US blockade of Cuba

[GostHacked]

Then it seem the only ones allowed to to business in Cuba is the United States Military. Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Pack it up and move it to the US mainland.

[Remiel]

The thing is, as it already came up in another thread here, the people who wan't their property back aren't talking about houses, they're talking about rich businesses, warehouses, plantations. I think that to satisfy what you're asking, the general populace of Cuba would be just as poor if they gave that all back as if they just live with the embargo, so why not just live with the embargo if it doesn't make any more sense for the common man to give back the wealth to people who decided to skip town instead of contribute to Cuba in some meaningful way?

Don't get me wrong, a lot of thing could be changed for the better and that we should try entice them to improve their political system, but to make it a condition of ending the embargo is to legitimize the embargo, which is bull in my opinion.

[Liam]

Is it really so hard to understand, Liam? The question is not whether or not Communism is a good philosophy or not.

Rather, why should US make it their business to teach others what to do, given their own not so stellar moral record in the matters? How many people (outside of US) do you think are there to take all those cermons on peace, democracy and liberty seriously? After Iraq, Chile and with Guantanamo in their backyard.

First, you were the one who claimed the majority chose communism. I disagree. I think many of the people who fought alongside Castro to overthrow Batista were not fighting to become a satellite of the USSR. Many of them were just looking to throw out a corrupt government.

I fully understand what you're saying, but what I don't understand is why you can't understand my point.

In my hypothetical have never once placed undue demands on the Cuban government. The things I would request of the Cuban government are the basics of a fair and free society (free press, open doors to information, freedom of conscience, freedom from political repression, freedom of self-determination and betterment). I didn't demand military or economic submission, I didn't demand a complete overhaul of the Cuban political system. I simply set out what I would ask the Cuban government to do (to treat its people like humans) in exchange for billions of dollars in US federal economic, commercial and scientific assistance, to bury the hatchet and open full diplomatic relations.

What I have offered are conditions for a deal. If the Cuban government doesn't want those things, they are 100% free to negotiate different terms or reject my offer. I think that if they did, it would be a terrible opportunity to miss out on, both for the government (which could still operate as a "socialist paradise" even if it accepted every one of my conditions) and for the people of Cuba who would be able to reunite with families and have some hope that their lives will get better.

I can't understand why you don't understand that I'm not forcing the Cuban government to change at the point of a bayonnet. They can say No and go on with life as they know it.

Personally, I'd rather place some conditions on generous offers of US economic aid rather than do what Canada and other countries do: provide millions in hard currency tourist dollars without a care for the well-being of the people trapped inside the only prison state in the Western Hemisphere.

[Liam]

The thing is, as it already came up in another thread here, the people who wan't their property back aren't talking about houses, they're talking about rich businesses, warehouses, plantations. I think that to satisfy what you're asking, the general populace of Cuba would be just as poor if they gave that all back as if they just live with the embargo, so why not just live with the embargo if it doesn't make any more sense for the common man to give back the wealth to people who decided to skip town instead of contribute to Cuba in some meaningful way?

Don't get me wrong, a lot of thing could be changed for the better and that we should try entice them to improve their political system, but to make it a condition of ending the embargo is to legitimize the embargo, which is bull in my opinion.

I admitted earlier that property claims of big businesses is something I haven't thought through. I am inclined to think it would be unfair and would present an undue burden on Cuba to give back huge corporate plantations, etc. But it should start with average citizens, homeowners who were forcibly moved or displaced.

Ending the embargo without getting some concessions from the Cuban government would legitimize government theft and political imprisonment. That's bull in my opinion.

[myata]

I can't understand why you don't understand that I'm not forcing the Cuban government to change at the point of a bayonnet. They can say No and go on with life as they know it.

Personally, I'd rather place some conditions on generous offers of US economic aid rather than do what Canada and other countries do: provide millions in hard currency tourist dollars without a care for the well-being of the people trapped inside the only prison state in the Western Hemisphere.

You mean, forcing them to change at the point of starvation? We aren't talking aid - it's about trade and free enterprise, of which the US professes at every corner and opportunity.

Whether it was a majority (which I agree I cannot prove with my less than complete knowledge of the region's history) is beyond the point - the bottom line is that the choice was made by the people and it's up to them to change it in their own time and on their own terms. US has no business going around telling people how they should go about their lives - maybe way in the future when they have cleaned their own act and most importantly, are asked for advice.

And finally, if you can recall, bayonnettes were in the game too at one point of time or another (Bay of Pigs; clandestine operations; etc). It's just that they proved less efficient and too embarassing, I guess.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Whether it was a majority (which I agree I cannot prove with my less than complete knowledge of the region's history) is beyond the point - the bottom line is that the choice was made by the people and it's up to them to change it in their own time and on their own terms. US has no business going around telling people how they should go about their lives - maybe way in the future when they have cleaned their own act and most importantly, are asked for advice.

Doesn't seem to stop Canada from doing the exact same thing in the name of so called "Human Rights". For example, Canada barks at China about "human rights abuses" on a routine basis, only to close trade deals anyway. Did China ask for advice?

[Liam]

You mean, forcing them to change at the point of starvation? We aren't talking aid - it's about trade and free enterprise, of which the US professes at every corner and opportunity.

Whether it was a majority (which I agree I cannot prove with my less than complete knowledge of the region's history) is beyond the point - the bottom line is that the choice was made by the people and it's up to them to change it in their own time and on their own terms. US has no business going around telling people how they should go about their lives - maybe way in the future when they have cleaned their own act and most importantly, are asked for advice.

And finally, if you can recall, bayonnettes were in the game too at one point of time or another (Bay of Pigs; clandestine operations; etc). It's just that they proved less efficient and too embarassing, I guess.

OK, let's back up a bit -- you do understand that this is all hypothetical, right? I mean, you do understand I'm not actually the president, that I can't really make this offer of US aid materialize tomorrow, right?

I see nothing wrong with moving US policy toward Cuba in the direction of offering a carrot instead of a stick. I'm offering them incentives, hypothetical incentives, to join the community of nations that honors civil liberties. Nothing the US has done to isolate Cuba has worked and nothing the Canada has done to embrace Cuba has worked. In my hypothetical, I suggest taking a new approach, a pure and simple agreement with the government of Cuba: you open your media to opposition groups and we'll extend to you a zero-interest credit line of $100 billion. Allow opposing political groups to run for office and we'll open 10 electricity-generating plants and 10 hospitals equipped with with cutting edge technology. This is all hypothetical, it isn't really real you know.

You, though, are approaching this like it could actually happen. Sorry, I didn't intend for this silly theoretical exercise to threaten the Cuba you know, the one with the secret police and prisoners of conscience and the hard currency hotels with rum punches for pennies that are completely insulated from the reality of Cuban life. I'm sorry that you want to reject a hypothetical initiative to nudge the Cuban government toward baseline international standards with regard to the treatment of its citizens.

[myata]

OK, Liam, carrot for what exactly? What has US to show for about 100 years of free hand in the region and all the (cheap) liberty talk? Mexico? Guatemala? Bolivia? What is there for the people of Cuba in the capitalist paradize other then serving foreigners and the rich elite and seeing their land and resources sold out for pennies?

I cannot pretend being an expert on Cuba, but we did travel around a bit, to several villages, a city, on foot as well as in the car. Yes their houses look run down and in disrepair. But they do have houses. Yes cars are of 2-5 generations back. But buses are running (and people can take them). Yes their salaries are very low (~ 15 Can, general worker), but they do have jobs. And the kids generally look taken care of. Not eating garbage from the dumps. How can you say they want to exchange what they have for the life of perpetual poverty for the huge majority of population, like in the rest of South America? I can't, in all honesty. Maybe sticking in with their "prison state" (or whatever you want to call it) is their best bet, here and in this time?

In any case, whether or not communism is good for Cuba is not the question here. At issue is that self righteous urge of America to teach other people what they should do (and force them into doing it if there's a chance). That is wrong and counter productive for the US itself in the long run. As we begin to see right now, e.g. in the recent credibility rating where it's tied down right there with its arch enemy, Iran.

[Liam]

It's a hy-po-the-ti-cal. Do you understand?

OK, fine. You convinced me you're right. The US is always evil and Cuba is a worker's paradise and the Cuban people are aggrieved, not by their own police state but by evil westerners (i.e., Americans) who wish to enslave them and make them eat from trashcans. You're 100% right. There is no altruism behind my hypothetical because, as an American, I by definition seek to oppress the Cuban worker. How dare I give Cuba an opening to dramatically improve their standard of living in exchange for political concessions for its people. how dare I?? You are absolutely right.

From now on, I'm with you on this. We should just selfishly think of ourselves and not worry one little bit about the people we leave behind as we jet back to Toronto or Philadelphia or Glasgow. Afterall, the opening of Cuba to tourism has *so* had a beneficial impact on the lives of Cubans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varela_Project

All those daiquiris and cigars you've consumed have really done wonders for Cubans. And you're right: in an oppressive police state, one where dissenting thought can be punishable by a lifetime of imprisonment, change can and should only come from within. I'll remind the next guy who is given between 6 to 28 years of hard labor by organizing a legal petition drive. But who am I, as a filthy, evil, conniving American to ask for better for the Cuban people? In fact, by just offering Cuba a world class cancer center or upgraded power grid in exchange for freedom of the press is just sooooo evil and oh soooo poisonously cynical of me.

[geoffrey]

If Cuba is so good, I never understood why Floridians aren't rushing to Cuba on their 50 foot yachts, instead of Cubans sailing their plywood rafts into Miami.

Hmm... got to wonder sometimes, silly Americans, who wouldn't choosen economic oppression and poverty over the US?

[jbg]

If Cuba is so good, I never understood why Floridians aren't rushing to Cuba on their 50 foot yachts, instead of Cubans sailing their plywood rafts into Miami.

Hmm... got to wonder sometimes, silly Americans, who wouldn't choosen economic oppression and poverty over the US?

Or why Americans aren't defecting to Venezuela.

Come to think of it, these Spanish-speaking countries are so much better governed than those in the Anglosphere, no?

[myata]

No it's more simple than that. With all the oppression, they're doing better than most of the South America, majority of population wise. That is with all the money, help, assistance and "advice" invested by the US over the decades. I'm sure Cuban people can and will do with the regime in the appropriate manner, but on their own terms. US simply don't have the standing to tell them what to do. Its hands are too dirty for that.

(I could also go on and draw your attention to the multiple instances of brutal dictatorships in Latin America, which also happened to be America's friends because they pledged to fight communism. Just to question, whether it's really liberty and democracy US is looking to promote? Or, perhaps, absolute submission to their interests, by another name?)

[bush_cheney2004]

No it's more simple than that. With all the oppression, they're doing better than most of the South America, majority of population wise. That is with all the money, help, assistance and "advice" invested by the US over the decades. I'm sure Cuban people can and will do with the regime in the appropriate manner, but on their own terms. US simply don't have the standing to tell them what to do. Its hands are too dirty for that.

Do you think Canada's hands are not "dirty" in such matters? Doesn't prevent Ottawa from crowing about "human rights abuses" all over the world. Never mind that imperialist Canada has padded its economy with war materials exports to kill Arabs, Asians, Africans, and South Americans, not to mention global mining interests that rape far away lands and people.

Hell, Canada's military was prepared to ignore a skeptical PM Diefenbaker during the Cuban Missile Crisis to support American military action in Cuba and any resulting conflagration:

The U.S. asked the Canadian government to move our military to an advanced state of readiness. Diefenbaker did not comply. Nonetheless, Canada's military moved immediately to advanced readiness without the Prime Minister's authorization. Canada's chief of naval staff ordered the Atlantic fleet to sea. Canada's Minister of Defense ordered the military's Chiefs of Staff to special preparedness.

[Wilber]

What has the US embargo done to make the lives of Cubans better for the last 45 years?

[bush_cheney2004]

What has the US embargo done to make the lives of Cubans better for the last 45 years?

No Brittney Spears or Celine Dion.

More seriously, the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1989 has led much more to the decline of services and goods in Cuban lives than any period in the past 45 years. Indeed, before 1990, Cuba was advertised as a strong and vibrant defiance of El Bloqueo by Yankee dogs. Thorough analysis here:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerende...ageindex=1#page

[myata]

The fact that the regime survived withdrawal of its most import lifeline of support in the 90s, tells us that perhaps it enjoys more popular support than US propaganda would want us to believe. It is being eroded slowly not by the american "liberty" hoopla but rather by the very low level of individual income, which state run economy is only able to provide. It may lead to the problems for the regime in the future, if it does not come up with some kind of working economic liberalization strategy. But I doubt that Cuba would rush to swap their socialist state for the corrupt and extremely polarized social systems of its neighbours which bring nothing but extreme poverty to the majority of population.

[bush_cheney2004]

The fact that the regime survived withdrawal of its most import lifeline of support in the 90s, tells us that perhaps it enjoys more popular support than US propaganda would want us to believe. It is being eroded slowly not by the american "liberty" hoopla but rather by the very low level of individual income, which state run economy is only able to provide...

So don't blame the failed Commies....blame the successful Yankees!

If things were so swell, what is the problema? Let the Americans enjoy their embargo (it's not a blockade) while Cuba triumphantly moves on to bigger and better things in 1950's era Yankee automotive products. We'll just forget about the boatlifts, refugees, and other anomalies of Paradise Cuba.

[myata]

The problem is american hypocrisy which preaches freedom, free enterprise, whatever, while never failing to drop a few crumbs to any brutal dictator which happens to do their liking, or flex muscles against harmless even democratic states that don't. But people aren't stupid, and at this point of time, most of this "liberty/freedom" professing falls on deaf ears (outside of land of free that is). Walk the walk, everybody knows how you do the talk.

[bush_cheney2004]

The problem is american hypocrisy which preaches freedom, free enterprise, whatever, while never failing to drop a few crumbs to any brutal dictator which happens to do their liking, or flex muscles against harmless even democratic states that don't. But people aren't stupid, and at this point of time, most of this "liberty/freedom" professing falls on deaf ears (outside of land of free that is). Walk the walk, everybody knows how you do the talk.

Agreed...but why don't you hold your own nation (Canada) to the same standard(s). Preaching democracy, freedom, and human rights while pillaging and killing in far away lands. Are you blind to this reality?

[myata]

I hold all countries to the same standard. However, which particular episode do you have in mind? Afganistan? Personally, I was in doubt from the start that the mission has much chance of success, but it's a different situation. Going to Afganistan was a collective decision, authorised by the UN. American embargo of Cuba is unilateral, condemned by the UN multiple times.

BTW, I'm really curious to know what was (is) the formal cause for the embargo in the first place?

[bush_cheney2004]

I hold all countries to the same standard. However, which particular episode do you have in mind? Afganistan? Personally, I was in doubt from the start that the mission has much chance of success, but it's a different situation. Going to Afganistan was a collective decision, authorised by the UN. American embargo of Cuba is unilateral, condemned by the UN multiple times.

BTW, I'm really curious to know what was (is) the formal cause for the embargo in the first place?

The original embargo was for arms, but evolved into a total economic affair because of Fidel's agrarian nationalization without adequate compensation and chummy nuclear hijinx with the Soviets. The embargo is officially known as the Cuban Democracy Act today; Helms-Burton was added for extra measure in 1996. President Clinton expanded the embargo even more.

Forget the obvious examples of Canadians invading and killin' in Afghanistan.....look at Canadian/NATO actions in Serbia (not UN sanctioned), or how about Haiti or East Timor? Know anything about Inco or Falconbridge (mining) in so called Third World nations? Even the "evil" depleted uranium used in armor penetrating munitions comes from Canada.

Tell me about walking the talk again......

[jdobbin]

The original embargo was for arms, but evolved into a total economic affair because of Fidel's agrarian nationalization without adequate compensation and chummy nuclear hijinx with the Soviets. The embargo is officially known as the Cuban Democracy Act today; Helms-Burton was added for extra measure in 1996. President Clinton expanded the embargo even more.

Forget the obvious examples of Canadians invading and killin' in Afghanistan.....look at Canadian/NATO actions in Serbia (not UN sanctioned), or how about Haiti or East Timor? Know anything about Inco or Falconbridge (mining) in so called Third World nations? Even the "evil" depleted uranium used in armor penetrating munitions comes from Canada.

Tell me about walking the talk again......

So if Canada is so bad, why does the U.S. not have an embargo it?

[bush_cheney2004]

So if Canada is so bad, why does the U.S. not have an embargo it?

Because Canada has been a wonderful partner in economic and political exploitation the world over. It has behaved in the exact opposite way as Fidel's Cuba, welcoming foreign ownership and investment from east to west. Canada also does not have a resident ex-pat population in the USA to stoke political partisanship like the Cubans do in Florida. There are even Canadians who threaten to join the States (whatever that means) during domestic squabbles over Quebec, separatism, equalization payments, and representative government.

Canada is not bad.....it simply acts in self interest....the same as any nation state.

[jdobbin]

Because Canada has been a wonderful partner in economic and political exploitation the world over. It has behaved in the exact opposite behavior as Fidel's Cuba, welcoming foreign ownership and investment from east to west. Canada also does not have a resident ex-pat population in the USA to stoke political partisanship like the Cubans do in Florida. There are even Canadians who threaten to join the States (whatever that means) during domestic squabbles over Quebec, separatism, equalization payments, and representative government.

Canada is not bad.....it simply acts in self interest....the same as any nation state.

Still a bit confused as to why Cuba rates an embargo over every other country in the world.

[jbg]

No it's more simple than that. With all the oppression, they're doing better than most of the South America, majority of population wise.

*snip*

Just to question, whether it's really liberty and democracy US is looking to promote? Or, perhaps, absolute submission to their interests, by another name?)

How about a fairer comparison, to Costa Rica? Geographically, Cuba is more similar in location to Costa Rica than Argentina or Chile. And I doubt Cubans overall are doing better than Chileans. Maybe they're doing well compared to Venezuelans, Bolivians or people in drug-laden Colombia.