US blockade of Cuba

[bush_cheney2004]

Still a bit confused as to why Cuba rates an embargo over every other country in the world.

Because they earned it! It's not so unusual...economic sanctions are a favorite tool of the impotent UN. Embargos have been used on/by other nations as well. Cuba is stuck in Cold War time.

[guyser]

or how about Haiti or East Timor?

Care to expand ?

[bush_cheney2004]

Care to expand ?

No, but these bleeding hearts already have in the spirit of human rights and self-determination for all people without oppression from evil globalists and the New World Order (LOL!):

http://outofhaiti.ca/

http://www.redeagle.com/etanbc/intro.html

http://www.rightsaction.org/Reports/INCO_Nickel_904.htm

[jdobbin]

Because they earned it! It's not so unusual...economic sanctions are a favorite tool of the impotent UN. Embargos have been used on/by other nations as well. Cuba is stuck in Cold War time.

So far the embargo hasn't worked.

[guyser]

http://www.redeagle.com/etanbc/intro.html

That website I am familiar with. Some of there allegations are incorrect.

I know that there were only two people left in East Timor when things got really bad. Both were Canadians put there by our the UN and our govt. But there is no mention on that website.

The Aus's, and others , fled when things got bad. The CDN's would not leave the people as they knew certain slaughter would come about.

Both recd awards for bravery from the Governer General.

[bush_cheney2004]

So far the embargo hasn't worked.

Nope...hasn't worked at all, except as a domestic political issue in the States.

Al Gore Eats Elian Gonzales:

http://www.thegully.com/essays/cuba/elian/...9goreelian.html

[bush_cheney2004]

That website I am familiar with. Some of there allegations are incorrect.

I know that there were only two people left in East Timor when things got really bad. Both were Canadians put there by our the UN and our govt. But there is no mention on that website.

The Aus's, and others , fled when things got bad. The CDN's would not leave the people as they knew certain slaughter would come about.

Both recd awards for bravery from the Governer General.

Wonderful I'm sure....their bravery and dedication remain untarnished. Not so Canada's overall support of Indonesia in such matters. How bad is really bad? Reminds me of Gen Dallaire assessments in Rwanda.

[jbg]

Clinton's turnover of Elian Gonzales was a disgrace.

[jdobbin]

Clinton's turnover of Elian Gonzales was a disgrace.

You don't believe a son is better off with their parent?

[Wilber]

What has the US embargo done to make the lives of Cubans better for the last 45 years?

No Brittney Spears or Celine Dion.

More seriously, the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1989 has led much more to the decline of services and goods in Cuban lives than any period in the past 45 years. Indeed, before 1990, Cuba was advertised as a strong and vibrant defiance of El Bloqueo by Yankee dogs. Thorough analysis here:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerende...ageindex=1#page

Celine was still Canadian the last I heard and could travel to Cuba if she chose. The fact is, the embargo has made life worse for Cubans not better.

[bush_cheney2004]

Celine was still Canadian the last I heard and could travel to Cuba if she chose. The fact is, the embargo has made life worse for Cubans not better.

Yeah, but she spends more time in Las Vegas than Canada or Cuba. The embargo was not about making anybody's life better. How has Cuba's policies made the lives of Americans better?

[myata]

To B-C:

I don't think mixing up private businesses (Inco, Falconridge) with state policies is going to help us clarify this matter. I've little doubt that Canada had its own foreign policy faults but none on the scale of arbitrarily prohibiting all business with a country which did it no harm. If you know otherwise, please share.

To jbg:

OK, you can't come up with better examples than Chile and Costa Rica. The first enjoyed massive US aid following CIA sponsored coup d'etat. The other does enjoy touristic influx but I'm not sure how it translates into welfare of the average population. My friends who visited the country recently reported seeing extreme poverty (people living in cardboard boxes) which I haven't noticed in Cuba. If you have any credible statistics, please share. That, in your own admission, brings Cuba to the top of performing countries in the region. I'd say, it's not too bad for half a century of total embargo.

[bush_cheney2004]

To B-C:

I don't think mixing up private businesses (Inco, Falconridge) with state policies is going to help us clarify this matter. I've little doubt that Canada had its own foreign policy faults but none on the scale of arbitrarily prohibiting all business with a country which did it no harm. If you know otherwise, please share.

Maybe you are too young to remember that South Africa did not "harm" Canada yet was subject to embargo in 1985:

Another example is Canada’s participation along with other Commonwealth countries in an embargo against South Africa in 1985. The sanctions banned imports of agricultural products, uranium, coal, iron, steel and some other commodities from South Africa. This was undertaken to impress upon the South African authorities the need to dismantle apartheid.

http://www.canadianeconomy.gc.ca/english/e...de_embargo.html

No doubt you will dance about this fact and explain that it was justified for "human rights", the same justification Canada used to bomb Serbian men, women, and children.

Also, Inco and Falconbridge are your versions of "Haliburton" or "Bechtel".....but some Canadians choose to ignore the obvious as if government policies are not complicit in raping and pillaging the land and peoples of Asia, Americas, and Africa.

Tell me about walking the talk again.....

[Wilber]

How has Cuba's policies made the lives of Americans better?

How have they made them worse?

[bush_cheney2004]

How have they made them worse?

1. Nationalization of private property without adequate compensation

2. Flashpoint for thermonuclear war (Missile Crisis)

3. Export of Maxist-Lenninism to Africa (e.g. Angola, Algeria, Zaire, Congo, Namibia, Rhodesia)

4. Mariel Boatlift - 125,000 economic and political refugees along with convicted criminals crashing American shores in 1980.

Now, I ask again, how has Fidel's Cuba made American lives better? Or is it not fair to ask the same question you asked about America's impact on Cubans?

[Wilber]

Now, I ask again, how has Fidel's Cuba made American lives better? Or is it not fair to ask the same question you asked about America's impact on Cubans?

I don't dispute that the Cuban government has done what it can to embarass and inconvenience the US. I am not talking about governments but the average citzen. The embargo has done nothing to loosen Castro's control over the country but it has had a major effect on its citizens.

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't dispute that the Cuban government has done what it can to embarass and inconvenience the US. I am not talking about governments but the average citzen. The embargo has done nothing to loosen Castro's control over the country but it has had a major effect on its citizens.

That's generally what an embargo does....it was never intended to make Fidel's Cuba a communist paradise. Canada used the exact same measures on South Africa, causing hardship for South Africans.

So I still press the question.....what has Cuba done to make life better for average American citizens?

[jbg]

Clinton's turnover of Elian Gonzales was a disgrace.

You don't believe a son is better off with their parent?

The father was not going to wind up raising it. At that age, from my information, the kids are communally raised.

[Wilber]

That's generally what an embargo does....it was never intended to make Fidel's Cuba a communist paradise. Canada used the exact same measures on South Africa, causing hardship for South Africans.

Something I disagreed with.

[Drea]

How has Cuba's policies made the lives of Americans better?

Who cares?

Why would you even think that a Cuban (or Canadian or Parisian, or Persian or green outer space alien) needs to worry whether or not they are "making life better for Americans"? The world does not revolve around "making life better for Americans" sheesh.

The question is... how has AMERICA's policies AFFECTED (not made better) the people of Cuba? Hmmmmmm?

[myata]

Maybe you are too young to remember that South Africa did not "harm" Canada yet was subject to embargo in 1985:

Another example is Canada’s participation along with other Commonwealth countries in an embargo against South Africa in 1985. The sanctions banned imports of agricultural products, uranium, coal, iron, steel and some other commodities from South Africa. This was undertaken to impress upon the South African authorities the need to dismantle apartheid.

http://www.canadianeconomy.gc.ca/english/e...de_embargo.html

No doubt you will dance about this fact and explain that it was justified for "human rights",

Now, let's take it one at a time.

Definitely the situation with South Africa was hugely different. There we were talking about colonial minority subjugating and enslaving majority of aboriginal population. Canada's position as member of Commonwealth was fully justified from from both moral and legal (apartheid and racism cannot be accepted as a state policy by a member of Commonwealth). In addition, it was a collective decision.

the same justification Canada used to bomb Serbian men, women, and children.

This deserves a separate discussion. I'm not versed in the history of that episode, but I agree that there may (potentially) have been issues with it, depending on the exact sequence of events. You're welcome to post more details for a discussion, but probably in another thread.

Also, Inco and Falconbridge are your versions of "Haliburton" or "Bechtel".....but some Canadians choose to ignore the obvious as if government policies are not complicit in raping and pillaging the land and peoples of Asia, Americas, and Africa.

Government cannot be held responsible for all acts of private businesses any more than those of country's citizens. It is however obliged to obey and enforce the law. If you know of specific cases where Canadian government failed this obligation, please post them here.

Embargo of Cuba, on the other hand, is absolutely a government policy for which it will and does bear moral and legal responsibility.

[bush_cheney2004]

Who cares?

Why would you even think that a Cuban (or Canadian or Parisian, or Persian or green outer space alien) needs to worry whether or not they are "making life better for Americans"? The world does not revolve around "making life better for Americans" sheesh.

The question is... how has AMERICA's policies AFFECTED (not made better) the people of Cuba? Hmmmmmm?

I was responding to another member's line of questioning...not your sensibilities vis-a-vis aliens.

To wit:

(Wilber @ Mar 18 2007, 01:39 PM)

What has the US embargo done to make the lives of Cubans better for the last 45 years?

Now to answer your question....who cares how AMERICA's policies AFFECTED the people of Cuba. They don't need AMERICA according to Fidel.

[bush_cheney2004]

Definitely the situation with South Africa was hugely different. There we were talking about colonial minority subjugating and enslaving majority of aboriginal population. Canada's position as member of Commonwealth was fully justified from from both moral and legal (apartheid and racism cannot be accepted as a state policy by a member of Commonwealth). In addition, it was a collective decision.

They were no more subjugated and enslaved that First Nations in Canada or the USA. Logically, Canada should have been embargoed, along with Australia (for treatment of Aboriginals). Moral and legal pronouncements are used when convenient, eh? IIRC, Canadians fought in the Boer Wars to further strengthen the Commonwealth's grip on South Africa. That was also a "collective decision". God Save the Queen and all that jazz.

This deserves a separate discussion. I'm not versed in the history of that episode, but I agree that there may (potentially) have been issues with it, depending on the exact sequence of events. You're welcome to post more details for a discussion, but probably in another thread.

Government cannot be held responsible for all acts of private businesses any more than those of country's citizens. It is however obliged to obey and enforce the law. If you know of specific cases where Canadian government failed this obligation, please post them here.

Embargo of Cuba, on the other hand, is absolutely a government policy for which it will and does bear moral and legal responsibility.

The embargo of Cuba by the United States is completely legal, as were the embargoes for Soviet Bloc nations during the Cold War. The morality of the matter is up for debate and is otherwise academic. Fidel says he does not need trade with the Yankee dogs. His wish has been granted.

We really should stay on topic, because any mention of South Africa, Haiti, East Timor, First Nations, Globalist Mining, or Kosovo makes some Canadians very uncomfortable when they are trying to be moral and upstanding about the human rights paradise that is Cuba.

I went to Cuba in the 1970's (Gitmo)...no big deal.

[Wilber]

Now to answer your question....who cares how AMERICA's policies AFFECTED the people of Cuba. They don't need AMERICA according to Fidel.

Exactly, the only concern is to get rid of Fidel regardless of the cost to the Cuban people. Sometimes I think that many Americans are so frustrated with the fact that they haven't been able to get rid of a tin pot dictator right next door for over 45 years that it colours everything they do regarding Cuba.

[bush_cheney2004]

Exactly, the only concern is to get rid of Fidel regardless of the cost to the Cuban people. Sometimes I think that many Americans are so frustrated with the fact that they haven't been able to get rid of a tin pot dictator right next door for over 45 years that it colours everything they do regarding Cuba.

Close...but no cigar. Cuba's 45 year old banishment is a political icon that will only die with Fidel (or his brother). The embargo is wonderfully simple and vindictive, with a life of its own. Remember, the US promised not to try any more dirty tricks on Fidel in 1962, so a continued embargo will just have to do.

Canada gets NAFTA....Cuba gets the finger. Some would claim that Cuba got the better deal.