Pig tactics threatened

[jbg]

Pig tactics threatened

Aftenposten

Feb 27, 2007

<Excerpt>

Norwegian anti-immigration politicians in Bergen have promised to chase off Muslims with pigs feet and squealing noises if Bergen's central square is used for prayers.

The leader of the Demokratene, an extreme populist party formed by outcasts of the populist Progress Party, Vidar Kleppe, said Wednesday that he backed the remarks of city council representative Kenneth Rasmussen.

Rasmussen reacted with threats of porcine tactics after Labour Party politician Jerad Abdelmajid said that the city's Muslims could take their Friday prayers in Torgallmenningen, Bergen's central square, when they will be without a mosque from March 31. Building of a new mosque is behind schedule.

Abdelmajid's announcement provoked heated public debate.

"I completely agree with Kenneth Rasmussen that Muslims having their Friday prayers with their butts in the air in the city center is no solution. They can find other places," Kleppe told news agency NTB.

Kenneth Rasmussen told newspaper Dagbladet's web site that Bergen residents should hang up pig's feet and play pig squeals over loudspeakers to scare off Muslims, and claimed these tactics worked when he was a soldier for the United Nations in Somalia and Lebanon in the 1990s.

Rest HERE: http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1665371.ece

If we don't start taking this kind of action, Political Correctness may succeed in bring to an end this great 200 year experiment in human freedom.

[Canadian Blue]

Sorry I couldn't resist posting this video.

http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/in...?ml_video=82843

Whats wrong with muslims praying, I don't feel threatened by muslims in my community.

[jbg]

Sorry I couldn't resist posting this video.

http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/in...?ml_video=82843

Whats wrong with muslims praying, I don't feel threatened by muslims in my community.

But in public, in the central square? That's OK, I suppose, at the Vatican, but not in a secular country such as Norway. Also, despite its appearance on "Comedy Central" this story is apparently true (link to article, excerpts below):

K.I.A., that's the Katy Islamic Association, plan to build a mosque here.

"It's not an appropriate place to have a mosque or church," said resident Barbara Simpson.

It isn't going over real well.

"As a house of worship, they shouldn't be disturbing the peace and tranquility of 15 homes," said resident John Wetmore.

Neighbors tell us they're concerned about traffic and drainage and a little fear of the unknown. Some of the homeowners even offered to buy the land back for more than a million dollars. The K.I.A. doesn't seem very interested in the offers.

"We're not going anywhere," said Katy Islamic Association member Alvi Muzfar.

So it seems the community at the end of Baker Road has a pretty good fight. But this fight has gone much farther than many between two neighbors. You see in these fights, sometimes neighbors throw mud at one another. In this instance, they're wallowing in it.

Craig Baker owns pigs. He's the guy behind the second big yellow sign on Baker Road. That's the one announcing Friday night pig races.

"What does it matter, I can do whatever I want with my land right," asked landowner Craig Baker.

Sure can. But aren't pigs on the property line racing on a Friday night a little offensive to a Muslim neighbor?

[guyser]

If we don't start taking this kind of action, Political Correctness may succeed in bring to an end this great 200 year experiment in human freedom.

Unless and as I suspect, that the Square has been in use for other religious type ceremonies . Then why deny one and not the other?

But I support Craig Baker and his friday night races. Thats to me is fair.

[Figleaf]

Sorry I couldn't resist posting this video.

http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/in...?ml_video=82843

Whats wrong with muslims praying, I don't feel threatened by muslims in my community.

But in public, in the central square? That's OK, I suppose, at the Vatican, but not in a secular country such as Norway.

EXCUSE me? What's wrong with praying in a free democracy? Norway is a free democracy and supports normal Western-style freedom of expression. If a Muslim prays in a public space, so what?

Now, cordoning off or setting aside part of public space for someone's prayer would be a different story, but simple prayer is just as much a protected form of expression as making a speech, or painting yourself bronze and pretending to be a statue.

"What does it matter, I can do whatever I want with my land right," asked landowner Craig Baker.

Sure can. But aren't pigs on the property line racing on a Friday night a little offensive to a Muslim neighbor?

If Muslims want to take offence at Craig's choice of activities, that's up to them. But no government should let 'offence' become a signal for action by the authorities.

[Black Dog]

Of course if this were a group of chasidim asking to bonk their heads against the wall in a public space, jbg would most certainly be okay with pelting them with bacon bits. Right?

[Charles Anthony]

If a racist-bigot assaults somebody with a pig foot or any other implement of destruction, that racist-bigot should expect to be beaten back.

[White Doors]

Of course if this were a group of chasidim asking to bonk their heads against the wall in a public space, jbg would most certainly be okay with pelting them with bacon bits. Right?

real or simulated?

[blueblood]

I wonder what people would say if Billy and Franklin Graham had an evangelical service there. After all people are allowed to pray and gather...

[geoffrey]

I'm assuming that if the Norweigan Christian leader (they have their own Church) decided to convert the square into a Cathedral for a few months and hold services several times a day, people would be pissed.

The muslims can build a damned mosque if they want to have their prayers. It's not the rest of the Norweigans responsibility to deal with their construction issues.

[jbg]

Of course if this were a group of chasidim asking to bonk their heads against the wall in a public space, jbg would most certainly be okay with pelting them with bacon bits. Right?

Sure would. I carry no flag for Hasidim, who consider other Jews to be garbage. By the way, their tolerance track record is not good.

[scribblet]

If it were Christians wanting to pray in a public square I imagine there would be a huge outcry, at least in the U.S. Heck even the easter bunny is now under attack.

Easter Bunny Banned

ST. PAUL, MINN---Peter Cottontail won’t be hopping down the bunny trail at St. Paul City Hall.

First there were the attacks on Santa Claus and Christmas and now it’s the Easter Bunny.

A display featuring a toy Easter bunny, pastel-colored eggs and a sign with the words ‘Happy Easter” was removed from the lobby of City Hall this week by the city’s human rights director because he said a citizen had complained and he was afraid it might offend non-Christians.....http://www.northcountrygazette.org/articles/032406BunnyBan.html

[Black Dog]

Sure would. I carry no flag for Hasidim, who consider other Jews to be garbage. By the way, their tolerance track record is not good.

Ah bravo: you're not a bigot, just childish. It's possible to disagree with the issue of praye rin public (and believe me, I'm no fan of the idea), but to do so in a civil manner.

[moderateamericain]

Here is my issue with this whole thing, Christians are finding their hollidays more and more restricted by minority groups who dont wanna see there religious symbols in public places. For example, in a small town ive seen in the news that a hindu family forced the city council to take down the christmas tree in front of the government office because it was insensitive to their beliefs, i believe the town was something like 95 percent christian believing. My issue here is that minorties cry foul with anything that doesnt toe the line with their beliefs but expect to be able to practice religion anywhere, anytime? This may mean im intolerant but i feel the same rules should apply to everyone. I dont have a problem with a mosque being built, but i do have a problem with being a part of a community and being told that i cant express the religion that almost 100 percent of the people around me practice. Religious freedom should be the same for all.

[guyser]

Here is my issue with this whole thing, Christians are finding their hollidays more and more restricted by minority groups who dont wanna see there religious symbols in public places. For example, in a small town ive seen in the news that a hindu family forced the city council to take down the christmas tree in front of the government office because it was insensitive to their beliefs, i believe the town was something like 95 percent christian believing. My issue here is that minorties cry foul with anything that doesnt toe the line with their beliefs but expect to be able to practice religion anywhere, anytime? This may mean im intolerant but i feel the same rules should apply to everyone. I dont have a problem with a mosque being built, but i do have a problem with being a part of a community and being told that i cant express the religion that almost 100 percent of the people around me practice. Religious freedom should be the same for all.

I prefer Freedon From religion.

Christian holidays are not being restricted. Patently false. No one anywhere has restricted your ability to celebrate Easter or Christmas. What has been done is the removal in public spaces of Christian icons , public spaces paid for by all americans, jewish, muslim, Sikh etc etc.....

Maybe, just maybe , that Hindu family wanted Kolams or dung to be shown in the same space during Pongal? Were they told no?

You said.."This may mean im intolerant but i feel the same rules should apply to everyone. " That is what is called a double standard. What is it you want , the same rules or intolerance?

Town squares are normal places to hold religious celebrations open to all , and open to all to hold one. This is no different than the Pope holding his world youth days celebration in a large public meeting place (town square) to the Muslim wanting a large place to pray for a special holiday to the Chinese wanting to hold a large gathering for New Years.

Sorry moderateamericain , but sentiments like yours almost always come across as intolerant rants disguised as "they" wanting more than "us".

[blueblood]

Town squares are normal places to hold religious celebrations open to all , and open to all to hold one. This is no different than the Pope holding his world youth days celebration in a large public meeting place (town square) to the Muslim wanting a large place to pray for a special holiday to the Chinese wanting to hold a large gathering for New Years.

Try holding all that at once. If those Norweigan's are so peeved, just call in Franklin and Billy Graham, they'd go for sure. Putting those two groups together will ensure nobody gets the square and the riot squad will collect some overtime pay.

[moderateamericain]

Here is my issue with this whole thing, Christians are finding their hollidays more and more restricted by minority groups who dont wanna see there religious symbols in public places. For example, in a small town ive seen in the news that a hindu family forced the city council to take down the christmas tree in front of the government office because it was insensitive to their beliefs, i believe the town was something like 95 percent christian believing. My issue here is that minorties cry foul with anything that doesnt toe the line with their beliefs but expect to be able to practice religion anywhere, anytime? This may mean im intolerant but i feel the same rules should apply to everyone. I dont have a problem with a mosque being built, but i do have a problem with being a part of a community and being told that i cant express the religion that almost 100 percent of the people around me practice. Religious freedom should be the same for all.

I prefer Freedon From religion.

Christian holidays are not being restricted. Patently false. No one anywhere has restricted your ability to celebrate Easter or Christmas. What has been done is the removal in public spaces of Christian icons , public spaces paid for by all americans, jewish, muslim, Sikh etc etc.....

Maybe, just maybe , that Hindu family wanted Kolams or dung to be shown in the same space during Pongal? Were they told no?

You said.."This may mean im intolerant but i feel the same rules should apply to everyone. " That is what is called a double standard. What is it you want , the same rules or intolerance?

Town squares are normal places to hold religious celebrations open to all , and open to all to hold one. This is no different than the Pope holding his world youth days celebration in a large public meeting place (town square) to the Muslim wanting a large place to pray for a special holiday to the Chinese wanting to hold a large gathering for New Years.

Sorry moderateamericain , but sentiments like yours almost always come across as intolerant rants disguised as "they" wanting more than "us".

The only issue i have with what you say is calling it a rant, in order for it to be a rant, id have to passionate or angry about it, the truth of the matter is that i wont lose one wink of sleep over it either way. However, I dont believe that the majority in this particular situation should have to suffer for the want of a very few. Public place or not. So if that makes me Intolerant about religious issues, heres the real skinny. I can live with that.

[Black Dog]

I re-read the article again and the stupidity of the oponnents is even more apparent. It's a public square. If Muslims or Hare Karishnas or anyone else choose to congregate there for any activity within the law, that is their right.

The comparison between this and instances where government buildings have taken down religious displays is not a valid one. The difference, obviously, is that state-sanctioned religious displays can be construed as a state endorsement of a particular religion. This does not apply to the actions of individuals in a public space such as a town square.

ModAm:

Christians are finding their hollidays more and more restricted by minority groups who dont wanna see there religious symbols in public places.

How is that restricting? I don't see what public displays of religious imagery have to do with private religious practices.

[blueblood]

I re-read the article again and the stupidity of the oponnents is even more apparent. It's a public square. If Muslims or Hare Karishnas or anyone else choose to congregate there for any activity within the law, that is their right.

The comparison between this and instances where government buildings have taken down religious displays is not a valid one. The difference, obviously, is that state-sanctioned religious displays can be construed as a state endorsement of a particular religion. This does not apply to the actions of individuals in a public space such as a town square.

ModAm:

Christians are finding their hollidays more and more restricted by minority groups who dont wanna see there religious symbols in public places.

How is that restricting? I don't see what public displays of religious imagery have to do with private religious practices.

I'd agree with you except there's one small problem, a member of the government endorsed that they could do friday night prayers there, which IMV is the state meddling in religious affairs. I have no problem with them going there, but the gov't did grease the wheels, which I think should be the issue.

What I'd be interested in seeing is how far the state will meddle in this. Since it is a public square and anyone can use it, will the state quell protests that might pop up there, what if they did decide to get the two graham's to have a friday night brew ha ha. The state should have stayed out of it. It's a two way street, if they want friday night prayers, they should be prepared to put up with friday night protests.

[Black Dog]

I'd agree with you except there's one small problem, a member of the government endorsed that they could do friday night prayers there, which IMV is the state meddling in religious affairs. I have no problem with them going there, but the gov't did grease the wheels, which I think should be the issue.

I would expect that that's probably something along the lines of giving permits for any type of large gathering in a public venue. There's my interpretation.

What I'd be interested in seeing is how far the state will meddle in this. Since it is a public square and anyone can use it, will the state quell protests that might pop up there, what if they did decide to get the two graham's to have a friday night brew ha ha. The state should have stayed out of it. It's a two way street, if they want friday night prayers, they should be prepared to put up with friday night protests.

Certainly, provided those protests are peaceful and within the law. I don't know if chasing people around with pig limbs qualifies.

I would also add that even a ardent secularist like me doesn't see the public expression of religious bleifs as an attack on our values.

[guyser]

The only issue i have with what you say is calling it a rant, in order for it to be a rant, id have to passionate or angry about it, the truth of the matter is that i wont lose one wink of sleep over it either way. However, I dont believe that the majority in this particular situation should have to suffer for the want of a very few. Public place or not. So if that makes me Intolerant about religious issues, heres the real skinny. I can live with that.

And now you know why I used the term "almost always". I was not trying to be persnickety .

The majority have not suffered in any way. Lets be honest, suffer is a poor word to use to describe this action. The Christians did not suffer because a tree was removed from a public place. The powers that be must have realized that instead of allowing all religious icons to be displayed, they decided rightfully to shut down ANY icons being displayed.

I am willing to bet (uh oh here comes trouble) that if 95% of your town is Christian, that the suffering might occur if the Muslims were allowed to set up a Mohammed statue (not that they can Muhammed cant be reproduced) or the two Jews in town wanted a menorrah prominently displayed in the same town square.

But you dop contradict yourself when you post that you "wont lose sleep over it either way" , yet then go on to say that you dont care if you are intolerant. Dont you find that at least a bit strnage?

[Black Dog]

More religious nuttery...

A group of Israeli women are fighting back against what one called "Taliban-like" Jewish fundamentalists who order women to sit in the back of the bus and to abstain from wearing "immodest" clothing on public bus lines. The women have filed a lawsuit in Israel's high court aimed at reforming bus lines used primarily by ultra-Orthodox Jews. Some of the women see the bus dispute as part of a larger struggle against the growing influence and radicalization of the ultra-Orthodox in Israel.

Also of interest from the same article:

Before a gay pride march last fall, Haredi men rioted nightly for weeks, forcing organizers to hold a toned-down rally in a heavily guarded stadium instead of a public march.

I thought it surprising that this kind of thing would be happening in the Only Democracy In The Middle East . thought it would juxtapose neatly with the hissy fits that greet each and every story involving even a certain other Middle Eastern religion.

Obviously, it's nothing like the barbarous and vile practice of punishing rape victims, but it's interesting all the same.

[moderateamericain]

The only issue i have with what you say is calling it a rant, in order for it to be a rant, id have to passionate or angry about it, the truth of the matter is that i wont lose one wink of sleep over it either way. However, I dont believe that the majority in this particular situation should have to suffer for the want of a very few. Public place or not. So if that makes me Intolerant about religious issues, heres the real skinny. I can live with that.

And now you know why I used the term "almost always". I was not trying to be persnickety .

The majority have not suffered in any way. Lets be honest, suffer is a poor word to use to describe this action. The Christians did not suffer because a tree was removed from a public place. The powers that be must have realized that instead of allowing all religious icons to be displayed, they decided rightfully to shut down ANY icons being displayed.

I am willing to bet (uh oh here comes trouble) that if 95% of your town is Christian, that the suffering might occur if the Muslims were allowed to set up a Mohammed statue (not that they can Muhammed cant be reproduced) or the two Jews in town wanted a menorrah prominently displayed in the same town square.

But you dop contradict yourself when you post that you "wont lose sleep over it either way" , yet then go on to say that you dont care if you are intolerant. Dont you find that at least a bit strnage?

i think what i need here is a better example, In Dearborn Michigan, residents are complaining about the call to prayer chants that are played over the microphones every day. Im not sure what time the last prayer is but in a predomently NON-Islamic country i could see how this would be aggrivating. I personally, wouldnt want to have to listen to it as I sit down to dinner (my intolerance showing) You are probably on to something when you say that public buildings should probably display NO religious symbols of any kind, thats probably the simplest solution. However, I think the main opposition to taking these things down is not a desire to harm other people from other cultures, but because people enjoy seeing christmas trees and etc. Now i know i can speak for everyone but there wouldnt be a public outcry about it if nobody cared.

As far as me saying i wouldnt lose sleep over it, i guess what i mean is im indifferent towards it either way, however if i had it my way the christmas things would stay simply because i appreciate them. When it comes to trivial things like this, to me its something i think about with a passing curosity where my own opinion is basically based on my own beliefs. On larger issues, i put more thought into them. (ex war, politics, economics, etc.) Hope that helps you understand what i mean.

[jbg]

Perhaps some porcine activity in Dearborn would restore a bit of equilibrium and quiet.

[guyser]

i think what i need here is a better example, In Dearborn Michigan, residents are complaining about the call to prayer chants that are played over the microphones every day. Im not sure what time the last prayer is but in a predomently NON-Islamic country i could see how this would be aggrivating. I personally, wouldnt want to have to listen to it as I sit down to dinner (my intolerance showing) You are probably on to something when you say that public buildings should probably display NO religious symbols of any kind, thats probably the simplest solution.

If you were to protest about the public calling to prayer (5x's a day IIRC) tomorrow I would support you .Once a week is my limitation.

And if the catholic church wanted to ring the bells 5 tmes a day, they too would encounter my wrath(not that they would care mind you)

And I may even be hypocriticl too.....at my cottage one of the churches that is close to the lake has always rung a bell as a "time piece" They ring at noon, 3 and 6PM. As a kid I never wore a watch, but always knew when to leave for home and dinner. To this day I rarely wear a watch, especially when I am at the lake, as I am always reminded of the time when the bells ring. I grew up with it and love it.