Should Cloned Animals Enter Our Food Supply

[betsy]

FDA will announce it safe for public consumption and are saying that it need not have to bear labels since there is no difference at all between naturals and clones. Some opposition groups are saying some research showing more deaths and deformities in producing clones were ignored.

[Technocrat]

This is going to come back and bite them in the ass. Just like GMO products.

I have no real problem with the practice nor the technology. However I can certainly understand why some people would opt not to consume cloned or GMO products. It should therefore carry a lable stating that it is a cloned animal product.

Either way this approval is going to help push more people into the organic camp so ... more sales for me

[Charles Anthony]

This is going to come back and bite them in the ass. Just like GMO products.

Whose ass got bitten by GMO products?

However I can certainly understand why some people would opt not to consume cloned or GMO products.

Please explain. A clone is the same.

I can understand somebody being horrified at the practice and the technology. However, people who have a problem eating clones or genetically modified products should take a high school biology course.

There is no reason to fear eating a clone any more than eating any other animal from the same factory farm.

[blueblood]

This is going to come back and bite them in the ass. Just like GMO products.

Whose ass got bitten by GMO products?

However I can certainly understand why some people would opt not to consume cloned or GMO products.

Please explain. A clone is the same.

I can understand somebody being horrified at the practice and the technology. However, people who have a problem eating clones or genetically modified products should take a high school biology course.

There is no reason to fear eating a clone any more than eating any other animal from the same factory farm.

Well my ass got bit by GMO products, the EU has a big problem with Roundup Ready and Liberty Link canola. But now that biofuel is taking off, they are probably going to remove that ban, wooohooo!!!

Your right about the last part of your post, but I think they should be labeled, You can look at it this way, I like my regular milk fresh off the cow, but they have Soy milk for vegetarians now, I'm sure them and me wouldn't like both of them being labeled as just milk.

[Riverwind]

Please explain. A clone is the same.

Haven't you ever read a science fiction book where successive generations of clones turn into monsters because of random errors in the cloning process? I know it is science fiction but it is a mistake to assume that the cloning process does not introduce problems that would not occur with a natural clone/identical twin.

[Charles Anthony]

Your right about the last part of your post, but I think they should be labeled, You can look at it this way, I like my regular milk fresh off the cow, but they have Soy milk for vegetarians now, I'm sure them and me wouldn't like both of them being labeled as just milk.

I have trouble taking your concern seriously. I am also doubting that you know what genetic modification means. Labelling something as GMO relates to the same produce. In other words, GMO cow milk against natural cow milk or GMO soy milk against natural soy milk or GMO tomatoes against natural tomatoes etc.

Would you be comforted if both soy milk and cow milk were simply label "fluids" ??

Are you worried about getting tomato juice mixed up with cow milk??

I know it is science fiction but it is a mistake to assume that the clone process does not introduce problems that would not occur with a natural clone/identical twin.

I understand. However, those errors technically do not yield clones. They should be more properly called genetic engineering.

It makes no sense to fear cloning or genetic engineering any more than you should fear factory farming.

[blueblood]

have trouble taking your concern seriously. I am also doubting that you know what genetic modification means. Labelling something as GMO relates to the same produce. In other words, GMO cow milk against natural cow milk or GMO soy milk against natural soy milk or GMO tomatoes against natural tomatoes etc.

Im seeing GMO's as a hybrid of the original, and in my opinion i see soy milk as a hybrid of regular milk, I'm saying they should label if its not the original. I was using soy milk and regular milk as an example. I'm just saying stuff should be labeled so that people can exercise some choice. I grow GMO canola and my neighbour grows regular canola, I have an easier time spraying, he has an easier time exporting to Europe.

[Riverwind]

It makes no sense to fear cloning or genetic engineering any more than you should fear factory farming.

Actually, yes it does. Your computer (if you run Windows) has a place called the registry. This is a database that contains all sorts of important stuff that the computer programs use to run. Many computer programs update the registry all of the time as part of their normal operation. The user usually does not need to worry about screwing up the registry if they use programs from trustworthy vendors. However, a user that chooses to bypass the programs and starts to fiddle with the registry directly can accidentally screw up their system and never know why. Genetic engineers are like users that start to muck with the registry. Farmers creating near clones through selective breeding are like users which let their programs update the registry for them.

I don't believe that the current state of the art in genetic engineering is that advanced. They are doing 'let's try this and see what happens' science instead of 'if we want this outcome we can follow exactly these steps' science. If have heard the process of injecting a gene into another species described as the equivalent of firing a marble statue from a canon through the second story window of a museum and hoping it lands upright without wrecking anything important inside the museum.

I don't see any reason to blindly trust the technology at this time.

[crazymf]

Well, I for one would welcome the perfect steak each and every time.

I am not aware anyone particularly checks the genetic makeup of the existing food we eat.

I'm sure it's the knowitall city folk who will be opposed to cloned food, just like opposition to guns.

[blueblood]

Well, I for one would welcome the perfect steak each and every time.

I am not aware anyone particularly checks the genetic makeup of the existing food we eat.

I'm sure it's the knowitall city folk who will be opposed to cloned food, just like opposition to guns.

Small time cattle farmers would be opposed to cloned food too.

[crazymf]

Small time cattle farmers are already in a world of hurt, after the mad cow episodes.

Small time farmers in general don't make enough to show profit for the most part. A lot of my friends work off the farm just to make ends meet.

Maybe Stalin had the right idea with corporate farms. Maybe in a few years all that will be left are the Hutterites.

No, that's a whole nother issue. (nice word huh?) The general public would go on strike if they actually had to pay the farmers what the food should be worth. It's the Safeways and the other middle guys making all the money.

[apollo19]

I think they should enter our food supply. To those complaining about the "little farmer", the day of the independent farmer is over and eventually they will disappear except for niches like organic food. If cloned food allows for cheaper food, then good. If it's more expensive, then I wouldn't expect to see the market accept it.

[Charles Anthony]

Im seeing GMO's as a hybrid of the original, and in my opinion i see soy milk as a hybrid of regular milk,

The cartons are clearly labelled and thus, your fear of GMO's is misapplied to soy milk.

I'm just saying stuff should be labeled so that people can exercise some choice.

I agree with that position. Whether there is a real or perceived danger is not as important as giving people the choice and information. Let the customers fear GMO-related problems by getting canola-margarine mixed up with dairy-butter if they really want, I say. They certainly have that right.

However, the people who want to know whether they are getting natural-canola or GMO-canola or free-range dairy or factory-farm dairy or whatever, they have that right too. Some of those latter consumers likely have valid fears.

You touch on an unfortunate injustice created by GMO industries. Something that not many people examine.

I grow GMO canola and my neighbour grows regular canola, I have an easier time spraying, he has an easier time exporting to Europe.

If your neighbor's GMO-canola seeds are patented, as most are, fly through the air and land on your field, they will grow. Whether you know it or not, the GMO company, with the honorable power of the state, will legally come down on you very very hard. You will pay through no fault of your own.

I would like to hear the statist justification for "intellectual property" on that one.

It makes no sense to fear cloning or genetic engineering any more than you should fear factory farming.

Actually, yes it does. Your computer (if you run Windows)

Thankfully, no! I do not! However, I understand your analogy -- I once was young and foolish. [i could not resist.]

Genetic engineers are like users that start to muck with the registry. Farmers creating near clones through selective breeding are like users which let their programs update the registry for them.

Yes. It would be more proper to look at cloning as more likely to yield biological problems in the future compared to other farming practices. I should not be so ornery and extreme.

The general public would go on strike if they actually had to pay the farmers what the food should be worth. It's the Safeways and the other middle guys making all the money.

I have a LOT of difficulty with that claim. We hear it all of the time. I do not know much about the meat industry but if they are not making enough profit to survive, we are they persisting? Are they like fur coat sellers who are hanging on to a dying industry?

[Remiel]

You touch on an unfortunate injustice created by GMO industries. Something that not many people examine.

I grow GMO canola and my neighbour grows regular canola, I have an easier time spraying, he has an easier time exporting to Europe.

If your neighbor's GMO-canola seeds are patented, as most are, fly through the air and land on your field, they will grow. Whether you know it or not, the GMO company, with the honorable power of the state, will legally come down on you very very hard. You will pay through no fault of your own.

I would like to hear the statist justification for "intellectual property" on that one.

That is one of those things that is so obviously wrong as to be truly sickening.

[Who's Doing What?]

I'm not really to keen on the idea of cloned animals in our food supply, but I really don't see any reason why it shouldn't be allowed. However it would be nice if it were labelled and I could make the choice myself if I wanted to consume it.

[crazymf]

Charles,

There is land in Saskatchewan that is merely not being farmed. Abandoned because it costs more to put in a crop than it's worth to sell. After all is said and done, the farmer can not make it rain.

Also, farmers are the eternal optimists. They love their lifestyle and are into their farms for so much that it would be financial suicide to get out. Working off the farm is a viable solution to remain afloat.

[Fortunata]

So, what happened to making new little cows the old fashioned way? I can't believe that we need to do this to feed ourselves.

I do not trust our government to label properly cloned meat as they do not even think it is necessary to label hazardous products (such as things like Mr. Clean magic eraser) for the benefit of consumers. And, in a meat processing plant where all animals go, how do you keep cloned animals separate from the others? It would, imo, be impossible.

[Who's Doing What?]

Charles,

There is land in Saskatchewan that is merely not being farmed. Abandoned because it costs more to put in a crop than it's worth to sell. After all is said and done, the farmer can not make it rain.

Also, farmers are the eternal optimists. They love their lifestyle and are into their farms for so much that it would be financial suicide to get out. Working off the farm is a viable solution to remain afloat.

I know a farmer who had never had a job until he was 50. That was when pork prices dropped so low he couldn't feed them for what they were worth butchered.

[kimmy]

Please explain. A clone is the same.

Haven't you ever read a science fiction book where successive generations of clones turn into monsters because of random errors in the cloning process? I know it is science fiction but it is a mistake to assume that the cloning process does not introduce problems that would not occur with a natural clone/identical twin.

As I understand it, we're not talking about clones themselves entering the food supply, but rather their offspring.

Cloning is expensive and takes equipment and expertise, and would be ridiculously uneconomical compared to the "old fashioned" way of raising animals. Going to this expense just for the sake of slabbing the animal and sending the meat to Safeway would be utterly moronic.

The application of cloning to our food supply would be in creating highly productive breeding-stock. A farmer who might have once said "Betsy here gives 25% more milk than any other cow in my herd. I wish I had a dozen more like her" can now get his wish. If a particularly productive cow was identified, you'd get her cloned, and probably breed her as well, to a bull whose female relatives are also noted for exceptional production. It's not clones themselves that'll be in the food supply, it's their milk or eggs.

The same logic applies to meat animals. If you've got a prize bull that's exceptionally meaty in all the right places, you're not going to just send him to the sausage factory, you'll want to breed him. Instead of relying on selective breeding and luck to pass on these exceptional characteristics to the next generation, cloning would make it a sure thing. Cloning would give producers the chance to purchase proven stock.

I'm sure that there are some long-term big-picture issues relating to issues like genetic diversity and so on, but if the issue is the safety of the actual food on your plate, I don't see an issue.

-k

[geoffrey]

So, what happened to making new little cows the old fashioned way? I can't believe that we need to do this to feed ourselves.

I do not trust our government to label properly cloned meat as they do not even think it is necessary to label hazardous products (such as things like Mr. Clean magic eraser) for the benefit of consumers. And, in a meat processing plant where all animals go, how do you keep cloned animals separate from the others? It would, imo, be impossible.

Or that detergent you use to clean your clothes. Do some research on what you wear around all day in residue... it's giving you cancer.

But I digress.

Cloned animals aren't any different from the ones in which they came. I believe CA pointed this out earlier, it takes no more than grade 11 biology to know this. And I didn't even take biology.

[blueblood]

I think they should enter our food supply. To those complaining about the "little farmer", the day of the independent farmer is over and eventually they will disappear except for niches like organic food. If cloned food allows for cheaper food, then good. If it's more expensive, then I wouldn't expect to see the market accept it.

I wouldn't say its over, it's on the chopping block. If your under 1000 acres it's time to stop and rent out the land. Over 4000 acres is tough cuz of manpower, machinery, and costs. Ideally you want to be at around 2000-3000 acres for maximum efficiency. It's funny when people say that we should disappear, if thats so then lets remove our laws that protect the recording/entertainment industry and to be more precise the Canadian recording/entertainment industry (CBC), you and I both know without government intervention their ass is as toast as the 500 acre farmer down the road.

With cloned food, you are going to get very high quality food (when it's perfected) you won't have any screw ups, it would be healthier, and could be mass produced. As for expensive goes, that depends on how much people are going to be providing that service, if its all the big corporate boys which is not very many there won't be much competition and you will be paying through the nose, if all cattle producers got this than the prices will be reasonable due to competition, hmm the little farmer doesn't look too bad now. With the spending habits of a lot of people nowadays, they'll pay more for food. Look how much we pay for fuel, cars, and other things.

If your neighbor's GMO-canola seeds are patented, as most are, fly through the air and land on your field, they will grow. Whether you know it or not, the GMO company, with the honorable power of the state, will legally come down on you very very hard. You will pay through no fault of your own.

I would like to hear the statist justification for "intellectual property" on that one.

The neighbour's seeds aren't patented, that's why he has them so he doesn't have all the BS that goes along with GM Canola (for me 50+ bushels/acre is worth the BS). I see you have heard about Percy Schmeiser, he paid the price cuz some jackass wouldn't tarp his truck. I can assure you that is the only way that they can fly through the air, they are in pods right up until they go through the combine. Sure some seeds go out with the chaff and come out as volunteer canola but there is stubble to act as a windbreak and the volunteer canola gets sprayed out the next year.

[geoffrey]

Wow, we have some real farmers here.

[Charles Anthony]

I see you have heard about Percy Schmeiser, he paid the price cuz some jackass wouldn't tarp his truck. I can assure you that is the only way that they can fly through the air, they are in pods right up until they go through the combine.

I do not care how they got there. He is not a victim of the jackass who would not tarp his truck. He is a victim of ridiculous "intellectual property" enforcers.

If a particularly productive cow was identified, you'd get her cloned, and probably breed her as well, to a bull whose female relatives are also noted for exceptional production. It's not clones themselves that'll be in the food supply, it's their milk or eggs.

In that regard, I wonder whether that application will succeed in the long-run as a business venture. If we consider horse-racing, prize-winning studs must mount. The genetic line must be verifiable and witnessed. Nobody is willing to buy a sample of sperm to artificially inseminate for fear of being ripped off.

I'm sure that there are some long-term big-picture issues relating to issues like genetic diversity and so on, but if the issue is the safety of the actual food on your plate, I don't see an issue.

You never know. As RWind pointed out up above, the development of the technology up until a successful clone is created can lead to mistakes -- more likely than the random mutations that normally occur.

[blueblood]

I see you have heard about Percy Schmeiser, he paid the price cuz some jackass wouldn't tarp his truck. I can assure you that is the only way that they can fly through the air, they are in pods right up until they go through the combine.

I do not care how they got there. He is not a victim of the jackass who would not tarp his truck. He is a victim of ridiculous "intellectual property" enforcers.

Agreed, he was the victim of government policy and a multinational corporation, I was merely stating that if the jackass would have tarped his truck, he wouldn't have been in that mess in the first place, which is why when i'm combining canola the trucks get tarped!!! That is completely ridiculous, because of some law i have to pay a lot of money for expensive seed every year when I can just store it in the bin and plant it next year, it's mine after all. It runs me about 32 bucks an acre for that nonsense. If the government believes in that sort of nonsense, I want the same privileges as that multinational corporation, I'm entitled to that as much as they are.