Why Doesn't the US Respect Canada More?

[Smallc]

Great...then I can look forward to bold statements about Canada's role in the world regardless of the Americans and their policies. No more whining about poodles or paralysis in Ottawa.

Looks like Rwanda is backsliding....this time don't let General Dallaire down.

You just don't get it. Canada isn't the US. Stop using the same criteria that you use for your own country when it comes to judgment of Canada. We have a role in the World that is at times quite separate from yours, but it doesn;t amke the news to the extent that yours does and that's just fine by me.

[bush_cheney2004]

You just don't get it. Canada isn't the US. Stop using the same criteria that you use for your own country when it comes to judgment of Canada. We have a role in the World that is at times quite separate from yours, but it doesn;t amke the news to the extent that yours does and that's just fine by me.

Bingo! I think you've finally figured it out...now please apply the same expectation to the United States. Unless you are saying that Canada cannot be judged at all...which is ludicrous.

[Smallc]

Bingo! I think you've finally figured it out...now please apply the same expectation to the United States. Unless you are saying that Canada cannot be judged at all...which is ludicrous.

What have I recently posted in judgment of the United States? I do have problems with your country and I like Canada a great deal better, but I have not said much of anything negative or judgmental about your country. The reality is, I have very little interest in it, aside from possibly your current election.

Edited November 2, 2008 by Smallc

[bush_cheney2004]

What have I recently posted in judgment of the United States? I do have problems with your country and I like Canada a great deal better, but I have not said much of anything negative or judgmental about your country. The reality is, I have very little interest in it, aside from possibly your current election.

Of course you have problems with "my country".....who doesn't? That's how you define Canada as "better"...intead of just different.

[Smallc]

Of course you have problems with "my country".....who doesn't? That's how you define Canada as "better"...intead of just different.

You have a problem with my country as well. It doesn't make either one of them better than the other anywhere outside of our imaginations. They are simply different, as you say.

[bush_cheney2004]

You have a problem with my country as well. It doesn't make either one of them better than the other anywhere outside of our imaginations. They are simply different, as you say.

Yea...I said that. But most Americans don't think twice about Canada. They couldn't care less.

[Smallc]

Yea...I said that. But most Americans don't think twice about Canada. They couldn't care less.

And, your point is??????

[bush_cheney2004]

And, your point is??????

I took the time and effort to find out more.....and react to what I found. Some good...some not so good.

[Kitch]

I don't care about time wasted on guilt....it is irrelevant. The curiosity is the consistent references to American domestic / foreign policy as explanations for Canada's decisions/actions, not only in this forum, but for Canadian media in general. Last night I was watching a C-SPAN tape of a U.K. defense minister briefing. The difference was startling, with very few references to the USA or Americans wrt to their Afghanistan / Iraq missions and commitments. They own their decisions completely, good or bad, without whining about "Bush". It's a totally different mind set compared to the lesser god that is Canada.

Again, by defintion, the USA has ten times the impact just from the 'git go, and because of historical circumstances, a lot more than that. This does not change the underlying nature of such decisions (or lack thereof) from the perspective of national policies.

There are always winners and losers from American policies, but it is not by chance. The oft used word "West" has become a code word for this sphere of influence and beneficiaries, even though it is more complex than that. Apologists for Canada's enemies invoke this term as the target of their judgements and criticisms, even as they live and thrive in same. Some will claim that Canada would have no enemies were it not for the USA, which leads right back to choices made by Canada.

Again....I don't care about "better". Nation states have interests...my constant references to such things when it comes to Canada has nothing to do with guilt and everything to do with reality. Yet it is often perceived as "there BC goes slamming Canada again". Individual Americans have no more control over their government than you do yours, but apparently they are fair game for all manner of such criticism. In the end, America is not disliked for pursuing her interests, but for doing it better than anybody else.

Does this mean you are backing off the "less informed" mantra...because the "more informed" Canadians just made a choice for Harper-Bush (again)? (It's cold in Russia too, but people don't leave just because of the weather.)

All that I'm saying is to own the decisions that Canada does make, regardless of their impact. Americans do not need Canada as a foil to help define themselves.

To be honest, I wasn't constructing my posts in the context of this thread... which I probably should be doing. But the reality is that I, personally, don't care how the 'U.S.' feels about 'Canada'. As I've said, those terms, 'U.S.' and 'Canada', describe large diverse populations of people and cannot be used to draw any accurate conclusions about the collective people who live in each geographic region. Please understand that when I do use these labels its for simplicity, not reality.

My interest in this forum was a little different. I assumed... or hypothesised... that because here in Canada there isn't the same aggressive culture of patriotism (and disdain for anyone labelled "unpatriotic"... whatever that ACTUALLY means), the 'U.S.' may view 'us' as weak... and thus, not respect 'us'.

Now, I can't speak for the Canadians that you're referring to, but I can say that many people speak poorly of the U.S. for things that have been done in the name of the U.S. It usually doesn't have anything to do with Canada. For me to criticize the U.S. for the Vietnam war when Canada helped supply weapons would be unfair. However, for me to lambaste the 'U.S.' (I used that punctuation for a reason) for what happened in Latin America in the 80s, I don't know that I'm being hypocritical. If Canada did have a role, it was not stepping in when it should have... but then, 'we' need to ensure our own safety (from the U.S.) before we can advocate for another population, do we not?

Why would what I said, or what you said in response, mean that I've backed off my claim that 'Canadians' are more informed than 'Americans', generally? I'm not going to hold strongly to that claim, because really, how do I know???

Guilt is irrelevant? I don't know about that. You say that the 'U.S.' "owns" decisions that it makes... well, are you implying that the U.S. hasn't done anything that is regrettable?

[bush_cheney2004]

My interest in this forum was a little different. I assumed... or hypothesised... that because here in Canada there isn't the same aggressive culture of patriotism (and disdain for anyone labelled "unpatriotic"... whatever that ACTUALLY means), the 'U.S.' may view 'us' as weak... and thus, not respect 'us'.

I don't know if weak is the right word, but certainly this perception persists from the very founding of the USA, and curiously pivoted on "loyalists" who would prefer "patriotism" for the crown over "liberty". Today, it manifests itself as the perception of a loose federation ready to separate at the drop of a hat....and by dramatic extension.....no willingness to die for the cause.

Now, I can't speak for the Canadians that you're referring to, but I can say that many people speak poorly of the U.S. for things that have been done in the name of the U.S. It usually doesn't have anything to do with Canada. For me to criticize the U.S. for the Vietnam war when Canada helped supply weapons would be unfair. However, for me to lambaste the 'U.S.' (I used that punctuation for a reason) for what happened in Latin America in the 80s, I don't know that I'm being hypocritical. If Canada did have a role, it was not stepping in when it should have... but then, 'we' need to ensure our own safety (from the U.S.) before we can advocate for another population, do we not?

Of course....so did Vichy France, but they had a more pressing concern. Canada cannot reasonably claim the high ground when very complicit in American dominance, from the uranium for hydrogen bombs to the illegal overthrow of Jean-Bertrand Aristide. Indeed, during the run up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Canada was very careful not to join France and Russia in opposition, nor did it author a General Assembly resolution. It was quite comfortable to sit on the fence, with a wink and a nod to Afghanistan.

Why would what I said, or what you said in response, mean that I've backed off my claim that 'Canadians' are more informed than 'Americans', generally? I'm not going to hold strongly to that claim, because really, how do I know???

I think this is a popular notion born from the likes of Jay Leno, and the truth is probably somewhat different. America is a complex place, with extremes in education and personal choices when it comes to world affairs. Indeed, many of the quotes and references made in this forum are American. Americans cannot be dolts specifically while dominating the planet in general...somebody has to know something...and then there is the issue of "informed" immigrants.....many millions more than Canada

Guilt is irrelevant? I don't know about that. You say that the 'U.S.' "owns" decisions that it makes... well, are you implying that the U.S. hasn't done anything that is regrettable?

Only after the fact.....forgiveness is far easier to get than permission.

[Smallc]

Today, it manifests itself as the perception of a loose federation ready to separate at the drop of a hat....and by dramatic extension.....no willingness to die for the cause.

You couldn't be more wrong.

[bush_cheney2004]

You couldn't be more wrong.

I'll risk that in the face of the Sponsorship scandal and Clarity Act, for instance.

[Kitch]

I don't know if weak is the right word, but certainly this perception persists from the very founding of the USA, and curiously pivoted on "loyalists" who would prefer "patriotism" for the crown over "liberty". Today, it manifests itself as the perception of a loose federation ready to separate at the drop of a hat....and by dramatic extension.....no willingness to die for the cause.

Well, I'm not going to even try to guess at how many people in Canada would be willing to die for a given cause. Particularly if it is a cause within the context of Canadian society (separation of provinces, for example). But if there are Canadians out there who feel as I do, there is far more that you can do while alive than dead... besides, there are ways to 'fight' for causes that aren't violent. As Bertrand Russel said, "I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."

For example, the ideal model of society for me is based on Marxist ideals. I STRONGLY believe that capitalism causes many of the problems that we experience as a society. I STRONGLY believe that we should govern more locally because people in different regions can have very different interests. I STRONGLY believe that our lifestyle here is at the expense of people in other regions around the world. Would I fight to the death for these causes? Definitely not.

The American revolution happened in an entirely different context though. The lives of Americans at the time were more than just less than ideal... were they not? The second amendment must have been added to the constitution for a reason. (Please let me know if my knowledge of history, meaning the lack of it, is leading to an incorrect assumption).

For the record, I don't think that confederation is really beneficial to many people anyway.

(Please don't take what I've said here and use it for an ad hominem attack... if you want to discuss my opinions on such things, I'm game, but those opinions (Marxism and the like) have nothing to do with this conversation).

Of course....so did Vichy France, but they had a more pressing concern. Canada cannot reasonably claim the high ground when very complicit in American dominance, from the uranium for hydrogen bombs to the illegal overthrow of Jean-Bertrand Aristide. Indeed, during the run up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Canada was very careful not to join France and Russia in opposition, nor did it author a General Assembly resolution. It was quite comfortable to sit on the fence, with a wink and a nod to Afghanistan.

I definitely don't disagree with you.

I think this is a popular notion born from the likes of Jay Leno, and the truth is probably somewhat different. America is a complex place, with extremes in education and personal choices when it comes to world affairs. Indeed, many of the quotes and references made in this forum are American. Americans cannot be dolts specifically while dominating the planet in general...somebody has to know something...and then there is the issue of "informed" immigrants.....many millions more than Canada

I don't disagree with you here either, but I think I should remind you of the fallacy of speaking in generalizations. 'Americans' are not dolts as a collective... but just as many Canadians are dolts, many Americans are.

I've never seen the Jay Leno bits, but dude, you should see some of the Canadian comedy shows out there. They interview people from large American cities and WOW. It's pretty funny. (This is probably what leads me to believe that American's are generally "uninformed"... but it could also be the trips that I took down to Florida. Small, rural towns in the south don't seem to be home to the "informed" 'Americans').

Only after the fact.....forgiveness is far easier to get than permission.

Well, how could you experience guilt before the fact. The point is not a matter of admitting being wrong. It's about whether or not guilt is experienced. This would necessitate experiencing empathy for those who were done wrong at the hands of 'Americans'. If people are unable to empathize, in my opinion, our species is doomed. Or at least our version of civilization is.

[Kitch]

I'll risk that in the face of the Sponsorship scandal and Clarity Act, for instance.

Are those causes that you would die for?

[bush_cheney2004]

For example, the ideal model of society for me is based on Marxist ideals. I STRONGLY believe that capitalism causes many of the problems that we experience as a society. I STRONGLY believe that we should govern more locally because people in different regions can have very different interests. I STRONGLY believe that our lifestyle here is at the expense of people in other regions around the world. Would I fight to the death for these causes? Definitely not.

Marxist ideals include a huge void when it comes to variability in human spirit, and would not be without its own problems, including universally shared misery.

The American revolution happened in an entirely different context though. The lives of Americans at the time were more than just less than ideal... were they not? The second amendment must have been added to the constitution for a reason. (Please let me know if my knowledge of history, meaning the lack of it, is leading to an incorrect assumption).

The Second Amendment exists because the Founders wanted to express the only guarantor that they understood (at the time) in the face of oppressive power, domestic or foreign. It also represents the notion of power residing with the people who consent to enumerated but limited government.

For the record, I don't think that confederation is really beneficial to many people anyway.

Perhaps it is not....I tend to think of Canada's federation as a weak ionic bond. America, in comparison, is more of a strong covalent bond.

(Please don't take what I've said here and use it for an ad hominem attack... if you want to discuss my opinions on such things, I'm game, but those opinions (Marxism and the like) have nothing to do with this conversation).

No problem.....Marx and Engels were (among other things) economists...not terrorists.

I don't disagree with you here either, but I think I should remind you of the fallacy of speaking in generalizations. 'Americans' are not dolts as a collective... but just as many Canadians are dolts, many Americans are.

True, but I would add the observation that many Americans choose to be "dolts", as in not caring about being informed of worldly matters, and not caring that they don't care. Also, Americans have created much more content and the bandwidth to digest it compared to other nationals who would consider themselves as "more informed".

I've never seen the Jay Leno bits, but dude, you should see some of the Canadian comedy shows out there. They interview people from large American cities and WOW. It's pretty funny. (This is probably what leads me to believe that American's are generally "uninformed"... but it could also be the trips that I took down to Florida. Small, rural towns in the south don't seem to be home to the "informed" 'Americans').

The Rick Mercer Report doesn't exactly represent Canadians as any better informed. Rural towns in the "south" can seem like urban goliaths compared to rural Canada. I think many stereotypes abound on both sides of the border.

Well, how could you experience guilt before the fact. The point is not a matter of admitting being wrong. It's about whether or not guilt is experienced. This would necessitate experiencing empathy for those who were done wrong at the hands of 'Americans'. If people are unable to empathize, in my opinion, our species is doomed. Or at least our version of civilization is.

Nation states do not operate that way. All species are doomed...that's how we get new ones.

[Smallc]

I'll risk that in the face of the Sponsorship scandal and Clarity Act, for instance.

You can risk it if you like, but just before Canada Day, polls were done showing that never before have Canadians been more proud of this country and more proud to live in this country. The majority of Quebecois don't want to separate and the majority of Canadians don't want Quebec to separate. We are not so divided as you like to make out. I love this country. I love everything it stands for. There are many people that feel the same way.

[bush_cheney2004]

You can risk it if you like, but just before Canada Day, polls were done showing that never before have Canadians been more proud of this country and more proud to live in this country. The majority of Quebecois don't want to separate and the majority of Canadians don't want Quebec to separate. We are not so divided as you like to make out. I love this country. I love everything it stands for. There are many people that feel the same way.

Then why the need for such a poll at all?

[Smallc]

Then why the need for such a poll at all?

Why is there ever a reason for polls?

[bush_cheney2004]

Why is there ever a reason for polls?

To determine prevailing opinion based on a sample population. Somebody still thinks it's an issue besides me.

[Kitch]

Nation states do not operate that way. All species are doomed...that's how we get new ones.

A biologist eh! Your last sentence communicates a true understanding of Darwin!

We're... well I am just debating points without any passion now. I don't identify with a 'nation' and I don't care what other 'nations' think of me, my 'nation' or of themselves. So, MY answer to the main question in this thread is...

WHO CARES!?

For the record, I'd fight for my life and the lives of those that I love if I perceived a real threat or if I could not perceive a non-violent way of resolving a vague threat. (I also view Osama Bin Laden... if such a character exists, as a vague threat to the safety of me and my loved ones... maybe I'm wrong, but maybe I'm right. Either way, that's why I don't wish to kill or die for that particular cause).

"You cannot keep peace by force. It must be achieved through understanding"

Albert Einstein

AND

"To understand is to forgive, even oneself"

Alexander Chase

TRUE communication is the key to solving problems.

(I can hear the conservatives laughing)

[Smallc]

To determine prevailing opinion based on a sample population. Somebody still thinks it's an issue besides me.

Of course its still an issue. There are many issues with many things in many places. Your grasping.

[jbg]

You can risk it if you like, but just before Canada Day, polls were done showing that never before have Canadians been more proud of this country and more proud to live in this country. The majority of Quebecois don't want to separate and the majority of Canadians don't want Quebec to separate. We are not so divided as you like to make out. I love this country. I love everything it stands for. There are many people that feel the same way.

Even though I'm not Canadian I share in many of your sentiments, still, of course, considering my country the best in the world (even including Canada).

[Smallc]

Even though I'm not Canadian I share in many of your sentiments, still, of course, considering my country the best in the world (even including Canada).

That's very good. In my view, unless there is something terribly wrong with your country, and that is certainly not the case in either of our countries, you should love it more than any other. I love this place and that isn't going to change.

[Kitch]

That's very good. In my view, unless there is something terribly wrong with your country, and that is certainly not the case in either of our countries, you should love it more than any other. I love this place and that isn't going to change.

The problem comes when people lose the ability or willingness to perceive something being terribly wrong with their country. In some circles, patriotism has come to imply uncritical support for the leaders of one's country.

[bush_cheney2004]

Of course its still an issue. There are many issues with many things in many places. Your grasping.

And you are admitting that seperatism is still an issue, with many ramifications. It crops up in the usual places (Quebec, equalization payment spats, Alberta oil wealth, proportional representation, etc.).

Your gasping.....