Vimy Ridge

[DogOnPorch]

One of Canada's greatest battles is having its 90th anniversary this Easter. Vimy Ridge took place from about April 2nd to April 12th, 1917, and was part of the larger Battle of Arras.

http://www.legionmagazine.com/features/special/07-03a.asp

http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/vimy/index_e.html

http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/others/vimy.html

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We were dancing a macabre dance as our nerves just vibrated to the thousands of shells and machine gun bullets... whizzing over. I felt that if I had put my finger up, I should have touched a ceiling of sound.

---Corporal Gus Sivertz 2nd CMtR, April 1917

[White Doors]

Vimy was an epic achievement to be sure. It was really the beginning of the end of trench warfare. Canadians changed the tactics of trench warfare forever with the rolling artillery barrage. The day of trenches as an effective defnce was numbered and KO'd by the advent of effective use of tanks.

[theloniusfleabag]

An epic battle, my grandfather and his brother fought there, and lived. My wife is, as we speak, house sitting for a retired Col. who is at the ceremony.

We must hate war, but bless courage.

[Topaz]

My husband gr-father fought there, was gased, returned to Canada only to die months later. He never got to see his only child born.

[Peter F]

None of my Grandparents were anywhere near Vimy. Both were back in Canada running the farm and chasing the lonely ladies.

[weaponeer]

I will be there Monday morning, looking forward to it........

[ScottSA]

Both my grandfather and his brother were there, and both survived the war. Mel (my grandfather's brother) wrote a series of letters home and I still have them. One he wrote on the eve of Vimy and another a couple days after: the first one just says that they're getting ready for something big, and the one after that said it "was a rough show", but that's about it.

It's ironic that he survived all that and came home and died in 1919 of influenza.

[DogOnPorch]

From Google Maps, a very close look at...

Trench reconstruction near Vimy Ridge.

The Vimy Ridge Memorial...note extra buildings and such for the Renovation Project.

The VRM as it was...

Veteran's Affairs site re: The Renovation Project

Some French syntax errors needed correction...and the question of why the government of Canada didn't plan to provide lunch to the 3500+ Canadian students attending Monday's service.

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To those who fall I say: You will not die but step into immortality. Your mothers will not lament your fate but will be proud to have borne such sons. Your names will be revered forever and ever by your grateful country, and God will take you unto Himself.

---General Sir Arthur Currie

[DogOnPorch]

It's ironic that he survived all that and came home and died in 1919 of influenza.

It was definately a case of insult added to injury. A cruel joke on the planet after losing so many to war.

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Around 40 million people died in 1918 Spanish flu outbreak, ... There are six times more people on the planet now so you could scale it up to around 200 million people probably.

---Neil Ferguson

[August1991]

From link above:

By the winter of 1917, the Canadian Corps, led by British Lieutenant-General Sir Julian Byng, was an experienced formation. It had fought well in the costly battles on the Somme in the autumn of 1916, and its divisions, brigades and battalions were well led. A majority of its men had been born in Britain, not the Dominion, but its spirit and sensibility increasingly was Canadian...

Unfortunately, the Battle of Vimy Ridge--April 9-12, 1917--did not alter the course of the war. There was no attempt to exploit the breakthrough achieved by Byng's boys, no effort to send the cavalry streaming through the German lines....

Vimy's transcendental importance was for Canada. It was a great victory achieved by the army of a nation that was only then becoming aware of its nationality. That a majority of the soldiers and the key staff officers were British-born made no difference...

Transcendental importance for Canada? A bunch of British soldiers kill many Germans and take a big hill in a meaningless battle that did not change the course of a meaningless war. How is that really relevant to Canada? I doubt one person in 100 in Quebec could say anything about Vimy.

Stephen Harper is using this for contemporary political purposes.

[ScottSA]

From link above:

By the winter of 1917, the Canadian Corps, led by British Lieutenant-General Sir Julian Byng, was an experienced formation. It had fought well in the costly battles on the Somme in the autumn of 1916, and its divisions, brigades and battalions were well led. A majority of its men had been born in Britain, not the Dominion, but its spirit and sensibility increasingly was Canadian...

Unfortunately, the Battle of Vimy Ridge--April 9-12, 1917--did not alter the course of the war. There was no attempt to exploit the breakthrough achieved by Byng's boys, no effort to send the cavalry streaming through the German lines....

Vimy's transcendental importance was for Canada. It was a great victory achieved by the army of a nation that was only then becoming aware of its nationality. That a majority of the soldiers and the key staff officers were British-born made no difference...

Transcendental importance for Canada? A bunch of British soldiers kill many Germans and take a big hill in a meaningless battle that did not change the course of a meaningless war. How is that really relevant to Canada? I doubt one person in 100 in Quebec could say anything about Vimy.

Stephen Harper is using this for contemporary political purposes.

Vimy is seen by an entire school of Canadian historians as the crucible that defined Canada both at home and on the world stage. My grandfather took my mother overseas to see the dedication of the monument sometime in the 1930s...long before Harper was a gleam in his father's eye. Harper is simply reviving the practice of honoring our vets, after years upon years of fashionable scoffing at them by the Libs and NDP.

[Wilber]

Transcendental importance for Canada? A bunch of British soldiers kill many Germans and take a big hill in a meaningless battle that did not change the course of a meaningless war. How is that really relevant to Canada? I doubt one person in 100 in Quebec could say anything about Vimy.

Every country has defining moments in its history which were very important even though the event in itself may not have changed much. As Quebec doesn't seem to be able to define itself in the context of Canada, that doesn't surprise me at all. If this is the case, why should anyone get sweaty if the French on a few plaques was screwed up?

[jdobbin]

Stephen Harper is using this for contemporary political purposes.

He certainly didn't see fit to invite Opposition members to attend.

[Canuck E Stan]

Stephen Harper is using this for contemporary political purposes.

He certainly didn't see fit to invite Opposition members to attend.

And that is a reason they could not go?

Three thousand kids went,without Harper's invite or the taxpayer's dime.

Maybe the opposition could do the same,because they actually feel and think it's important enough to go,invite or not.

But we know they don't feel that way about the military,past or present.

[jdobbin]

And that is a reason they could not go?

Three thousand kids went,without Harper's invite or the taxpayer's dime.

Maybe the opposition could do the same,because they actually feel and think it's important enough to go,invite or not.

But we know they don't feel that way about the military,past or present.

The kids did go on the taxpayers dime. School divisions, city governments, provinces and some federal grants are all paying for the trip.

Harper had no excuse for not inviting the Opposition to the delegation. Dion had no excuse for not going.

Pox on both their houses.

[August1991]

Every country has defining moments in its history which were very important even though the event in itself may not have changed much. As Quebec doesn't seem to be able to define itself in the context of Canada, that doesn't surprise me at all. If this is the case, why should anyone get sweaty if the French on a few plaques was screwed up?

Given that the battle took place in France and was ostensibly to defend some French people against les boches, it seems appropriate that signs would be in French.

But anyway, as to Canada and Canadian history, that's neither here nor there.

[Canuck E Stan]

And that is a reason they could not go?

Three thousand kids went,without Harper's invite or the taxpayer's dime.

Maybe the opposition could do the same,because they actually feel and think it's important enough to go,invite or not.

But we know they don't feel that way about the military,past or present.

The kids did go on the taxpayers dime. School divisions, city governments, provinces and some federal grants are all paying for the trip.

Harper had no excuse for not inviting the Opposition to the delegation. Dion had no excuse for not going.

Pox on both their houses.

CBC

The students raised the money to pay for their travel and other costs on the trip. Taxpayers are paying for more than 100 government officials to attend the ceremony, along with 20 veterans, 300 armed forces personnel and 20 Mounties.

Dion the French citizen should have gone to show his appreciation of Canadian soldiers.There is absolutely no excuse,he should have pretended he had balls.

[Wilber]

Given that the battle took place in France and was ostensibly to defend some French people against les boches, it seems appropriate that signs would be in French.

True and for that reason they should be corrected.

But anyway, as to Canada and Canadian history, that's neither here nor there.

The fact that this country sent nearly 10% of its population to war and nearly 1% of that population died in it is very much here and there. At the end of the war there were small towns with nearly no male inhabitants between the age of 18 and 35. What other event in our history has had such a traumatic influence on our country? The idea that only 1 in 100 of any segment of our population would have anything to say about that could only be described as pathetic.

[jdobbin]

The students raised the money to pay for their travel and other costs on the trip. Taxpayers are paying for more than 100 government officials to attend the ceremony, along with 20 veterans, 300 armed forces personnel and 20 Mounties.

Dion the French citizen should have gone to show his appreciation of Canadian soldiers.There is absolutely no excuse,he should have pretended he had balls.

Looks like from the article that the kids won't have their lunch paid for by the Feds. Around here though, school divisions, cities and the province helped pick up some of the costs, at least in terms of the replica uniforms go and other fundraising efforts. I have no idea what other provinces did and quite honestly, it doesn't matter. The effort was driven by teachers and students.

Dion should have gone. Harper should have invited the Opposition. As I said, a pox on both their houses.

[geoffrey]

Dion should have gone. Harper should have invited the Opposition. As I said, a pox on both their houses.

The committee had extended invitations that were not passed on, isn't that the case?

Dion's passive shun of France and Canada (where he is a proud citizen of both) is really unacceptable. I'm no nationalist... I don't take pride in the fact that some unrelated people suffered for the freedom of some of Europe versus the rest of Europe. I thank them for their sacrifice, but I'm definitely not proud of it. I think Canadians (and most people in the world evidently) are arrogant for being proud of something they had no hand in. People don't need to die to define a nation (how I'm defined by Vimy, I'm unsure).

I think alot of vets aren't neccessarily proud of what they did. I don't know of any that are comfortable talking about killing the enemy. They realised the reality of the situation, the necessity. They certainly shouldn't feel guilty. But talking to a few friends that are vets of Kosovo and Afghanistan, killing people is never a proud moment.

One friend that was operating with the forces in the South of Aghanistan reflected on his feelings after taking a small town, inflicting massive casualties on the Taliban. I wouldn't dare ask if he had personally killed anyone... but it was very evident that the aftermath of the attack will be with him forever. That was witnessing the death of people that were fully committed to killing him and waging war on the West. The feeling of watching the death of those that were forced into combat, it would be unimaginable.

The suffering of the victors is great as well.

They deserve thanks, and I think they should expect thanks, but I don't think they'd want our national image defined by one of the most terrible times in recent history. I can't imagine the anger that those Canadians felt as they advanced on the German lines, knowing that they were about to kill people that were not interested in Hitler's goals or ideology. Truly terrible. Canada didn't win at Vimy, we lost nearly 3,600 men, and many others were permenantly injured, emotionally and physically. How of the families back in Canada, the UK and even in Germany. The Germans lost 20,000 men, most of which were conscripts. Humanity lost at Vimy... though it was a necessary loss to prevent much greater suffering. There is no glory, nothing to be proud of (alot to be thankful for), especially not for those that weren't there.

200,000 men died at Vimy in total. Millions were affected. It's all very uncomprehensible, very unnerving.

I'd never be proud of sending someone to kill someone else, never. I'd be thankful for their necessary sacrifice, but I can't see how we can be proud of the suffering of everyone involved.

But I'd pay my respects for their sacrifice (those that died and fought at Vimy), their courage paves the way for me to live as I do today. And for that, I'm thankful. Dion doesn't really seem very interested in being respectful... he's far more interested in partisan bickering.

Sorry for leaving the political topic for a bit with my little rant on my feelings about war, ignore and continue if you wish.

[jdobbin]

The committee had extended invitations that were not passed on, isn't that the case?

Invitations were not passed on.

In fact, when invitations were extended to Harper in 2004 for D-Day, Harper refused to go.

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/198073

Earlier, in 2004, Liberals say Martin invited Harper and Layton to France to mark the 60th anniversary of the D-Day invasion – during a federal election – but both stayed in Ottawa

Before that, prime minister Jean Chrétien took opposition leaders to New York after the terror attacks in 2001.

According to Canuck's standards, Harper is a no good bastard who should burn in hell for not attending D-Day events, right?

I think Dion should have gone to the event but let's just say that Harper has set the standard for not attending historic events even when he has gotten an invitation.

[geoffrey]

I don't disagree by any means.

[ScottSA]

Dion should have gone. Harper should have invited the Opposition. As I said, a pox on both their houses.

The committee had extended invitations that were not passed on, isn't that the case?

Dion's passive shun of France and Canada (where he is a proud citizen of both) is really unacceptable. I'm no nationalist... I don't take pride in the fact that some unrelated people suffered for the freedom of some of Europe versus the rest of Europe. I thank them for their sacrifice, but I'm definitely not proud of it. I think Canadians (and most people in the world evidently) are arrogant for being proud of something they had no hand in. People don't need to die to define a nation (how I'm defined by Vimy, I'm unsure).

I think alot of vets aren't neccessarily proud of what they did. I don't know of any that are comfortable talking about killing the enemy. They realised the reality of the situation, the necessity. They certainly shouldn't feel guilty. But talking to a few friends that are vets of Kosovo and Afghanistan, killing people is never a proud moment.

One friend that was operating with the forces in the South of Aghanistan reflected on his feelings after taking a small town, inflicting massive casualties on the Taliban. I wouldn't dare ask if he had personally killed anyone... but it was very evident that the aftermath of the attack will be with him forever. That was witnessing the death of people that were fully committed to killing him and waging war on the West. The feeling of watching the death of those that were forced into combat, it would be unimaginable.

The suffering of the victors is great as well.

They deserve thanks, and I think they should expect thanks, but I don't think they'd want our national image defined by one of the most terrible times in recent history. I can't imagine the anger that those Canadians felt as they advanced on the German lines, knowing that they were about to kill people that were not interested in Hitler's goals or ideology. Truly terrible. Canada didn't win at Vimy, we lost nearly 3,600 men, and many others were permenantly injured, emotionally and physically. How of the families back in Canada, the UK and even in Germany. The Germans lost 20,000 men, most of which were conscripts. Humanity lost at Vimy... though it was a necessary loss to prevent much greater suffering. There is no glory, nothing to be proud of (alot to be thankful for), especially not for those that weren't there.

200,000 men died at Vimy in total. Millions were affected. It's all very uncomprehensible, very unnerving.

I'd never be proud of sending someone to kill someone else, never. I'd be thankful for their necessary sacrifice, but I can't see how we can be proud of the suffering of everyone involved.

But I'd pay my respects for their sacrifice (those that died and fought at Vimy), their courage paves the way for me to live as I do today. And for that, I'm thankful. Dion doesn't really seem very interested in being respectful... he's far more interested in partisan bickering.

Sorry for leaving the political topic for a bit with my little rant on my feelings about war, ignore and continue if you wish.

It is precisely because of the horrors of war that moments of definition come from it. Participation in war is often the standard by which a man measures himself. That's hard to understand for folks who haven't been there, and very hard to understand for feminized men, one of whom will no doubt immediately leap up with a petty line item snipe, but it's true nonetheless. In fact, it's only within the last century in the west that war has become a great evil...no doubt corresponding to the advent of total war and air attacks on the value targets of its participants. Between the enlightenment and the 20th century, war was something largely undertaken on the battlefield between armies, and only incidently involved civil populations. The first world war was perhaps the last such war...aside from the Zeppelin attacks and the destruction of cities immediately adjacent the battlefield, civilian populations were largely intact (although mostly due to the techological failings of both sides). The second world war was a plunge into the dark side of total war, and it's when the west took a turn away from the glorification of war. But that doesn't take away the power of war to shape the specifics of an individual or historically define a nation.

Unfortunately total war has never touched our current enemy, so they don't know the whirlwind yet.

[White Doors]

It's Vimy Ridge people. If you can't leave the politics out of the 90th anniversary out of it then how can you expect the politicians do the same.

It is evident that we do get the leadership we deserve in this country.

And August, becuase they did not 'exploit' the victory does nothing to diminish the victory itself. It forvever changed the tactics. It really was an epic achievement.

[August1991]

It is precisely because of the horrors of war that moments of definition come from it. Participation in war is often the standard by which a man measures himself. That's hard to understand for folks who haven't been there, and very hard to understand for feminized men, one of whom will no doubt immediately leap up with a petty line item snipe, but it's true nonetheless....

What utter nonsense you write.

ScottSA, what do you know of war?