Who is to blame for the demise of traditional marriage

[geoffrey]

What the state has to do with marriage is beyond me, it's a secular country in Canada last time I checked.

The state can administer any benefits following the Charter, not discriminating based on race or gender or sexual orientation for that matter. Gay couples, black couples, purple ones too all get their benefits by signing some sort of civil contract with the state... we're a couple, give us our benefits, end of story.

What people call it belongs in the private domain amongst individuals. IMO, the government has no right to extend marriage to gays... just as it has no right to take it away or to prevent two gay people from saying they are 'married.'

The government should just get out of the marriage game and get into the properly administering civil benefits.

[Catchme]

leafless said: Couples who get married regarding the 'traditional wedding', generally have a commitment and overall plan concerning their future life together and therefore could be considered more responsible than co-habitat couples who basically have a no strings attached relationship.

What is your definition of a "traditional marriage" and where is it derived from?

IOW it is an ongoing test relationship minus responsibility which could equate to irresponsibility and commitment and is bad news for children who could be raised minus solid guidance.

How is it a ongoing test relationship? And what responsibility is it minus? Why would it be lacking commitment anymore than a "marriage"? And what solid guidance would be missing?

You put a lot of coulds in there and those could's could be present in a marriage.

Relating to 'Pandora's box' - means all in all, is a combination of lack of support for traditional marriage coupled with common law arrangements, different religions with different views and religious laws concerning marriages in combination with SSM, all guaranteed in keeping the legal community very happy and marriage itself, a very complex ordeal.

Interesting that you equate marriage with an ordeal.

What lack of support for a "traditional" marriage? And where are you driving "traditional" marriage from?

And I am still waiting to hear what you have to say about "tradional" marriage being one of the building block of canada, and how is it a so?

Your lack of commentary on the substance of what you saying, by way of using: "traditional" "building blocks of Canada" and "mutli-culturalism destroying marriage" are suggestive of the fact you may be/are regurgitating something you have heard from the pulpit and it sounded good so you picked it up, but you have no clear idea of what those words and phrases actually mean.

[jbg]

Are you speaking from your own experience? My traditional marriage is doing just fine.

Ditto.

[Remiel]

I think people perhaps have too fuzzy a view of the " good ol' days " of marriage. I seriously doubt that, as a rule, there is a lower chance of having a good and happy marriage now than there was thirty to fifty years ago. I think the only thing that has *really* changed is that people aren't expected to stay in bad marriages like they used to be back in the " good ol' days " . So really, I think it's kind of a non issue.

[Leafless]

Are you speaking from your own experience? My traditional marriage is doing just fine.

Ditto.

Likewise.

[Drea]

In 1983, at the age of 18 I got married.

At 21 I went off the pill as "we -- his whole friggin' family" decided it was time for us to have children.

At 21 I looked at myself in the mirror and asked "Are you ready for this? Are you old enough to have children? Is this what you really want?"

My answer was a resounding "no!"

So I left. At age 21 I enrolled in college. I partied, worked and studied throughout my entire 20's. What a blast I had! What great fun experiences!

Had I been stuck in my traditional marriage with no means of escape (divorce) I would have been miserable -- a miserable wife and mother.

No thanks.

I now live with an awesome man (now that I am old enough to make a committment ) and one day we will publicly and legally decry our love and committment for one another in a ceremony.

[Leafless]

Interesting that you equate marriage with an ordeal.

What lack of support for a "traditional" marriage? And where are you driving "traditional" marriage from?

And I am still waiting to hear what you have to say about "traditional" marriage being one of the building block of canada, and how is it a so?

If you are in some sort of denial that marriage when combined with to-days feminist demands and materialism and unreal expectations does not constitute marriage being an ordeal, I don't know what does. The stats that I provided indicate this and that is only divorces and does not include legal separations, common law break up's, and walk aways.

Previous traditional Christian marriages in Canada, did provide the majority building blocks to make Canada the country it is to-day with government catering to the will of the population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding

This produced civilized cities and towns, with the majority of Canada's population adhering to Christian values.

If you have any evidence this is not the case, please post it.

Why are so critical and hateful concerning the success Christianity had with the building of Canada?

[jbg]

I think the only thing that has *really* changed is that people aren't expected to stay in bad marriages like they used to be back in the " good ol' days " . So really, I think it's kind of a non issue.

People may have worked things out more back in the day. Most good marriages, including mine and most of the people I work with and know as friends, go through rough patches. Most of the time those pass.

If people head for the exits immediately, they never get that opportunity, and are then saddled with the economic costs of maintaining two households. Remember, all a judge can do is order a husband to pay money. The divorce judge doesn't print money that was never there for the ex-spouse's benefit, and in many cases economic reverses contribute to the marital problems in the first place.

[Remiel]

Don't get me wrong, JBG, I do think people should try to work out their problems first, but some marriages just aren't meant to or shouldn't be, and a lot of those are getting dissolved now, as opposed to when divorcing made you some kind of social pariah and you had to stick it out because the abuse at the hands of the community could be even worse in ways.

[Catchme]

Interesting that you equate marriage with an ordeal.

What lack of support for a "traditional" marriage? And where are you driving "traditional" marriage from?

And I am still waiting to hear what you have to say about "traditional" marriage being one of the building block of canada, and how is it a so?

If you are in some sort of denial that marriage when combined with to-days feminist demands and materialism and unreal expectations does not constitute marriage being an ordeal, I don't know what does. The stats that I provided indicate this and that is only divorces and does not include legal separations, common law break up's, and walk aways.

Ah, so you think that equality demands are damaging marriages, those pesky women demanding their rights and to be treated as humans, eh?! What responsibility do menhave in this breakdown in marriages?

Previous traditional Christian marriages in Canada, did provide the majority building blocks to make Canada the country it is to-day with government catering to the will of the population.

This produced civilized cities and towns, with the majority of Canada's population adhering to Christian values.If you have any evidence this is not the case, please post it.

I do not agree, at all, and you have provided no evidence to support your contentions.

Why are so critical and hateful concerning the success Christianity had with the building of Canada?

Not hateful at all, just in disagreement with your contentions, disagreeing does not equal hate and it gets very tiring when people insist that it does.

Again, Christianity and traditional marriages being building blocks for canada are in fact not plausible.

[Drea]

Leafless:

you are in some sort of denial that marriage when combined with to-days feminist demands and materialism and unreal expectations does not constitute marriage being an ordeal, I don't know what does

In my situation, as in the post above, who had the "unreal expectations"? Him and his family for expecting us to start a family so young? Or me for expecting to have freedom and choices in my life?

jbg:

If people head for the exits immediately, they never get that opportunity, and are then saddled with the economic costs of maintaining two households. Remember, all a judge can do is order a husband to pay money. The divorce judge doesn't print money that was never there for the ex-spouse's benefit, and in many cases economic reverses contribute to the marital problems in the first place.

I headed for the exit immediately -- so it would have been better for me to stay in that marriage?

In your opinion it would have been better for our future children that I remain uneducated and at home and miserable in my role as wife and mother? Pfffft.

When I left I took my car with a tank of gas, my 2 cats and my clothes. I had $2 on me. So much for him being saddled with the economic costs of two households..

By the way, I went back to my home town in 2001 and ran into my ex. He apologized profusely for not allowing me anything by the things mentioned above -- cats etc. He was amazed at how resiliant I was and proud of me for what I had accomplished.

Luckily, we didn't have any children. I believe in child support but not alimony. Women are just as capable as men at earning a living and should be held to the same standard -- kids or no kids.

[Drea]

And Leafless, please clarify what you mean by "today's feminist demands".

[jbg]

I headed for the exit immediately -- so it would have been better for me to stay in that marriage?

In your opinion it would have been better for our future children that I remain uneducated and at home and miserable in my role as wife and mother? Pfffft.

When I left I took my car with a tank of gas, my 2 cats and my clothes. I had $2 on me. So much for him being saddled with the economic costs of two households..

In rare situations, such as childless young marriages, you probably did the best thing. Each situation is different, but where a couple makes a decision to have children part of that decision means creating a family.

[BubberMiley]

The state can administer any benefits following the Charter, not discriminating based on race or gender or sexual orientation for that matter. Gay couples, black couples, purple ones too all get their benefits by signing some sort of civil contract with the state... we're a couple, give us our benefits, end of story.

Isn't that basically the way it works already? Whether you call it marriage or a civil contract declaring couplehood is just semantics.

[Leafless]

Again, Christianity and traditional marriages being building blocks for canada are in fact not plausible.

Man, anybody who makes a dumb statement like you have, doesn't deserve to be Canadian.

Even in the preamble to that notorious piece of social engineering called the 'Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms', states: 'Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of GOD and the rule of law'.

Who's God do you suppose their talking about? Allah?

Make no mistake Canada's heritage is Christian and the Canadian government acknowledges that fact in WRITING and have acknowledged Christian values since Canada's beginning ...until an attempt made by Mr. Trudeau and his hate hate for Christianity and it's values, tried to destroy Christianity, but without success as the country is still primarily Christian and I doubt if that will ever change.

[Catchme]

Again, Christianity and traditional marriages being building blocks for canada are in fact not plausible.

Man, anybody who makes a dumb statement like you have, doesn't deserve to be Canadian.

Even in the preamble to that notorious piece of social engineering called the 'Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms', states: 'Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of GOD and the rule of law'.

Who's God do you suppose their talking about? Allah?[/qb]

Who are you, that you think you can judge who should be Canadian or not?

Every person's notion of God and not just the "Christian" God.

This country was built by many peoples: Asians from near middle and far east, FN's, Jews, by single men immigrating from their country of origin to find a better life and start a family, or bring their family over, non-religious and religious people's. Christian couples did not have sole responsibility in the building blocks creating Canada, contrary to what you think.

Make no mistake Canada's heritage is Christian and the Canadian government acknowledges that fact in WRITING and have acknowledged Christian values since Canada's beginning ...until an attempt made by Mr. Trudeau and his hate hate for Christianity and it's values, tried to destroy Christianity, but without success as the country is still primarily Christian and I doubt if that will ever change.

They never acknowledged in writing "Christian" anything. God does not = Solely Christian.

And just what are the "Chrisitian values" that you are speaking of? r

[Leafless]

And Leafless, please clarify what you mean by "today's feminist demands".

Feminist demand to be treated as an equal and even some go as far protecting their rights incorporating a marriage contract.

This all sounds reasonable since in most cases both must work. This is until a couple in this situation finds that running a household is a real chore and that either or both no longer wish to assume this common responsibility.

So possibly the males role becomes a female role or the females role becomes a males role.

Many males or females in my estimation cannot tolerate this role sharing and the relationship sometimes goes down the tubes because of it, especially when children are involved, adds to the burden.

Iam just basically suggesting what sometimes could happen when both parties have to work (and demanding to be treated equal at the same time) while trying to treat marriage in a more conventional way.

[Leafless]

And just what are the "Chrisitian values" that you are speaking of? r

The Christian values Iam talking about, are basically these along with the 'Ten Commandments'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_values

Off course there are other faiths that helped bulid Canada, but the fact remains Canada is primarily, a Christian society.

This is basically 'off topic' and there are other threads you can refer to on that subject or open you own topic on the subject.

[Drea]

Leafless, okay back to the thread topic...

you have yet to answer my question:

please clarify what you mean by "today's feminist demands".

[Catchme]

Leafless, okay back to the thread topic...

you have yet to answer my question:

please clarify what you mean by "today's feminist demands".

Drea, he did, it is uppity women demanding that a man share in house work and child rearing when both husband and wife works. I guess if women work they are supposed to do their "traditional" roles as well.

[Canadian Blue]

I think their are alot of reason's why the "traditional family" has broken down. I don't think gay marriage has anything to do with it, because people would be gay even if their was no ssm.

[guyser]

"Marriage" is failing in your minds for one reason: people no longer feel the need to sacrifice their own happiness for some nebulous family image or feel the need to prentend that their abusive/loveless/unhappy situation is a "Father Knows Best" scenario.

While I wish there was more emphasis put on permanence in relationships among heteros (seriously, is there a single instution you guys *can't* sully??), I think the benefits of self-respect and strength of individual character far outweigh the "benefits" of staying in a marriage that is abusive, loveless or false.

I swear, you straights with your Anna Nicoles and Britney Spears and your 24 hour Vegas weddings, have so triviliaized marriage it's a wonder we gay guys even want to demean ourselves to be a part of it.

Ok...now that was post of the week. I am still laughing.(compliment )

But let me answer.

We enlightened "breeders" want to give you marriage, but only because we want you as miserable as we are.

[blueblood]

I don't know, since IMO gays don't take marriage for granted theirs will have more of a chance of working out since they want it so bad. Who knows maybe a lot of the selfish I want I want I want types could learn a thing or two from them.

[guyser]

Feminist demand to be treated as an equal and even some go as far protecting their rights incorporating a marriage contract.

So possibly the males role becomes a female role or the females role becomes a males role.

Many males or females in my estimation cannot tolerate this role sharing and the relationship sometimes goes down the tubes because of it, especially when children are involved, adds to the burden.

This female/male roles you mention. Can I get a copy of that handbook? Will I find it in a Christian bookstore beside the "We built Canada" book?

I need this book because my household is seriously screwed up. You mean I didnt have to clean two bathrooms this morning....tub toilet sink and floors? And crap....I even put in two loads of laundry , but I had to fold the stuff from yesterday dammit. I knew I should have roused the beotch to do all this.

Oh wait...I just remembered ...I am not married. I guess the feminine side of me did those chores.Hmm...I wondered why my nipples got hard.

GENDER ROLES- Women- give birth , comfort children and men (but not women-their own worst enemies;) )

Men- move furniture, sperm donor.

All else is up in the air.

Yup, thats about it.

[Leafless]

This female/male roles you mention. Can I get a copy of that handbook? Will I find it in a Christian bookstore beside the "We built Canada" book?

I need this book because my household is seriously screwed up. You mean I didnt have to clean two bathrooms this morning....tub toilet sink and floors? And crap....I even put in two loads of laundry , but I had to fold the stuff from yesterday dammit. I knew I should have roused the beotch to do all this.

Sounds like you never dated either.

This is when machismo is most predominant.

But when your single machismo mysteriously disappears and is replaced with common sense.