China, what do we know about her.

[margrace]

China is roughly the same size as Canada and has the same types of land use. There are 33 million people in Canada and over a billion in China. It works out to something like 8 people per square mile. in Canada and 300 people per square mile in China. Should we fear China? As far as my historic knowledge is they never were an agressive county. I know they backed the communist regime in several countries in this last century but before that the seem to have been introverted with their own country.

The biggest fear I hear is the loss of our high living. And this is because we demand so much so cheaply and China can produce. They have cheap labour.

[Live From China]

I lived in China for 2 years. And one thing they do have is plenty of cheap labor; which we, sadly, in the West exploit to the fullest. I think that will change after 2008 (Er Ling Ling Ba) Olympics in Beijing. It seems that employers in China are having difficultly attracting labor (strange in such a populated country) and, therefore, have had to offer higher salaries, better accommodation, etc. in order to get workers.

One thing that is very evident is the dichotomy between rich and poor. In Northern China, you have people living in shacks with only a cooking stove for heat. And it is cold in this part of the world in the winter. I recall seeing families living in the shells of incomplete high rises while just across the street there were luxurious penthouses. In Suzhou, there are people living under bridges - for years. Across the street, a Starbuck's! And a smiling little kid watching a "snowy" TV program from the family bed in a "house" no bigger than a garden shed.

And the seas of people coming and going each day.

[ft.niagara]

plenty of cheap labor; which we, sadly, in the West exploit to the fullest.

I do not see that to be true. Economic activity is emotionless. There is no "exploit" to economic activity in its pureist form which is what globalization represents. What is sad is the lost dreams many in the west are experiencing because of the sea of people China represents. Their good jobs, and lifestyle they had grown to expect may not be available because of the Asian invasion.

[Borg]

China - a country that has a space program, a nuclear weapons program, huge and modern army, navy and air force - and yet receives billions in international aide.

China - a country with an economy that dwarves many - yet contributes little to others.

China - a country that receives billions of Euros for carbon credits - then plans to build hundreds of coal fired power generating plants - using this money while Europe begins the process of assisting through the purchase of credits.

China - a country that is spending billions to buy foreign businesses - including energy and mining.

China - a country that has begun a very serious series of inroads to Africa in order to ensure the continual supply of energy.

China - a country that uses money and spies to enrich their technical capability.

China - a dangerous country that sooner or later will go to war in order to retake Taiwan.

China - a country that does not have a death row - executions are usually carried out immediately upon sentencing.

China - a country with a dismal human rights history.

China - a country that is not to be trusted.

Borg

[jester]

plenty of cheap labor; which we, sadly, in the West exploit to the fullest.

I do not see that to be true. Economic activity is emotionless. There is no "exploit" to economic activity in its pureist form which is what globalization represents. What is sad is the lost dreams many in the west are experiencing because of the sea of people China represents. Their good jobs, and lifestyle they had grown to expect may not be available because of the Asian invasion.

Globalization is not economic activity in it's purest form, it is simply profit maximisation before everything else. The Asians haven't invaded, the wests companies have invaded them in search of cheaper workers so as to increase profits. I have never read anywhere that asians have taken over a factory and demanded lower wages .

[Drea]

China - a country that has a space program, a nuclear weapons program, huge and modern army, navy and air force - and yet receives billions in international aide.

Of course, commies really shouldn't have nukes or space programs or big modern armies! Only western -style democratic countries should be entitled to these things.

China - a country with an economy that dwarves many - yet contributes little to others.

The ecomomy of the USA also dwarfs many. Have you got a link regarding "contributes little to others" or is this just an opinion?

China - a country that receives billions of Euros for carbon credits - then plans to build hundreds of coal fired power generating plants - using this money while Europe begins the process of assisting through the purchase of credits.

Canada is also planning to build coal fired plants -- your point?

China - a country that is spending billions to buy foreign businesses - including energy and mining.

USA -- a country that is spending billions on war to take over foreign business including engery and mining. At least China is willing to buy it rather than take it.

China - a country that has begun a very serious series of inroads to Africa in order to ensure the continual supply of energy.

The USA -- a country that has begun (has done for a very long time) very serious inroads into the middle east to ensure continual supply of energy. Again, your point?

China - a country that uses money and spies to enrich their technical capability.

USA -- a country that uses money and spies to enrich their technical capability. Again, your point?

China - a dangerous country that sooner or later will go to war in order to retake Taiwan.

This one made me laugh out loud!

The USA -- a dangerous country that sooner (already is folks!) or later will go to war against Iran for trumped up "terrorism" charges.

China - a country that does not have a death row - executions are usually carried out immediately upon sentencing.

The USA - a country that kills its own citizens. An apparently "civilized" country that still insists on killing its own. Shameful IMO.

China - a country with a dismal human rights history.

The USA -- a country with a dismal human rights history. Ranks at the bottom (39th I think) regarding child welfare. More children per capita are poor than in many other "less civilized" countries) Your point again?

China - a country that is not to be trusted.

The USA has already proven that it cannot be trusted. Mistrust of China is merely speculative.

Go China! -- our next big (bigger actually, much bigger!) trading partner, we have wood, ore and oil for you to buy! *hug*

[Live From China]

China is well aware of the pollution caused by utilizing coal for energy. Chinese cities are terribly polluted partially due to their coal-fired plants. They are building the dams on the Yangtze in the hopes of alleviating some of this problem. Of course, they are replacing one environmental problem with another one.

[Drea]

Hydro electric power is much cleaner that coal so we've got to give them credit for trying.

Good thing (for citizens of the USA war machine) they are not looking into nuclear power!

America would have to go and "win the hearts and minds" of one billion people -- can't even get 50% of their own population on board, imagine them trying to "sway" a billion "commies"!

"But we bring democracy and freedom!" ahhaaa haaa haa.

[apollo19]

The biggest fear I hear is the loss of our high living. And this is because we demand so much so cheaply and China can produce. They have cheap labour.

It is interesting in the world now that China is demanding so much resources -- the world is now awakened to what can happen when we have a finite supply of things and ever-increasing demand for them. I wouldn't say we will lose our high standard of living, but in the future things will become increasingly more expensive, forcing us to seek more sustainable substitutes.

About the "threat" of China: I don't think China will ever target anyone militarily first (aside from possibly Taiwan, although that would be provoked). What is interesting about China is the fact that it is a dictatorship now, with ever increasing economic freedom for it's citizens. China has historically always been strongest with a powerful central government. In the future we will see if President Bush's theory of increasing economic freedom granting increased social freedom will happen. Personally, I think it will, but the Communist Party will not give up power easily to the people it governs.

[Borg]

Well folks there you have it - I was hoping someone would bring up the comparisom of the U.S. of A.

They missed a big one though.

The fence issue.

People are doing their damndest to get out of China - and get into the U.S. of A. or Canada. More boats anyone? Not many prepared to risk their lives to get into China.

So - there you go - the anti U.S. folks love China for all of the goodness that prevails there and hate the U.S. of A. because of all the bad that comes from the Yanks.

Thanks for proving my point Drea.

Borg

[Drea]

You didn't have a point.

Commie bbaaaaad -- America gooooood.

China is a growing economic force in the world. The USA is a dying country. Should we continue to depend on the US to purchase our resources or shall we look for new markets?

I said nothing about people immigrating or emmigrating did I?

But you gotta run out yelling "WHERE WOULD YOU RATHER LIVE? CHINA OR THE USA? NORTH KOREA SUIT YOU? WHY ARE NO BOAT PEOPLE LEAVING THE USA?"

Well today, in 2007 I would say that the USA still has China beat regarding human rights etc, but it won't be long before China surpasses them and then there will be people leaving the US in droves (if their govt allows them to)

[Borg]

Having had the opportunity to live in Moscow / Alapayevsk / Rostov and Qingdao / Suzhou - I heartily agree - commie bad and America good.

Try it you might like the life style. I did - but then again I had privileges the locals did not.

Borg

You didn't have a point.

Commie bbaaaaad -- America gooooood.

China is a growing economic force in the world. The USA is a dying country. Should we continue to depend on the US to purchase our resources or shall we look for new markets?

I said nothing about people immigrating or emmigrating did I?

But you gotta run out yelling "WHERE WOULD YOU RATHER LIVE? CHINA OR THE USA? NORTH KOREA SUIT YOU? WHY ARE NO BOAT PEOPLE LEAVING THE USA?"

Well today, in 2007 I would say that the USA still has China beat regarding human rights etc, but it won't be long before China surpasses them and then there will be people leaving the US in droves (if their govt allows them to)

[geoffrey]

Hydro electric power is much cleaner that coal so we've got to give them credit for trying.

Careful. Hydro power leads to the destruction of many millions of hectares of ecosystem, often destroying valuable carbon sinks. The trees that then rot emit CO2.

[Liam]

I'm trying to figure out why Drea felt the need to address Borg's conerns about China by sending up the US as the worse of the two? As far as I could tell, the US was not part of the discussion.

Oh, well, embrace your future overlord, Drea. Perhaps China will be more hospitable to you than those filthy Americans. (But I suspect that a mere few years into a China-dominated world, you will rue the day you decided to be their apologist.)

[Wilber]

Good thing (for citizens of the USA war machine) they are not looking into nuclear power!

Ah, haven't they had nukes for years?

[margrace]

plenty of cheap labor; which we, sadly, in the West exploit to the fullest.

I do not see that to be true. Economic activity is emotionless. There is no "exploit" to economic activity in its pureist form which is what globalization represents. What is sad is the lost dreams many in the west are experiencing because of the sea of people China represents. Their good jobs, and lifestyle they had grown to expect may not be available because of the Asian invasion.

Of course we exploit it every time we buy something made in China.

[ft.niagara]

Of course we exploit it every time we buy something made in China.

How can you exploit their services if they are gladly selling their services at what they do? They have set the value of their labor.

[Drea]

I'm trying to figure out why Drea felt the need to address Borg's conerns about China by sending up the US as the worse of the two? As far as I could tell, the US was not part of the discussion.

Oh, well, embrace your future overlord, Drea. Perhaps China will be more hospitable to you than those filthy Americans. (But I suspect that a mere few years into a China-dominated world, you will rue the day you decided to be their apologist.)

Yes!

and I personally will be responsible for the overthrow of America and the institution of China as "world overlord"! *holy crap I had no idea I have so much power -- lil ol me!*

The US economy is going to tank. That is a given.

Of course Canada could go down with 'em OR we can seek new markets. China is a biiiig market.

I compared the two (China and the US) because China is where we were 50 years ago. The middle class is up and coming and will be a powerful buying force in the near future. UNLIKE the US, whose middle class is getting poorer and poorer. Housing starts down 14% for example...

As a selfish capitalist, I just want a market for our stuff. I don't give a rats ass what kind of human rights or whatever, as long as there is money to buy the resource.

[ft.niagara]

As a selfish capitalist, I just want a market for our stuff. I don't give a rats ass what kind of human rights or whatever, as long as there is money to buy the resource.

Buy your stuff??? LOL They do not want your stuff, they want your resources. Capitalist??? Japan and China are going to take you to the cleaners. You think you are insulated being in Canada? Do you own any resources? LOL. You talk like some big cheese, big talk. Funny man.

[Drea]

As a selfish capitalist, I just want a market for our stuff. I don't give a rats ass what kind of human rights or whatever, as long as there is money to buy the resource.

Buy your stuff??? LOL They do not want your stuff, they want your resources. Capitalist??? Japan and China are going to take you to the cleaners. You think you are insulated being in Canada? Do you own any resources? LOL. You talk like some big cheese, big talk. Funny man.

I didn't mean my stuff personally. Silly. Of course I mean Canada's resources -- we are a resource based country. Wood, lumber, minerals... stuff.

And yah, as a matter of fact, as a citizen of this country I DO own the resources. Our resources, for the most part, belong to the "crown". Look it up if you don't understand.

I'm no Canadian cheddar. Just a sales rep with an interest in world affairs.

And with a name like "Drea" you assume I am a male? You must know some girly men there Ft. ;-)

All I want is for Canada to ensure a market for our resources. Preferrably many markets. For too long we have depended wholy on the US to buy our "stuff" and in today's economic climate (globalization, the decreasing power of the American dollar, etc.) we need to look out for #1.

[guyser]

I'm trying to figure out why Drea felt the need to address Borg's conerns about China by sending up the US as the worse of the two? As far as I could tell, the US was not part of the discussion.

Dont bother trying to figure that one out. This is a prime example of one poster who lives in a basement and never knows if it is day or night, yet can debate with someone who has lived in China and has seen with their own eyes what goes on. Laughable really.

I will leave it to you to figure out who is who in the above statement.

[Liam]

Yes!

and I personally will be responsible for the overthrow of America and the institution of China as "world overlord"! *holy crap I had no idea I have so much power -- lil ol me!*

Drea, if only you had such power! *LOL

It's just that you seem to relish America's demise and China's rise. Good luck to you, I say. China might start out paying market rate for your timber and natural gas, but if you think 35 million Canadians can say No when China's 1+ billion people start demanding a better price for your resources, I'd say you're being naive. What Wal*Mart is to the economics of retail, China will soon become to "your" natural resources. Don't be too surprised when China Inc. starts buying "your" timberlands and wheat fields.

[Live From China]

Not too sure whether or not that will happen, Liam. If it does, we will quickly find out if economic activity is truly emotionless, or has no personal cost!

[Wilber]

I'm trying to figure out why Drea felt the need to address Borg's conerns about China by sending up the US as the worse of the two? As far as I could tell, the US was not part of the discussion.

If we were discussing liver disease in Tasmanian wombats there are some on this forum who would make the US a part of it.

[August1991]

It's just that you seem to relish America's demise and China's rise. Good luck to you, I say. China might start out paying market rate for your timber and natural gas, but if you think 35 million Canadians can say No when China's 1+ billion people start demanding a better price for your resources, I'd say you're being naive. What Wal*Mart is to the economics of retail, China will soon become to "your" natural resources. Don't be too surprised when China Inc. starts buying "your" timberlands and wheat fields.

Our dealings with China, like trade in general, are completely voluntary. Nobody is forcing anyone in Canada to trade with anyone in China. (And incidentally, Canada doesn't trade with China - Canadians trade with Chinese.)

If any Canadian doesn't like the terms a Chinese is offering, then they are free to refuse and go elsewhere or not trade at all.

----

BTW, the next big change in our dealings with China will be having Chinese cars on our streets.