The Kadr problem again

[Army Guy]

Do we really owe this kid anything, at what piont do you stop being a Canadian citizen, where do we draw the line a revoke citizenship...

And what to we do with this kid if our government does secure his release from gitmo..

KAdrs

[Figleaf]

Do we really owe this kid anything, at what piont do you stop being a Canadian citizen, where do we draw the line a revoke citizenship...

And what to we do with this kid if our government does secure his release from gitmo..

KAdrs

A core value in 'the west' is that no-one should be imprisoned without due process and a fair trial. We should care about it because Guantanamo is a direct, deliberate, and clear violation of our Western civilization.

[Charles Anthony]

I second that, FigLeaf.

Personally, I care very little about whether this 15 year-old boy committed crimes or not. I am very much afraid of everybody else who is so cavalier with violating personal freedoms. Some level of Polynoia might be healthy.

I would rather this kid be set free and the secret trials be eliminated.

[Leafless]

The onus to prove 'innocence' should not be the responsibility of the federal government concerning an individual that possesses apparent traitorous characteristics involving terrorist activity, but rather on the individual to prove his or her own innocence, pertaining to the alleged offense and at their own expense.

[HistoryBuff44]

Do we really owe this kid anything, at what piont do you stop being a Canadian citizen, where do we draw the line a revoke citizenship...

And what to we do with this kid if our government does secure his release from gitmo..

KAdrs

revoke citizenship? why should canada do that?

[Remiel]

What the hell? Man, you are so full of it, Leafless. Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

[Figleaf]

The onus to prove 'innocence' should not be the responsibility of the federal government concerning an individual that possesses apparent traitorous characteristics involving terrorist activity, but rather on the individual to prove his or her own innocence, pertaining to the alleged offense and at their own expense.

Drivel.

[madmax]

Do we really owe this kid anything, at what piont do you stop being a Canadian citizen, where do we draw the line a revoke citizenship...

And what to we do with this kid if our government does secure his release from gitmo..

Do we owe this kid anything? What do you think? Kids are misled, and this one has been indoctrinated into Islamic Radicalism. You might want to ask, why the US government once supported such Radical Fundamentalism and then, you will realize that these "Charities" that were constructed in Pakistan were to hide weapons, money and activists for Jihad.

Khadrs Father bought into this brand of Islam, and the system was in place. Unfortuneately the Khadr in Gitmo is a victim of his fathers beliefs. He may never change, but he is still young and I doubt Gitmo is doing him any favours in changing his views of the US.

I believe he was born in Canada. So what country should be held accountable for him?

Gitmo is an embarrassment to the world.

What do we do?

I am open to hearing more.

[Leafless]

What the hell? Man, you are so full of it, Leafless. Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

Army Guy is asking your opinion: "at what point do you stop being a Canadian citizen, where do we draw the line and revoke citizenship"...

And I gave my opinion, IOW..I wouldn't waste my time concerning defending any Arab immigrant that displays traitorous characteristics in a foreign land involving terrorist activities and then expects to be rescued. This is despite existing laws which naturally would be changed to accommodate my viewpoint. And on the same note any Arab immigrant found to be entertaining ANY TYPE of potential terrorist activities in Canada would be immediately deported.

Whats your opinion on the topic or are you to lame to have one?

[Figleaf]

IOW..I wouldn't waste my time concerning defending any Arab immigrant that displays traitorous characteristics in a foreign land involving terrorist activities and then expects to be rescued.

1. Allegedly involved in terrorist activities.

2. Why do you single out Arab descent in particular?

3. Traitorous how? His alleged activities were carried out in Afghanistan, and affected nothing Canadian.

[Leafless]

IOW..I wouldn't waste my time concerning defending any Arab immigrant that displays traitorous characteristics in a foreign land involving terrorist activities and then expects to be rescued.

1. Allegedly involved in terrorist activities.

2. Why do you single out Arab descent in particular?

3. Traitorous how? His alleged activities were carried out in Afghanistan, and affected nothing Canadian.

This is the whole point and that is, why should Canada be involved with individuals who undertake personal political undertakings in the name of another country, potential or otherwise.

Islamic extremism or Islamic fundamentalism is responsible in 2004-2005 for 57% of fatalities and 61% of woundings and that is why I single out Arab Muslims: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism

Abdorahman Khadr's personal history I am not going to get involved with but is it normal for Canadian Muslims to send their kids to learn violence and destruction in a camp thousands of kilometres away?

The traitor aspect could involve the killing of Canadian troops by Arab Canadians who are loyal to Islamic fundamentalism or in fact simply carrying on potentially violent activities (in the name of Islam) is enough to make one a traitor to this country.

[geoffrey]

He was arrested in a combat zone, normal rules don't apply. Don't go to a war if you don't want to face the consequences of being there. He does bare some responsibility for his own stupidity. His family has continuously denounced Canada and Canadian values while mocking us during his brother's medicial treatment on our tax dollar.

Time to give them a swift kick in the ass if you ask me.

[Figleaf]

He was arrested in a combat zone, normal rules don't apply.

He is either a civilian and entitled to that legal process, or he is a combatant and entitled to the Geneva convention.

He does bare some responsibility for his own stupidity.

He was fifteen years old, and his 'stupidity' has never been proven.

His family has continuously denounced Canada

Irrelevant.

[Figleaf]

IOW..I wouldn't waste my time concerning defending any Arab immigrant that displays traitorous characteristics in a foreign land involving terrorist activities and then expects to be rescued.

1. Allegedly involved in terrorist activities.

2. Why do you single out Arab descent in particular?

3. Traitorous how? His alleged activities were carried out in Afghanistan, and affected nothing Canadian.

This is the whole point and that is, why should Canada be involved with individuals who undertake personal political undertakings in the name of another country, potential or otherwise.

If you are advocating a reassessment of our citizenship rules, that's your prerogative, but until then, Canadian citizens are entitled to political freedom. Anyway, no-one, regardless of their citizenship should be jailed without due process.

Islamic extremism or Islamic fundamentalism is responsible in 2004-2005 for 57% of fatalities and 61% of woundings

Where?

and that is why I single out Arab Muslims: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism

Ah yes, stereotyping and collective punishment.

Abdorahman Khadr's personal history I am not going to get involved with but is it normal for Canadian Muslims to send their kids to learn violence and destruction in a camp thousands of kilometres away?

Irrelevant.

The traitor aspect could involve the killing of Canadian troops by Arab Canadians who are loyal to Islamic fundamentalism

So, it's a fantasy of your own devising.

[geoffrey]

His family has continuously denounced Canada

Irrelevant.

Not really, the family should be charged with treason and jailed.

CC:

High treason

46. (1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,

( a kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;

( b ) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or

( c ) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

They sent their Canadian citizen son to go fight against Canada, all of them should be jailed. Or perhaps we need to bring back hanging? I have little patience for people like the Khadrs. So ya, let's get him released, and sent back to Canada to stand trial with the rest of his ungrateful terrorist family.

[Riverwind]

Not really, the family should be charged with treason and jailed.

Anyone who advocates a UDI for a province or territory is also guilty of treason under the law. Should we round up all of the seperatists as well?

[geoffrey]

Not really, the family should be charged with treason and jailed.

Anyone who advocates a UDI for a province or territory is also guilty of treason under the law. Should we round up all of the seperatists as well?

That's not true at all. Check out the criminal code, no reference is made to democratic political action.

[Argus]

Do we really owe this kid anything, at what piont do you stop being a Canadian citizen, where do we draw the line a revoke citizenship...

And what to we do with this kid if our government does secure his release from gitmo..

KAdrs

A core value in 'the west' is that no-one should be imprisoned without due process and a fair trial. We should care about it because Guantanamo is a direct, deliberate, and clear violation of our Western civilization.

Yeah, well, I think our core values wouldn't be unduly harmed by giving this punk a bullet behind the ear.

And I don't think you even understand what core values are.

[Argus]

Do we really owe this kid anything, at what piont do you stop being a Canadian citizen, where do we draw the line a revoke citizenship...

And what to we do with this kid if our government does secure his release from gitmo..

Do we owe this kid anything? What do you think? Kids are misled, and this one has been indoctrinated into Islamic Radicalism. You might want to ask, why the US government once supported such Radical Fundamentalism and then, you will realize that these "Charities" that were constructed in Pakistan were to hide weapons, money and activists for Jihad.

Khadrs Father bought into this brand of Islam, and the system was in place. Unfortuneately the Khadr in Gitmo is a victim of his fathers beliefs. He may never change, but he is still young and I doubt Gitmo is doing him any favours in changing his views of the US.

I believe he was born in Canada. So what country should be held accountable for him?

Gitmo is an embarrassment to the world.

Gitmo is an embarrassment to the world? Gitmo? There are probably thousands of prisons in the world where people are treated worse than Gitmo, with less cause. But it's Gitmo that obsesses people. Never mind that people are dying by the tens of thousands in Darfur. Never mind that there are people in prisons all over the planet who have spent decades behind bars without charge or trial. Never mind we're all eagerly snapping up goods made by slave labour from China, or that the North Korean concentration camps kill whole families as brutally as the Nazis ever would have hoped. Never mind that Iran hangs teenagers for violating chastity laws or that Russia's Putin is set on building a new Soviet Union - only in a less kindly image than the old one.

The important, most embarrassing world problem is that some terrorist suspects in Gitmo haven't had their trials yet.

Give me a break. What planet do you people live on?

Put a rope around the little bastard's throat and hang him.

[Argus]

He was arrested in a combat zone, normal rules don't apply.

He is either a civilian and entitled to that legal process, or he is a combatant and entitled to the Geneva convention.

Traditionally, civilians arrested for making war are shot out of hand.

He does bare some responsibility for his own stupidity.

He was fifteen years old, and his 'stupidity' has never been proven.

Fifteen is plenty old enough to kill people, and plenty old enough to be hanged for it.

His family has continuously denounced Canada

Irrelevant.

I disagree. Throw the bastards out, lock stock and bedsheets. Ship them over to Afghanistan and let them live with the Taliban in their caves.

[Riverwind]

That's not true at all. Check out the criminal code, no reference is made to democratic political action.

A 'UDI' is the just a fancy way of demanding the violent overthrow of the current gov't because a UDI only has meaning if the people making the declaration are willing to use violence against the legimate gov't to secure their claim of sovereignty over a territory. This means calling for a UDI fits into the definition of advocating violance as described the criminal code.

OTOH, calling for a negotiated breakup of the country via a constitutional amendment is not an inherently violant act so it would be protected as legimate political expression.

So back to my original question: if you think Kadr should be tried for treason then why don't we try all those seperatists that advocate a UDI?

[guyser]

Yeah, well, I think our core values wouldn't be unduly harmed by giving this punk a bullet behind the ear.

And I don't think you even understand what core values are.

And we all now KNOW that Argus , most certainly has no idea what core values are.

[Alexandra]

He is either a civilian and entitled to that legal process, or he is a combatant and entitled to the Geneva convention.

Under What section of the Gen. Convention would this Khadr kid be entitled to be treated as a legitimate soldier of a country involved in combat?

If a civilian fighting as a foreigner for al Queda, in the process killing a U.S. Medic, should Khadr then be charged with murder under U.S. law or Afghan law or Canadian law?

The U.S. Army medic's family would possibly prefer Khadr be charged with murder under the U.S. criminal code whereby the death penalty could be applied. That would certainly solve the Gitmo problem.

[Charles Anthony]

A 'UDI' is the just a fancy way of demanding the violent overthrow of the current gov't because a UDI only has meaning if the people making the declaration are willing to use violence against the legimate gov't to secure their claim of sovereignty over a territory.

That is an interesting take but it sounds like something that BushCheney would say.

Violence is not necessary for separation. Therefore, if you want to take a moral stand, I would put the onus of proving a threat of violence on the first aggressor. If the people making the unilateral declaration of independence do not have the means to commit the violence to secure their claim of sovereignty over a territory against your legitimate government, it is twisted politics to claim that they are inciting violence -- unless you can prove they have secret weapons of mass seduction hidden away somewhere.

This means calling for a UDI fits into the definition of advocating violance as described the criminal code.

Has there ever been a court precedent in Canada which ruled specifically in that regard or might that just be an a$$umption on your part?

Now, we are getting warmer!

So back to my original question: if you think Kadr should be tried for treason then why don't we try all those seperatists that advocate a UDI?

I see no reason why Kadr should be tried for treason. Do you?

If a civilian fighting as a foreigner for al Queda, in the process killing a U.S. Medic, should Khadr then be charged with murder under U.S. law or Afghan law or Canadian law?

I does not matter. Nobody gives a damn about this kid and he is at the mercy of people who use the same excuses as

probably thousands of prisons in the world where people are treated worse than Gitmo, with less cause.

[Riverwind]

If the people making the unilateral declaration of independence do not have the means to commit the violence to secure their claim of sovereignty over a territory against your legitimate government, it is twisted politics to claim that they are inciting violence.

A wannabe terrorist may not have a nuclear bomb but claiming that God gives them the right to set that bomb off is still inciting violence. Similarly, someone calling for a UDI is guilty of inciting violence because a UDI requires violence or the threat of violence to enforce. If there was no threat of violence then the gov't would simply ignore the UDI and life would continue on as before.

That said, I don't believe that either Kadr or UDI advocates should be charged with treason. I just brought up the comparison because I think the hypothetical case for treason against UDI advocates is much stronger than the hypothetical case against Kadr.

I have always disliked the entire concept of 'treason' as a crime because it is generally used to persecute political opponents. If Kadr is guilty of murder then charge him with murder.