Stephane Dion's deal with Elizabeth May in Nova Central

[Martin Chriton]

As to Dion's integrity, there's an old tradition of stepping aside to let a party leader win a by-election. And where was Harper's integrity in making Fortier a cabinet minister or accepting Emerson across the floor?

I don't understands people complaints about that. Harper never stated he was against floor crossing and the Fortier thing has been done many times in the past.

The thing is both you and I know that Canada isn't as rich as it could/should be, we don't have as much money as we're letting on, and I think that is flat out dangerous. There's cleaning up after ourselves and there's crippling the economy, I think Dion will cripple the economy to do it (Carbon tax, NEPII), I think Harper has a smart plan in the clean air act in itself (actually reading it, it is very fair).

I think some of Harper's moves have been shady too, and I don't agree with them the same as Dion's.

Exactly. This is why I'd be very nervous if Dion was elected. He has staked his entire reputation on meeting the Kyoto targets in what 2-3 years? Crippling the economy and sending money to Russia for carbon credits isn't my idea of a good plan no matter how much Suzuki likes it.

[Michael Bluth]

There's cleaning up after ourselves and there's crippling the economy, I think Dion will cripple the economy to do it (Carbon tax, NEPII), I think Harper has a smart plan in the clean air act in itself (actually reading it, it is very fair).

I think some of Harper's moves have been shady too, and I don't agree with them the same as Dion's.

call me Polynewbie but I'm still dead convinced this is a plot by Kennedy to overhaul the party and take it back to the centre. The real clash will be in about 8-10 yrs. after Harper gets his majority mandate and goes into yet another election.

Sounds fair. Canadian democracy is best served when he have significant portions of time with both parties in power.

If Harper could pull off two majorities then it would definitely be time to hand the reins back to the Liberals for a little while. The Liberals under Kennedy could be a party worth working for.

Here's another devastating attack on the Dion-Mays Axis from Rex Murphy.

It's hard days for the federal Liberal Party.

Strong parties don't issue free passes. Stéphane Dion and Elizabeth May are obviously each other's greenest fan, but mutual admiration doesn't usually extend to the political equivalent of a non-compete agreement. Now, whether the Greens run a candidate in every riding in the next election will probably not alter the fate of the Confederation. But for the Liberals to elect (forgive the verb) not to run a candidate in every riding is but the latest signal that the natural governing party is seriously off stride. Real parties don't help their rivals.

Poor, poor Stéphanie. Doesn't really get it.

[ScottSA]

3. Reading this thread I have yet to see any explanation of why this move will hurt the Liberals. The Libs weren't going to beat Mackay, but and now they get Green credibility at zero cost. I'd like to hear someone express what they think is the downside there.

That's because it's on a different thread. Sorry for the cross post...

Dion has one issue he's stronger than the Cons on, and it's the environment. It will not turn out to be the issue he thinks it is, although he is attempting to whip up a bit of Goreish hysteria over it with this "collaboration" between the Libs and Greens. Hence his hysterical announcement that "We need exceptional solutions and that's the reason we're acting this way". This is a cynical manipulation of the voting public of course, but this is politics, so it's nothing that can be held against him.

But there's a fatal flaw to the programme that any seasoned leader would have seen a mile off and avoided: he has effectively linked his party to the Greens, and everything the Greens do from now on will reflect on the Liberals, until such time as Dion twigs on to the huge liability and blunders his way out of this collaboration. There are plenty of skeletons in the Greens closet, as with any neophyte party, including but not limited to their entire economic platform, which we've not yet seen, but which I'll bet dimes to dollars is just like the Leninist program the GP in the US embraces.

The Canadian GP has so far announced only the usual platitudes, and it apparently intends to fund the living shite out of everything in sight, but how it will do this is only hinted at with such things as "We can do this by shifting taxes away from jobs and employment, and onto pollution and non-sustainable products, thereby freeing up funding for social programs while encouraging new infrastructure." Now I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but I'll hazard a guess it means many many less jobs everywhere except the hemp growing industry. It shows a lack of understanding of national economics rivalled only by the new democrats, who have traditionally imagined that government sponsored work programs are a panacea for everything in spite of having a total lack of value-added or wealth creation.

But what Dion has done is open a Pandoras box of unending scandal focused right on him. Dumb dumb move.

[madmax]

I think Jack Layton's major issue was that the Green Party shouldn't treat the Liberals as though they are the saviors of the environment. I highly doubt we'll see a larger commitment from the Liberals if they do get into power.

If that was what Jack said, I would agree with him.

Here is what Jack Said that agrees with Canadian Blue.

Layton said Canadians will not forget Dion’s poor environmental record.

“I’m disappointed to see Elizabeth May throw in her lot with a man who was Environment Minister during a period when Canada’s emissions soared by 30%. Now it’s official — she is telling Stéphane Dion that his Liberals don’t need to be held accountable for their dismal environmental record, because she will validate them no matter how much they let ordinary people down

Therefore gc1765 you agree on this point.

But Jack's beef was that this was some sort of "undemocratic" backroom deal, depriving Canadians of a choice in the election. That is B.S.

I agree with Jack. I would expect the 10,000 people in Nova Scotia whom voted Liberal would disagree with your opinion.

This is a backroom deal. It is undemocratic. I think that this is obvious.

You can choose to agree with the tactics or not.

[gc1765]

This is a backroom deal. It is undemocratic. I think that this is obvious.

Why don't you explain How it's undemocratic?

What is stopping Liberal supporters from supporting an independent candidate (or a new party) running on the same "liberal" issues? Is it undemocratic if the ONLY thing that changes is the name of the party?

Is it undemocratic not to run in a riding? Is it undemocratic for me not to be running in the next election, and therefore depriving voters in my riding of a choice? Was it undemocratic for the alliance/PC parties to merge?

[BubberMiley]

It is undemocratic. I think that this is obvious.

Was it undemocratic for the Libs to not run candidates against Day and Clark in 2000? Liberals in those ridings didn't have an opportunity to vote for their preferred candidate then either. If it was, that makes Day's election doubly shady.

[madmax]

My view has been that this seat is a safe Tory seat and will only fall when Liberals are in massive majority territory. As I said, it was never Dion's seat to give away. If, on the off chance that May does win it, the benefits go to both Liberals and Greens.

May couldn't knock off a defeated Liberal in a bye election with all the winds blowing in her direction.

Central Nova is going to be a different kettle of fish.

I think she is toast.

[jdobbin]

May couldn't knock off a defeated Liberal in a bye election with all the winds blowing in her direction.

Central Nova is going to be a different kettle of fish.

I think she is toast.

That may be so. I don't think the Liberals could win Central Nova unless there was a major sweep. I see this as neutralizing part of the Green threat and poking the NDP in the eye. You don't think so?

[madmax]

Was it undemocratic for the Libs to not run candidates against Day and Clark in 2000? Liberals in those ridings didn't have an opportunity to vote for their preferred candidate then either.

Joe Clark ran against a Liberal Candidate in the 2000 Federal Election

Canadian federal election, 2000

Party Candidate Votes % ±% Expenditures

Progressive Conservative Joe Clark 26,358 46.04% +27.49% $67,789

Canadian Alliance Eric Lowther 22,054 38.52% -1.55% $72,436

Liberal Joanne Levy 5,630 9.83% -22.80% $45,827

New Democratic Party Don LePan 1,604 2.80% -3.25% $1,780

Green Michael Alvarez-Toye 1,170 2.04% +0.25% $1,062

Independent Beverley Smith 293 0.51% * $5,223

Marxist-Leninist Margaret Peggy Askin 133 0.23% -0.10% $284

Total valid votes 57,242 100.00% +7,501

Stockwell Day ran against a Liberal Candidate in the 2000 federal election

Party Candidate Votes % ±% Expenditures

Canadian Alliance Stockwell Day 28,794 59.36% $61,098

Liberal Tom Chapman 9,923 20.45% $15,521

New Democratic Party Ken Ellis 4,096 8.44% $4,470

Progressive Conservative Gordon John Seiter 2,939 6.05% $697

Green Harry Naegel 1,110 2.28% $5,034

Marijuana Teresa Taylor 818 1.68%

Canadian Action Larry Taylor 461 0.95% $1,502

Natural Law Elizabeth Innes 167 0.34% $514

Marxist-Leninist Dorothy-Jean O'Donnell 99 0.20% $123

No affiliation Clay Harmon 95 0.19%

Total valid votes 48,502 100.00%

The above ridings were well represented by all parties in a national federal election.

[betsy]

Okay, I watched the tape again (but only the portion on strategists debating)....MDuffy specifically mentioned the name of Ray Heard from Toronto, former Director of Communications for Turner quoting parts of the statement. Check out MDuffy Live on ctv site....you can choose various segments from the show yesterday.

On the very same segment, strategist Tim Power mentioned names of Liberals from Nova Scotia and one from the Green Party who were quoted as being against this arrangement.

Btw, Broadbent mentioned the name of the NDP guy Elizabeth May called several times over the last few weeks, trying to make an arrangement to defeat Harper: Stephen Lewis.

Sorry, I just watched the segments and didn't see anything except May mention prominent Liberals of the riding supporting Dion's decision. Didn't see anything on Heard at all.

May admitted that she spoke to the NDP.

You were watching the wrong segment. Choose the strategies debate segment....the one after Baird.

[Remiel]

I think perhaps that the NDP are not onboard with this because they are feeling the heat of a Green Threat. I think they are worried that if the Greens get a foothold, if will be at their cost.

[Canuck E Stan]

Although this deal was struck in regards to not holding rival candidates in each other's ridings,I wonder if there was not another deal struck in event that May should get elected and represent the Green's in Parliament.

Could Dion have something up his sleeve,like making May the Environment Minister , should the Liberals win the election?

[betsy]

I think perhaps that the NDP are not onboard with this because they are feeling the heat of a Green Threat. I think they are worried that if the Greens get a foothold, if will be at their cost.

Yes....except by the looks of it now, it will be the Green and the Libs who will pay the price. If NDP knows how to play this card well....they could very well gain a lot! Ardent environmentalists may well become NDPers. At least the NDP had always been consistent where they stand.

Elizabeth May just lost her credibility by backing and endorsing the minister who did not only spend billions supposedly trying to get to the target of Kyoto (but instead, even raised the gas emission). Not only did we waste billions for nothing....but we wasted them making the results worse!

I guess to Elizabeth May, spending billions on the environment is her idea of "doing something"....even if the results are dismal. She is not here for the environment. She's here for the possible long-time coshy position! I shudder to think how much price tag we'll be enburdened with funding yet another fiasco.

[Michael Bluth]

Yes....except by the looks of it now, it will be the Green and the Libs who will pay the price. If NDP knows how to play this card well....they could very well gain a lot! Ardent environmentalists may well become NDPers. At least the NDP had always been consistent where they stand.

Yes, Jack's lend us your vote strategy could work this time around.

I imagine that Liberals across the country will be asked why they are challenging a Green candidate in only *some* of the Federal ridings.

Pretty big democratic deficit for the people of Central Nova.

[geoffrey]

Dion is claiming that the environment will be better with May in the House of Commons... is he recognizing the Liberals 13 years of environmental failure and just not running candidates fearing the further damage the Liberals will do to the country by paying Russia to pollute while we pollute more?

Why does a Green MP mean better things than the Liberal MP? Why is Dion willing to admit that his MP's are inferior to Green MPs.

“We have agreed that the country needs a strong signal that puts progress ahead of partisanship,” he said. “To achieve Kyoto, Canada needs MPs and a government that actually understand the threat of climate change and the need for urgent action. This reality has impelled us to seek limited cooperation.

Why can May do it better than a Liberal?

Dion is also trying to get May into the leadership debate. Is his English that poor that he needs someone to speak for him?

The left gets fractured one more time. At this rate, Reform would have a chance at a majority in the near future.

Harper should call an election as soon as possible. Dion is proving to be such a weak leader he bows to pressures from even outside of his party, perhaps Harper should just ask Dion to stop running candidates, it sure seems like it worked for May.

Quotation Source: http://www.liberal.ca/news_e.aspx?id=12676

[Canadian Blue]

Is it undemocratic not to run in a riding? Is it undemocratic for me not to be running in the next election, and therefore depriving voters in my riding of a choice? Was it undemocratic for the alliance/PC parties to merge?

Not really since the membership of both parties agreed to the merger.

Why don't you explain How it's undemocratic?

Did the local riding association vote in favour of ensuring there was no Liberal party candidate.

As well it is odd that the Liberals would concede defeat on the environment by saying that a Green Party member is needed in parliament.

[BubberMiley]

Is it undemocratic not to run in a riding? Is it undemocratic for me not to be running in the next

As well it is odd that the Liberals would concede defeat on the environment by saying that a Green Party member is needed in parliament.

The only place they're conceding defeat is in Mackay's riding.

[Canuck E Stan]

Environment Minister John Baird said May had endorsed the climate change plan introduced when Dion was in government, and challenged her to do the same if the soon-to-be-released Conservative plan was better.

"Who knows, maybe she'll be withdrawing candidates in other ridings," Baird said after wrapping up a trip to meet with his U.S. counterparts in Washington D.C. "Ms. May has always been portrayed as someone of great principle and to make a back-room deal involving pulling choices away from Canadians will not support that reputation. She's supporting someone who didn't get the job done."

The Star Phoenix

Ouch.

[jdobbin]

You were watching the wrong segment. Choose the strategies debate segment....the one after Baird.

Still don't see a strategies segment. I have looked a couple of segments and not seen anything after Baird.

Is there a Mike Duffy page that has them all listed?

[jdobbin]

Harper should call an election as soon as possible. Dion is proving to be such a weak leader he bows to pressures from even outside of his party, perhaps Harper should just ask Dion to stop running candidates, it sure seems like it worked for May.

Harper could call an election Monday. The polls don't show him about to win though.

[Catchme]

I think perhaps that the NDP are not onboard with this because they are feeling the heat of a Green Threat. I think they are worried that if the Greens get a foothold, if will be at their cost.

Yes....except by the looks of it now, it will be the Green and the Libs who will pay the price. If NDP knows how to play this card well....they could very well gain a lot! Ardent environmentalists may well become NDPers. At least the NDP had always been consistent where they stand.

It will be the Greens who pay the price, not the Liberals, except in Central Nova, and most certainly not the NDP.

There have been 4 major defections already from Green to Liberal in the last month. 2 of them are prominent environmentalists. They will take they "green" backers with them in thier ridings, or at least though who would ever vote Liberal in the first place. The others will most likely return to the NDP, with a small core of the uninformed vote staying with the GP. May stands no chance in Central Nova, the combined GP and Liberal Votes do not even meet the 2nd place NDP votes. They should think that just because Ms MacDonald is not running this time, the NDP chances are lower. The NDP are not a finge party there, MacKay has only been winning with 6% or so, over the 2 elections.

A more cogent scenario is: 1/3 or 1/2 of the Liberal vote will go NDP. None will go to MacKay, his voters is solidified, and the rest, that are the old PCers, will go to May, in an attempt to payback MacKay. However, if they really wanted to payback MacKay, then they should vote NDP as he will be gone for sure.

Elizabeth May just lost her credibility

Ms May was losing her credibility for a while now, this is just icing on the cake, or final confirmation, if you will.

I guess to Elizabeth May, spending billions on the environment is her idea of "doing something"....even if the results are dismal. She is not here for the environment. She's here for the possible long-time coshy position! I shudder to think how much price tag we'll be enburdened with funding yet another fiasco.

One can see your tepidation and point. However, at least the Liberals acknowledged and actioned the environment, perhaps not greehouse gases or emissions, but other environmental issues. May's fear is that the CPC, have they ever a chance to have a majority, would scrap ALL environmental protections, as they believe that industry sh/would regulate itself and there is no such thing as global warming. And this is the only area in which Ms May, may well be telling the truth about, and be justifiably afraid.

Frankly, I do not shudder at the price tag, I shudder at what is going to happen if nothing is done. Money means nothing, and it will mean nothing, when your children and grandchildren are starving to death because of dought and famine. Because the global economy will collapse because of this, just as it has before.

We are wasting billions of dollars on Afghanistan, if you are worried about a price tag start there! You will save innocent lives both from Canada and from Afghanistan.

[ScottSA]

Frankly, I do not shudder at the price tag, I shudder at what is going to happen if nothing is done. Money means nothing, and it will mean nothing, when your children and grandchildren are starving to death because of dought and famine. Because the global economy will collapse because of this, just as it has before.

Really? How will a longer growing season spread famine across Canada? How will polar ice caps melting cause drought? Money means nothing? Do you have any idea how silly this all sounds? You're not thinking before you type.

[betsy]

You were watching the wrong segment. Choose the strategies debate segment....the one after Baird.

Still don't see a strategies segment. I have looked a couple of segments and not seen anything after Baird.

Is there a Mike Duffy page that has them all listed?

It's a video. You get to watch the whole show, which was divided by segments. I went to the ctv news homesite. On your right are different panels, one of which says Mike Duffy. I clicked on that and got to a page where you can watch the video. That's where the segments are described.

[betsy]

Frankly, I do not shudder at the price tag, I shudder at what is going to happen if nothing is done. Money means nothing, and it will mean nothing, when your children and grandchildren are starving to death because of dought and famine.

But that's just it, isn't it? Spending just for the sake of spending!

Elizabeth May would rather we throw billions that doesn't do squat....just so she can PRETEND THAT "something is being done about it!"

MONEY MEANS EVERYTHING....ESPECIALLY IF OUR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN ARE STARVING!

Money that could've prepared us all to adjust to the climate change! If Ontario becomes a dessert....maybe it would've been possible to still live on it if we've invested in technologies that could still make it possible....or maybe the entire affected areas would've had to relocate!

What does she think? Money just materialize from nothing?

And there she was at a talk show talking about her plans for more taxation! Boy, we're still reeling at the excesses and irresponsible spending the Liberals had done to taxpayers money.....I guess, Elizabeth May would like to take it to new heights!

[betsy]

One can see your tepidation and point. However, at least the Liberals acknowledged and actioned the environment, perhaps not greehouse gases or emissions, but other environmental issues.

If that's the case....then what's wrong with what Harper is doing now?

May's fear is that the CPC, have they ever a chance to have a majority, would scrap ALL environmental protections, as they believe that industry sh/would regulate itself and there is no such thing as global warming. And this is the only area in which Ms May, may well be telling the truth about, and be justifiably afraid.

Baloney!

MAY did not have any epileptic seizures out of fright from seeing the gas emissions soar up under Dion's watch....in fact, she is applauding Dion!

And you tell me she's having night terrors imagining Harper would scrap everything???

If anything....it is Harper who is actually serious about doing something! But unlike the Liberals who only do gyrations of posturing (and spending), Harper is trying take a more practical....and sustainable approach to the environment!

Harper is not the type to quickly jump in any bandwagon...or be carried away by hype! He is cautious. And that's what a leader should be, especially if the whole nation is counting on his decisions.

But oh no....she'd rather put her money on Dion (with a documented dismal result as the environment minister).

What kind of thinking is that? And what does that say of Dion...since he's so enthralled by her!