New (old) Thoughts On Iraq

[scribblet]

That is not why that is what.

Huh - could you rephrase that in English

[scribblet]

...where there is no actual argument per se that terrorism is good, it is simply that anything the U.S. or Bush does is bad - no matter what. My argument is no more 'crippled' than one that refuses to acknowledge that the terrorists are killing thousands of their own people indiscriminately.

No, it's not that Bush's actions are bad no matter what. Bush's actions are bad because he has consistently made the wrong choices. I would be happy to praise him if he would do something right for once.

I also don't think it's necessary to state the obvious--terrorists are cold-blooded murderers and bad--every time I criticize Bush. Impugning that, by criticizing Bush, one is saying that terrorism is good is not only intellectually dishonest, but morally reprehensible as well.

Sure, whatever you say - btw I think you mean implying.

[BubberMiley]

I think you mean implying.

Yeah, I think that would work better. You're right.

[Borg]

1. The middle east is largely an uncivilized, savage society. For a good example you need not look any further than the execution of Saddam Hussein.

I agree.

Any nation that practices state executions is largely uncivilized.

Are you willing to include China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, UAE, N&S Korea, Japan, Jordan, Egypt, Singapore and about 75 others in this statement?

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-countries-eng

Borg

[Catchme]

You need to know the "what" in order to condemn it.

If you feel the need to condemn the American's, yet fail to condemn violence by another group then that obviously show's a huge bias. It's hypocritical to blast the American's who will often attempt to minimize civilian casualties, yet turn a blind eye to those who seek to inflict as many civilian casualties as possible.

Sure disagree with the invasion, however when complaining about illegal actions, violence, and death, don't turn a blind eye to the same activities simply because it is being used by the other side.

No, it is not hyprocritical to blast the Americans, as if they really wanted to minimize casualities, or even cared about casualities, they would not have launchd an illegal war based upon lies.

I am not trning a blind eye, I am just being realitic in realizing this mess would NOT be going on if not for the USA's initial heinous actions in Iraq.

The USA is the ROOT causational factor.

If the Sunnis and Shia's are fighting between themselves, then that is their business. Their country, their lives. My condemnation of them means nothing to them, or indeed anyone else. It is just words.

This whole silly argument if you're condemn 1, then you have to condemn all, or you are not being fair is ridiculous. The reason you did not specify why, I should condemn, says it all. There is NO reason why I should.

My not doing so, does not mean I am supportive of their actions, or agree with them even, it just means, I have been fully cognizant from the very begining, of where all this would lead. And I feel it is Iraqis country and their own lives, to choose to do so what they will.

If they want to kill each other, it is their business. I feel sadness that this is a choice they are making, and that they have come to this. Or perhaps reverted to this, as Sunnis and Shias have long been in opposition to one another, and there is nothing I could do or say, or anyone could do or say, that would change their feeling towwards each other, that must come from within them. Uttering condemnation at this point means nothing to them so what would be the point?

If they want to drive the occupiers out of their lands it is their business. I feel power to them if they want to do that, it is their country afterall.

If they want to put down their weapons and greet each other in peace, and reconciliation that too is their business. I would stap up and cheer and give thanks that they saw a better way.

If they want to establish business relationships that fair and reasonable with other countries, then I support them and say power to you.

[geoffrey]

If the Sunnis and Shia's are fighting between themselves, then that is their business. Their country, their lives. My condemnation of them means nothing to them, or indeed anyone else. It is just words.

Oh, it's just Serbs and Kosovars. We should just let them kill each other, their lives... right?

Or do you apply different standards based on some random set of values? Or do you in fact support sitting back while ethnic cleansing and religious wars decimate innocent populations?

[Catchme]

If the Sunnis and Shia's are fighting between themselves, then that is their business. Their country, their lives. My condemnation of them means nothing to them, or indeed anyone else. It is just words.

Oh, it's just Serbs and Kosovars. We should just let them kill each other, their lives... right?

Or do you apply different standards based on some random set of values? Or do you in fact support sitting back while ethnic cleansing and religious wars decimate innocent populations?

geoffery, I have asked you before not to put words in my mouth, and to stop discussing me as opposed to the topic, and am doing so again. Thank you!

You have gone off on a tangent that does not exist in my words. Nevermind the fact, that the USA started it all in the first place. And nevermind the fact that there is ethnic cleansing and civil wars going on all over the world, so why is the USA and yourself being selective to Iraq only?

The USA's reason is oil, and should we just invade the whole world and tell them to behave just like us, or else?

The west's interference for decades has caused this mess in the ME, it is about time the west stopped, got out and people stopped their colonialistic intent to tell everyone how they should be "just like us".

Suicide bombers have lost hope, faith, family and their lives, and perhaps even their sanity, they are a minority, and I would rather forgive them and their actions, for they know not what they do, rather than condemn them as "evil" people.

It is criminal to harm innocents, such as the suicide bombers do, but it is very much more criminal to invade a country illegally based upon lies, and kill 10's of thousands of innocents, destroy a country, its infrastructure, it's everything, and to leave depleted uranium shells laying everywhere to kill the generations to come.

On a scale of 1-10 for crimes against humanity, with 10 being the worst, I would say the USA is at 10, while the suicide bombers are at 5 -6.

[geoffrey]

On a scale of 1-10 for crimes against humanity, with 10 being the worst, I would say the USA is at 10, while the suicide bombers are at 5 -6.

Umm hmm, I'll just let that one go for now.

I just want to hear your justification for attention to a situation like the ethnic cleansing and violence in the Balkans while letting the Shi'a and Sunni's just kill each other off. There must be a reason why one is worth international assistance, and the other, well, we should just leave them to their devices.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm asking you to explain a rather confusing stance on ethnic violence.

Unless of course, I wrongly assumed that you supported action in Kosovo, in which case, it all becomes more rational.

The US doesn't need much more oil, by the way, it has tons in Alberta, and that supply will only growth as we further develop the oil sands. No war needed there. You've got to look deeper for your motivations, but I'd agree with you if you said they weren't always in the best interests of the locals.

[Catchme]

The Balkans do not factor into this topic at all, and I consider it a red herring and nothing more. And you were attempting to put words in my mouth.

You can try selling that they don't need the oil somewhere else, because I am not buying it. Further when you go down that tangent, then why did the USA illegally invade Iraq based upon lies? And why are is the USA et al leaving about 140 other countries, that have ethnic violence and civil war going on alone? why have they gotten control of Iraqi oil, by making contracts prior to the infamous election?

You see, when you go down that ethnic cleansing saving the people avenue geoffery you have to keep your viewpoint narrow, or it doesn't work with rational thinking.

[Catchme]

New thoughts on Iraq, are the USA cannot, and is not, looking after its military personal who have been injured in either Iraq or Afghanistan. It seems once they are of no use, the US admin could care less. It is a shameful treatment of those they insist people should hold in the highest regard.

Soldiers Face Neglect, Frustration At Army's Top Medical Facility

By Dana Priest and Anne Hull

Washington Post Staff Writers

Sunday, February 18, 2007; Page A01

Behind the door of Army Spec. Jeremy Duncan's room, part of the wall is torn and hangs in the air, weighted down with black mold. When the wounded combat engineer stands in his shower and looks up, he can see the bathtub on the floor above through a rotted hole. The entire building, constructed between the world wars, often smells like greasy carry-out. Signs of neglect are everywhere: mouse droppings, belly-up cockroaches, stained carpets, cheap mattresses.

This is the world of Building 18, not the kind of place where Duncan expected to recover when he was evacuated to Walter Reed Army Medical Center from Iraq last February with a broken neck and a shredded left ear, nearly dead from blood loss.

...soldiers say they feel like they are living a chapter of "Catch-22." The wounded manage other wounded. Soldiers dealing with psychological disorders of their own have been put in charge of others at risk of suicide.

Disengaged clerks, unqualified platoon sergeants and overworked case managers fumble with simple needs: feeding soldiers' families who are close to poverty, replacing a uniform ripped off by medics in the desert sand or helping a brain-damaged soldier remember his next appointment.

"We've done our duty. We fought the war. We came home wounded. Fine. But whoever the people are back here who are supposed to give us the easy transition should be doing it," said Marine Sgt. Ryan Groves, 26, an amputee who lived at Walter Reed for 16 months. "We don't know what to do. The people who are supposed to know don't have the answers. It's a nonstop process of stalling."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...7021701172.html

[Canadian Blue]

This whole silly argument if you're condemn 1, then you have to condemn all, or you are not being fair is ridiculous. The reason you did not specify why, I should condemn, says it all. There is NO reason why I should.

Tsk, tsk, tsk...

Market bombs, suicide bombs, etc. You know, unless that's much more unjustified then a military action which seeks to limit civilian casualties. [Yes that's right, even though due to the civil war the casualties have jumped, American's for the most part seek to have as few civilian deaths as possible]

I'm not sure why condemning people who commit violence against civilian's isn't fair, and is considered a ridiculous statement.

If I were to go and criticize someone for killing a person because they believed that they would harm someone, yet fail to criticize someone for killing a person for the hell of it, wouldn't that be kind of ridiculous.

My not doing so, does not mean I am supportive of their actions, or agree with them even, it just means, I have been fully cognizant from the very begining, of where all this would lead. And I feel it is Iraqis country and their own lives, to choose to do so what they will.

Well that kind of attitude is the reason why Rwanda happened. I'd assume your talking about Iraq in it's current state.

You have gone off on a tangent that does not exist in my words. Nevermind the fact, that the USA started it all in the first place. And nevermind the fact that there is ethnic cleansing and civil wars going on all over the world, so why is the USA and yourself being selective to Iraq only?

Because the debate is over Iraq, and I don't have such a black and white view of the world.

Suicide bombers have lost hope, faith, family and their lives, and perhaps even their sanity, they are a minority, and I would rather forgive them and their actions, for they know not what they do, rather than condemn them as "evil" people.

So suicide bombers who go into crowded civilian areas and blow themselves up isn't a moral outrage. I can understand to some extent why people would do it, and would rather go after the ones who indoctrinate and supply this kind of dangerous ideology, as well as go after the role poverty has to play. However I'd say that they do know what they are doing when they blow themselves up in a civilian area. It's not excusable, and shouldn't be. While the American invasion was illegal, and did more harm then good, it is no worse then ethnic cleansing, or suicide bombing.

It is criminal to harm innocents, such as the suicide bombers do, but it is very much more criminal to invade a country illegally based upon lies, and kill 10's of thousands of innocents, destroy a country, its infrastructure, it's everything, and to leave depleted uranium shells laying everywhere to kill the generations to come.

But it's not that black and white, to lay all the blame on the doorstep of the US while ommitting the roles played by the insurgents is simply inane. It's not all the US's fault, and I'd say that overall the blame can go around all the players in Iraq.

The Balkans do not factor into this topic at all, and I consider it a red herring and nothing more. And you were attempting to put words in my mouth.

A case of the pot calling the kettle black.

You can try selling that they don't need the oil somewhere else, because I am not buying it. Further when you go down that tangent, then why did the USA illegally invade Iraq based upon lies? And why are is the USA et al leaving about 140 other countries, that have ethnic violence and civil war going on alone? why have they gotten control of Iraqi oil, by making contracts prior to the infamous election?

Because the US had incompetent intelligence, and after failing to capture Bin Laden needed to find a new enemy. They found one in Iraq, and attempted to build up a case against Hussein. Once they failed to get approval from the UN they invaded on the premise of WMD's and bringing democracy to the region. Afterwards however it was shown that this was based on faulty intelligence, and democracy is nearly impossible to attain due to the rivalries between the ethnic groups.

You see, when you go down that ethnic cleansing saving the people avenue geoffery you have to keep your viewpoint narrow, or it doesn't work with rational thinking.

So let me get this straight, you have no moral outrage when it comes to ethnic cleansing. As for rational thinking, I don't think you should be lecturing anyone on rational thinking. You did say that we shouldn't be concerned with what's happening in Iraq. After coming up with absurd assumption's in other thread's it's hypocritical to go on a tangent here.

[White Doors]

On a scale of 1-10 for crimes against humanity, with 10 being the worst, I would say the USA is at 10, while the suicide bombers are at 5 -6.

nice! what a load of BS.

Where would Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union fit on your pathetic little scale?

Talk about verification of the 'useful idiots' phrase.

You are a traitor to this country, you know that?

A TRAITOR

Congratulations.

[Canadian Blue]

The scale is flawed, since even with the invasion the US hasn't engaged in ethnic cleansing. While everyone knows that since the invasion the occupation has been ripe with incompetence, it's ridiculous to assert that suicide bombing is forgiveable, while an invasion which was intent on minimizing civilian casualties and ousting a dictator is much more evil.

Talk about verification of the 'useful idiots' phrase.

You are a traitor to this country, you know that?

A TRAITOR

Congratulations.

She's not a traitor, just confused and irrational. It's really easy to play armchair quarterback, but unless you've been in a position over there were your life is threatened it's easy to make black and white commentary sitting in your home.

[Catchme]

Winning hearts and minds of Iraqis!

US troops kidnap six-year-old girl to force Resistance fighter father to surrender 15 Feb 2007 Mafkarat al-Islam reported that US forces kidnapped a six-year-old elementary school girl, Maryam 'Abdallah, as she came out of her school in al-Habbaniyah, 90km west of Baghdad, on Thursday. Reports from al-Habbaniyah indicated that Maryam is the daughter of Shaykh 'Abdallah al-Mar'awi, a Resistance commander, and the abduction was apparently with the aim of pressuring the girl’s father to surrender.

http://www.legitgov.org/

While:

Accused Terrorist Is Big GOP Donor 19 Feb 2007 Justin Hood reports: The National Republican Congressional Committee (NRCC) won't say what it plans to do with thousands of dollars in campaign donations it received from an accused terror financier. Abdul Tawala Ibn Ali Alishtari gave $15,250 to the NRCC since 2002, according to FEC records published on the Web site opensecrets.org. On Friday, Alishtari pled not guilty to funding terrorism and other crimes, including financial fraud.

[newbie]

1. The middle east is largely an uncivilized, savage society. For a good example you need not look any further than the execution of Saddam Hussein.

I agree.

Any nation that practices state executions is largely uncivilized.

Are you willing to include China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, UAE, N&S Korea, Japan, Jordan, Egypt, Singapore and about 75 others in this statement?

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-countries-eng

Borg

The word I would use is barbaric.

[Catchme]

1. The middle east is largely an uncivilized, savage society. For a good example you need not look any further than the execution of Saddam Hussein.

I agree.

Any nation that practices state executions is largely uncivilized.

Are you willing to include China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, UAE, N&S Korea, Japan, Jordan, Egypt, Singapore and about 75 others in this statement?

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-countries-eng

Borg

The word I would use is barbaric.

Then what do you think about US troops kidnapping a 6 year old girl? Or the fact that the GOP has an accused terrorist donating money to them?