Who's Doing What? Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 Radical natives are included on the same list as the Tamil Tigers and Hezbollah in a new counterinsurgency manual being prepared for the Canadian army. Link ABOUT FREAKING TIME!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 If it walks like a duck ......... Borg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figleaf Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 If it walks like a duck .........Borg So, Borg, are you saying resistance is futile? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
searchingforaformerclearity Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 Radical natives are included on the same list as the Tamil Tigers and Hezbollah in a new counterinsurgency manual being prepared for the Canadian army. Link ABOUT FREAKING TIME!!!! "the actions of a minority group within a state who are intent on forcing political change by means of a mixture of subversion, propaganda and military pressure, aiming to persuade or intimidate the broad mass of people to accept such a change." That can be used to pretty much stifle any protest the government wants. Are you against protest too?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 "the actions of a minority group within a state who are intent on forcing political change by means of a mixture of subversion, propaganda and military pressure, aiming to persuade or intimidate the broad mass of people to accept such a change."That can be used to pretty much stifle any protest the government wants. Are you against protest too?? I wouldn't call subversion and military pressure legitimate forms of protest in our society. Propaganda definitely is. Government is one of its biggest proponents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffrey Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 We've got to be prepared. Each illegal occupation is more extreme than the last, and the police refuse to intervene. It's going to keep esclating as long as we let it. What happens when it goes too far and these people are marching on parliament? Will we stop them then? Apparently the government is preparing to. I see little difference in the illegal occupations of the Indians and the former terrorism of the FLQ. Both need to be dealt with an extremely heavy hand. Such lawlessness cannot ever be tolerated in a civilized society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Max Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 Radical natives are included on the same list as the Tamil Tigers and Hezbollah As well they should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 If it walks like a duck ......... Borg So, Borg, are you saying resistance is futile? You have no idea how often I hear that. Borg is the first 4 letters of my name - I am not a trekkie - and friends have called me this for many years. Borg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weaponeer Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 The military has the responsibility to protect Canadians. The main threat these days is asymetrical. The enemy could be a conventional attack from Russians, China or Iran, it could be the Mosuqe in your neighbourhood, it could be radical indians or a Chistian right wing militia. The military has to adjust, that's all we are seeing here. There is nobody here trying to put down legitimate protests. Car bombs in Oshawa, suicide attacks in Saskatoon or indian "warriors" carrying out insurgent attacks are not legitimate protest..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted April 1, 2007 Report Share Posted April 1, 2007 According to the minister of National defense the new manual will not include any ref to mohawk warriors or any group. Once again the military has been sanitized for polictical correctness. This is a manual that prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more. And if our government decides that your form of protest, requires direct military intervention then one could expect the military to use tactics and doctrine out of this manual. It is not designed to stop all forms of protest, it's designed to prepare our troops for protests that get out of control, such as OKA for instance....when you pick up arms ,kill a officer of the law, there is a problem, and you've taken it from a protest allowed by law to an unlawful one that endangers canadian citizens and needs to be dealt with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Live From China Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 I have always been curious about this. I am certain that groups like the Mohawk "warriors" are "brave" because no one is allowed to fight back. The Romans used to have a saying (which I am sure can be adapted to situations like Oka): "Bravery increases with distance." That said, I am further wondering about a scenario. Let's say another Gustafson Lake or Oka or whatever occurs and weapons are fired by protesters. Police are wounded. And so on. In short, the protesters and the protest gets out of control. The army, and possibly the air force, are called in. Use of deadly force is authorized. And it is used. For obvious reasons, the protesters are defeated. What would actually happen in the end? The PM, the Minister of Defence, the Chiefs of Staff, etc. might be unpopular for awhile. And with how many people? I wonder how many people would be behind them. And how many "brave warriors" would be so brave next time? Of course, I know this is so politically incorrect! Army Guy, I am sorry to hear the military now has to be PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted April 2, 2007 Report Share Posted April 2, 2007 According to the minister of National defense the new manual will not include any ref to mohawk warriors or any group. Once again the military has been sanitized for polictical correctness.This is a manual that prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more. And if our government decides that your form of protest, requires direct military intervention then one could expect the military to use tactics and doctrine out of this manual. It is not designed to stop all forms of protest, it's designed to prepare our troops for protests that get out of control, such as OKA for instance....when you pick up arms ,kill a officer of the law, there is a problem, and you've taken it from a protest allowed by law to an unlawful one that endangers canadian citizens and needs to be dealt with. So how is it 'sanitized for political correctness'? The manual 'prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more' then what would be the logical point of identifying 'mohawk warriors'? Would there be specific tactics to deal with 'mohawk warriors' as opposed to ...say, Cree warriors? Its not sanitization; Its sensibility. Because niether the military nor the government give a shit if its Mowhawk warriors that will be on the recieving end of any counterinsurgency warfare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weaponeer Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 According to the minister of National defense the new manual will not include any ref to mohawk warriors or any group. Once again the military has been sanitized for polictical correctness. This is a manual that prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more. And if our government decides that your form of protest, requires direct military intervention then one could expect the military to use tactics and doctrine out of this manual. It is not designed to stop all forms of protest, it's designed to prepare our troops for protests that get out of control, such as OKA for instance....when you pick up arms ,kill a officer of the law, there is a problem, and you've taken it from a protest allowed by law to an unlawful one that endangers canadian citizens and needs to be dealt with. So how is it 'sanitized for political correctness'? The manual 'prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more' then what would be the logical point of identifying 'mohawk warriors'? Would there be specific tactics to deal with 'mohawk warriors' as opposed to ...say, Cree warriors? Its not sanitization; Its sensibility. Because niether the military nor the government give a shit if its Mowhawk warriors that will be on the recieving end of any counterinsurgency warfare. The military is not PC, it is just that we have to deal with some unpleasent truths that weak kneed people cannot handle. We, the military and society cave into these people, why, I have no idea.... As for the scenario you described, it could happen, hope it does not. The situation would have to become extremly drastic before the CF was ordered to retore order with all means avil. The last time we did that was in 1885 out west. I don't think the gov't/military would be too unpopular just with the folks "sorted out". I think Canadians are slowly waking up and realize, enough is enough with the crazies..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
searchingforaformerclearity Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 According to the minister of National defense the new manual will not include any ref to mohawk warriors or any group. Once again the military has been sanitized for polictical correctness. This is a manual that prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more. And if our government decides that your form of protest, requires direct military intervention then one could expect the military to use tactics and doctrine out of this manual. It is not designed to stop all forms of protest, it's designed to prepare our troops for protests that get out of control, such as OKA for instance....when you pick up arms ,kill a officer of the law, there is a problem, and you've taken it from a protest allowed by law to an unlawful one that endangers canadian citizens and needs to be dealt with. So how is it 'sanitized for political correctness'? The manual 'prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more' then what would be the logical point of identifying 'mohawk warriors'? Would there be specific tactics to deal with 'mohawk warriors' as opposed to ...say, Cree warriors? Its not sanitization; Its sensibility. Because niether the military nor the government give a shit if its Mowhawk warriors that will be on the recieving end of any counterinsurgency warfare. The military is not PC, it is just that we have to deal with some unpleasent truths that weak kneed people cannot handle. We, the military and society cave into these people, why, I have no idea.... As for the scenario you described, it could happen, hope it does not. The situation would have to become extremly drastic before the CF was ordered to retore order with all means avil. The last time we did that was in 1885 out west. I don't think the gov't/military would be too unpopular just with the folks "sorted out". I think Canadians are slowly waking up and realize, enough is enough with the crazies..... What's so crazy about the "crazies"? Are you saying if you were aboriginal you wouldn't fight for your rights? Isn't this manual just a tool so us white folks can fight for our rights? There's no difference between us and them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weaponeer Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 According to the minister of National defense the new manual will not include any ref to mohawk warriors or any group. Once again the military has been sanitized for polictical correctness. This is a manual that prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more. And if our government decides that your form of protest, requires direct military intervention then one could expect the military to use tactics and doctrine out of this manual. It is not designed to stop all forms of protest, it's designed to prepare our troops for protests that get out of control, such as OKA for instance....when you pick up arms ,kill a officer of the law, there is a problem, and you've taken it from a protest allowed by law to an unlawful one that endangers canadian citizens and needs to be dealt with. So how is it 'sanitized for political correctness'? The manual 'prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more' then what would be the logical point of identifying 'mohawk warriors'? Would there be specific tactics to deal with 'mohawk warriors' as opposed to ...say, Cree warriors? Its not sanitization; Its sensibility. Because niether the military nor the government give a shit if its Mowhawk warriors that will be on the recieving end of any counterinsurgency warfare. The military is not PC, it is just that we have to deal with some unpleasent truths that weak kneed people cannot handle. We, the military and society cave into these people, why, I have no idea.... As for the scenario you described, it could happen, hope it does not. The situation would have to become extremly drastic before the CF was ordered to retore order with all means avil. The last time we did that was in 1885 out west. I don't think the gov't/military would be too unpopular just with the folks "sorted out". I think Canadians are slowly waking up and realize, enough is enough with the crazies..... What's so crazy about the "crazies"? Are you saying if you were aboriginal you wouldn't fight for your rights? Isn't this manual just a tool so us white folks can fight for our rights? There's no difference between us and them. NO IT'S NOT... It never fails me how some people miss the point. There are no indians, muslims, jews, blacks or other religious or ethnic barriers in the military. There are ONLY, good guys and bad guys. Good guys and bad guys come in all shapes and sizes. The militarys job is to PROTECT Canadians from the bad guys regardless of their religion or skin colour. This manual is a "DRAFT" document outlining how to conduct COIN operations. It is not the slaughtrer indians manual. Indians have every right to fight "legally" for their rights, just like anyone else. They do not have the right to take up arms, and shoot police officers or anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 According to the minister of National defense the new manual will not include any ref to mohawk warriors or any group. Once again the military has been sanitized for polictical correctness. This is a manual that prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more. And if our government decides that your form of protest, requires direct military intervention then one could expect the military to use tactics and doctrine out of this manual. It is not designed to stop all forms of protest, it's designed to prepare our troops for protests that get out of control, such as OKA for instance....when you pick up arms ,kill a officer of the law, there is a problem, and you've taken it from a protest allowed by law to an unlawful one that endangers canadian citizens and needs to be dealt with. So how is it 'sanitized for political correctness'? The manual 'prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more' then what would be the logical point of identifying 'mohawk warriors'? Would there be specific tactics to deal with 'mohawk warriors' as opposed to ...say, Cree warriors? Its not sanitization; Its sensibility. Because niether the military nor the government give a shit if its Mowhawk warriors that will be on the recieving end of any counterinsurgency warfare. The military is not PC, it is just that we have to deal with some unpleasent truths that weak kneed people cannot handle. We, the military and society cave into these people, why, I have no idea.... As for the scenario you described, it could happen, hope it does not. The situation would have to become extremly drastic before the CF was ordered to retore order with all means avil. The last time we did that was in 1885 out west. I don't think the gov't/military would be too unpopular just with the folks "sorted out". I think Canadians are slowly waking up and realize, enough is enough with the crazies..... What's so crazy about the "crazies"? Are you saying if you were aboriginal you wouldn't fight for your rights? Isn't this manual just a tool so us white folks can fight for our rights? There's no difference between us and them. NO IT'S NOT... It never fails me how some people miss the point. There are no indians, muslims, jews, blacks or other religious or ethnic barriers in the military. There are ONLY, good guys and bad guys. Good guys and bad guys come in all shapes and sizes. The militarys job is to PROTECT Canadians from the bad guys regardless of their religion or skin colour. This manual is a "DRAFT" document outlining how to conduct COIN operations. It is not the slaughtrer indians manual. Indians have every right to fight "legally" for their rights, just like anyone else. They do not have the right to take up arms, and shoot police officers or anyone else. I agree with you and WE (Canadians) should find out why these people react the way they do. I know that the head of the First Nation said the government is not being fair to the First Nation and I guess if you try to find legal ways of trying to settle things, sometimes violence is the only way, but I'm against it. BTW, this story made healdlines in the blogs in the US, that's how I knew about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 So how is it 'sanitized for political correctness'? The manual 'prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more' then what would be the logical point of identifying 'mohawk warriors'? Would there be specific tactics to deal with 'mohawk warriors' as opposed to ...say, Cree warriors? The piont is giving the soldiers a ref piont or example of what cion ops are. The tactics are the same wether your black,white or purple with warts on your dick. Its not sanitization; Its sensibility. Because niether the military nor the government give a shit if its Mowhawk warriors that will be on the recieving end of any counterinsurgency warfare. It is sanitization, the manaul was written by soldiers for soldiers to give them a better understanding of Coin ops, it was not made for public consumption, they used a good "canadian" example something soldiers could relate to or have some knowledge of ...Now that is has been made public it has a few people panties in a knot. and now it's going to be changed, how is that not being sanitized... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad_Michael Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 Radical natives are included on the same list as the Tamil Tigers and Hezbollah in a new counterinsurgency manual being prepared for the Canadian army. I'm thinking the wording here is a bit suspect. What they really mean is that Hizbollah has been added (like a figurehead) to dress up the longstanding Canadian Government/Military view that peace protesters and native protesters are the real enemy. Just like in the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 So how is it 'sanitized for political correctness'? The manual 'prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more' then what would be the logical point of identifying 'mohawk warriors'? Would there be specific tactics to deal with 'mohawk warriors' as opposed to ...say, Cree warriors? The piont is giving the soldiers a ref piont or example of what cion ops are. The tactics are the same wether your black,white or purple with warts on your dick. Its not sanitization; Its sensibility. Because niether the military nor the government give a shit if its Mowhawk warriors that will be on the recieving end of any counterinsurgency warfare. It is sanitization, the manaul was written by soldiers for soldiers to give them a better understanding of Coin ops, it was not made for public consumption, they used a good "canadian" example something soldiers could relate to or have some knowledge of ...Now that is has been made public it has a few people panties in a knot. and now it's going to be changed, how is that not being sanitized... So they removed references to Mowhawk Warriors and now the manual is of less use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Live From China Posted April 3, 2007 Report Share Posted April 3, 2007 What they really mean is that Hizbollah has been added (like a figurehead) to dress up the longstanding Canadian Government/Military view that peace protesters and native protesters are the real enemy. Hmm, I wonder! I, and I am sure many others, regard peace protesters as pretty ineffective. Just as those protesting the 2010 Winter Olympics (although not peace protesters), will not stop them from taking place. Native protesters are just protesters, i.e. not "the enemy", until they start using firearms. Then it doesn't matter that they are natives. Anyone who does this, be they white, black, yellow, red or purple with green polka dots, should be regarded as "the enemy." I have to wonder this: if I drew a gun in the commission of a crime, the RCMP would have no hesitation (given that bystanders would not be killed in doing so) in shooting me. So let's assume that a protest escalates to this level. Why should the skin color of this deadly protester (who is a direct and immediate threat to human life) matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 Peter F: So they removed references to Mowhawk Warriors and now the manual is of less use? No the manual is still very useful. But will not contain all the useful referances. Perhaps you can explain to me why government publications need to be censored, and sanitized, and publications made for public consumption are not. But it is the Canadian way not to piss anyone off, to bend and please every one. Don't like being mentioned in a counter insurgent manual then don't practice insurgent warfare. Mad_Michael: I'm thinking the wording here is a bit suspect.What they really mean is that Hizbollah has been added (like a figurehead) to dress up the longstanding Canadian Government/Military view that peace protesters and native protesters are the real enemy. Just like in the USA. Now you gone and done it , uncovered a secret government /military plot to get rid of peace protesters and native protesters. Perhaps you can give us a list of lawful protests in the last 20 years that the government has ordered the military in to bust up...shit give us a list of unlawful ones lets see if there is a pattern here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 No the manual is still very useful. But will not contain all the useful referances. Perhaps you can explain to me why government publications need to be censored, and sanitized, and publications made for public consumption are not.But it is the Canadian way not to piss anyone off, to bend and please every one. Don't like being mentioned in a counter insurgent manual then don't practice insurgent warfare. The government doesn't sanitize government publications to be wussy? Of course they do. They do it all the time. Its called Political Correctnes - they do it all the time. Its politically smart to do so. The military is not holy ground and is subject to the PC efforts of the government just like every other government department . If there is a detrimental effect of removing the Mowhawk Warriors reference I have yet to hear what it is. As you say the manual is still very usefull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 The government doesn't sanitize government publications to be wussy? Of course they do. They do it all the time. Its called Political Correctnes - they do it all the time. Its politically smart to do so. Yes I'm aware of what it is, but it is also part of our history, and would help put into Canadian context just what and whom is classified as insurgents, and what tactics are to be employed on them. The info that was provided was not done so to profile a race, or religion etc but to provide a canadian example. There are lots of government publications that do this to explain context or meaning of what is written... as for polictically smart , just how much weight does the mohawk warriors have anyways, i'm guessing but i'd say next to none...So what is the problem, perhaps it's canadians not being able to handle the fact there is a canadian group mentioned in the manual. The military is not holy ground and is subject to the PC efforts of the government just like every other government department . I'd did not say that. The mention of the mohawk warriors is not PC because of what exactly? If there is a detrimental effect of removing the Mowhawk Warriors reference I have yet to hear what it is. As you say the manual is still very usefull. And by the same token, i have not heard a clear reason why it should be removed, other than it pissed off a few mohawk warriors...Do we alter all our publications , or for that matter any federal documents where do we draw the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Freddie Posted April 5, 2007 Report Share Posted April 5, 2007 I think what everyone over looked is the obvious use of the term "Radical Natives". Gustafson Lake was the perfect example of why they should be listed with other terror organizations. Anyone, including natives, that pose a threat to this country, and its people, should be eliminated at first oppertunity regardless of the reasoning they give. Also consider that there were a few white Canadians at the Gustafson Lake stand-off. Interesting thought here. Since land doesn't belong to the natives, but to "Mother Earth". Any native that raises a weapon and threatens this country is doing so against what is logical to their heritage. Since the natives don't believe in ownership of land by the traditional sense, any fight for land is infact a fight by "white" rules and that would mean that "Radical Natives" could be considered an organization bent on terrorist acts by majority law. Gustafson Lake was an act of terror by militant action. I support protesting, but I don't think assualting people, or threatening them with harm is protesting. Anyone who protests and then esculates it to criminal behavior deserves anything they get, including death. This radical kind of behavior is carried out to cause terror. All the army manual is suggesting is that Radical behavior by natives can be considered terrorism and be listed as a Terrorist Action and those creating this action considered terrorists. Fat Freddie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter F Posted April 6, 2007 Report Share Posted April 6, 2007 Well, we're arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Whats the reference in the manual say prior to the change? Whats it say after the change? I wouldn't call Gustafson Lake nor Oka terror. If they had set bombs in mailboxes or walked into white town and started shooting, or started randomly sniping whoever happened to cross thier sights - thats terror. They did none of these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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