains with glaciers melting," said Schneider, the Stanford scientist who was one of the study authors.

Very grim. We need to get a handle on this, but I don't have confidence that we will until something systemically horrible happens -- like the loss of all polar bears, or bumblebees, or frogs. Until we think that mankind could actually be severely impacted, the rich will keep exploiting the low-costs of a carbon dependent energy world.

http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/

[DogOnPorch]

The flooding of the Nechako, was bad in the early 80's in Vanderhoof, so much for flood control of it.

Well it's nothing like the wild unchecked Nechako of the past...but it can still give us a surprise now and again. The Fraser has a huge capacity so it takes quite the chain of "wet" events (ice melt/rain/high water tables etc) to make it burst over its very steep banks in the PG/Quesnel area. But it does happen fairly often...enough that I wouldn't build a house near it. Numerous new houses in the Prince George area, I notice, are right on the edge over-looking the Fraser...they must be gamblers...lol.

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I don't believe in pessimism. If something doesn't come up the way you want, forge ahead. If you think it's going to rain, it will.

---Clint Eastwood