If the 407 is private...

GostHacked · January 18, 2011

Globe and Mail, TUESDAY, JANUARY 30, 2007

If you want to message me with your email, I will send you a copy.

Never mind...here it is.

http://www.gtaa.com/local/files/en/news/travel_advisories/GlobeandMailInsertYYZ.pdf

Like I want to give you my email address ... thanks for the link.

August1991 · January 21, 2011

Here is something for your mind to chew on.
If roads get privatized, any fee incurred on a company for traveling that road will be passed on to the end customer. Expect prices for services and products to go through the roof. The money you pay in taxes at the moment will be far less than the fee you are going to pay for using the road yourself, and any goods that travel that road (carriers and companies pay the fee and pass that along to you with higher prices of goods).

Everything that travels the road will be paying a fee. Your food, your clothes, your furniture, ect ect ect.

GH, we are paying for roads now - through our taxes.

You make it seem as if Martians built the roads and so they cost us nothing. If roads get privatized, I will pay higher costs for goods transported by road, but I won't have to pay taxes to maintain the roads either. I can pay for roads through higher taxes, or I can pay for roads through higher prices.

In a sense, it'a wash.

But this ignores how I might change my purchases if transport costs were factored in directly. I suspect that people would prefer to buy lighter goods!

First of all we already pay both taxes to build the roads, and user fees by way of vehicle and personal drivers licenses to drive on those roads. That means that those who use the roads already pay for them.

Uh no. The current system would be like paying $9000 a year to Costco and then taking whatever you want for free.

True, you are paying but your use is not connected to what you take.

This is based on the notion that all roads will be toll roads...

The technology exists now to do precisely that.

In 20 years or so, that's how we will use roads.

Yeah privatization of critical infrastructure would be an extremely stupid idea.

Do you buy food at a State enterprise? Or is food distribution in Canada privatized?

I think food is critical to life so why do Canadians buy food from private suppliers?

Come to think of it, this "buy local produce" idea is contrary to State production/distribution of food. The leftists that I know prefer to go to a local market to get their food directly from local producers.

Edited January 21, 2011 by August1991

Bonam · January 21, 2011

GH, we are paying for roads now - through our taxes.

You make it seem as if Martians built the roads and so they cost us nothing. If roads get privatized, I will pay higher costs for goods transported by road, but I won't have to pay taxes to maintain the roads either. I can pay for roads through higher taxes, or I can pay for roads through higher prices.

You're assuming your taxes would actually go down. In practice, no tax cut is guaranteed. More likely, the money freed up by the government not paying for roads would only go towards paying for more health care, or paying off deficits. As an individual, your tax burden would likely remain where it was, while you'd also be paying user fees for your roads.

Example: In BC, several major road projects (bridges) have been recently built or are being built and use tolls. No one cut any taxes when they made the decision to collect tolls.

August1991 · January 21, 2011

More likely, the money freed up by the government not paying for roads would only go towards paying for more health care, or paying off deficits. As an individual, your tax burden would likely remain where it was, while you'd also be paying user fees for your roads.

Bonam, what you say is terrifying.

According to you, governments can take whatever money they want. "Money freed up"? Why not impose the taxes now?

Bonam, how far can governments go in taxing us? What's the limit?

Edited January 21, 2011 by August1991

Bonam · January 21, 2011

Bonam, what you say is terrifying.

According to you, governments can take whatever money they want. "Money freed up"? Why not impose the taxes now?

Bonam, how far can governments go in taxing us? What's the limit?

The limit? Whatever the people will bear, of course. Generally, tax hikes are unpopular, and in a party system, if one party proposes or implements tax hikes, they may be more likely to lose to the other party. Hence, there is a limitation to how much taxes are raised, since it is not usually politically advantageous to raise them.

On the other hand, when it comes to tax cuts... the government can always plausibly make the argument that they want to spend money on things like health care, education, or deficit reduction rather than tax cuts and have that be a reasonably popular decision. Thus, if some particular service (like road infrastructure) began to receive less funding from the government as some of it was privatized, it would be perfectly plausible for the government not to implement a tax reduction simultaneously with the service reduction.

In short: cutting taxes is not a huge boon for winning an election, while raising taxes is very likely to adversely affect the chances of getting re-elected. When a government raises taxes, a lot of people are very strongly unhappy. When a government cuts taxes, some people are slightly happy, but the strength of that feeling is low compared to how unhappy they are when taxes are raised.

This asymmetry between political impact of tax cuts and tax hikes (when both correspond symmetrically to the availability of funding for programs) is an example of a widely held cognitive bias.

Edited January 21, 2011 by Bonam

madmax · January 21, 2011

You make it seem as if Martians built the roads and so they cost us nothing. If roads get privatized, I will pay higher costs for goods transported by road, but I won't have to pay taxes to maintain the roads either. I can pay for roads through higher taxes, or I can pay for roads through higher prices.

In a sense, it'a wash.

BULLSHT!!!

You obviously aren't living near a private pay road!

1) We payed for and built the damn highway.

2) We aquired/Expropriated all the lands required to build the highway.

3) We put the tolls on the road to pay for those costs of the above.

Cost to build Highway.

The highway opened in 1997,[8] and highway cost roughly $1.6 billion. The published $1.6 billion cost does not take into account more than $100 billion spent since the early 1970s acquiring the land that it sits on

Then this retarded idea happened

As part of a controversial plan to balance the budget, and just prior to the Harris government's re-election campaign, the highway was leased to a conglomerate of private companies in 1999 for $3.1 billion

This is the Express Toll RipOFF.

Most expensive highway in North America.

We are simply fools and patsies.

407 etr is nothing to cheer about or praise.

guyser · January 21, 2011

BULLSHT!!!

You obviously aren't living near a private pay road!

1) We payed for and built the damn highway.

2) We aquired/Expropriated all the lands required to build the highway.

3) We put the tolls on the road to pay for those costs of the above.

Cost to build Highway.

Then this retarded idea happened

This is the Express Toll RipOFF.

Most expensive highway in North America.

We are simply fools and patsies.

407 etr is nothing to cheer about or praise.

Well done.

Wilber · January 22, 2011

Qls

GH, we are paying for roads now - through our taxes.

You make it seem as if Martians built the roads and so they cost us nothing. If roads get privatized, I will pay higher costs for goods transported by road, but I won't have to pay taxes to maintain the roads either. I can pay for roads through higher taxes, or I can pay for roads through higher prices.

In a sense, it'a wash.

But this ignores how I might change my purchases if transport costs were factored in directly. I suspect that people would prefer to buy lighter goods!

Uh no. The current system would be like paying $9000 a year to Costco and then taking whatever you want for free.

True, you are paying but your use is not connected to what you take.

The technology exists now to do precisely that.

In 20 years or so, that's how we will use roads.

Do you buy food at a State enterprise? Or is food distribution in Canada privatized?

I think food is critical to life so why do Canadians buy food from private suppliers?

Come to think of it, this "buy local produce" idea is contrary to State production/distribution of food. The leftists that I know prefer to go to a local market to get their food directly from local producers.

If someone wants to put the cash to build a road to bring you what you need. If not, you are SOL and will have to find another place to live.

dre · January 22, 2011

GH, we are paying for roads now - through our taxes.

You make it seem as if Martians built the roads and so they cost us nothing. If roads get privatized, I will pay higher costs for goods transported by road, but I won't have to pay taxes to maintain the roads either. I can pay for roads through higher taxes, or I can pay for roads through higher prices.

In a sense, it'a wash.

But this ignores how I might change my purchases if transport costs were factored in directly. I suspect that people would prefer to buy lighter goods!

Uh no. The current system would be like paying $9000 a year to Costco and then taking whatever you want for free.

True, you are paying but your use is not connected to what you take.

The technology exists now to do precisely that.

In 20 years or so, that's how we will use roads.

Do you buy food at a State enterprise? Or is food distribution in Canada privatized?

I think food is critical to life so why do Canadians buy food from private suppliers?

Come to think of it, this "buy local produce" idea is contrary to State production/distribution of food. The leftists that I know prefer to go to a local market to get their food directly from local producers.

Do you buy food at a State enterprise? Or is food distribution in Canada privatized?
I think food is critical to life so why do Canadians buy food from private suppliers?

First of all to describe our agricultural sector as private is a little bit of a stretch. The only reason we can even afford to eat food grown in North America is because the farmers receive gigantic public subsidies.

But moving past that lets look at the difference. A private company can easily by a piece of land and start a farm. Now look at the nations highways and transporation infrastructure. Mind telling me what company was going to build the trans canada highway? It had to be built on public land, and no private road builder than Im away of expressed interest in trying to purchase a strip of property that went from coast to coast, and even if they did it would zigzag back and forth and take a completely indirect route based on which property they were able to buy. And one holdout that refused to sell could scuttle a whole project because private companies can expropriate land.

Even with the road in question, the government had to deal with all that stuff, then they simply handed it over to a company. Thats entirely different that relying on private infrastructure.

dre · January 22, 2011

Globe and Mail, TUESDAY, JANUARY 30, 2007

If you want to message me with your email, I will send you a copy.

Never mind...here it is.

http://www.gtaa.com/local/files/en/news/travel_advisories/GlobeandMailInsertYYZ.pdf

Sure private industries can potentially play a role in things like management and construction but that airport is certainly not a piece of private infrastucture. Most of the land its built on was expropriated by the Government, and most of a town full of people had to be displaced.

And of course theres the fact that the GTAA is not your average private company... they are a psuedo public company that is not allowed to turn a profit. Thats sorta like saying BC Ferries is a private company.

But I dont wanna be dismissive of your example because its actually really good, and thats the kind of involvement by private entities that I could actually support.

The GTAA is a private "entity", thats only goal is to manage the airport and its "mission" is to make it the best airport around. From what I can tell it really has done a good job.

So if "privatization" means private non-profit entities managing infrastructure that dont actually assume ownership of it, and arent allowed to profit from it, then I guess that doesnt sound so bad. If we are going to privatize public infrastructure then the model you proposed is certainly the most palletable one Iv seen!

Edited January 22, 2011 by dre

Wilber · January 22, 2011

Vancouver airport is run the same way and a beautiful airport it is. On a recent trip to San Diego, total departure taxes and fees leaving YVR, about $63. Leaving SAN on the return, $18. That doesn't include GST charged on the whole fare on tickets bought in Canada. Small wonder so many Canadians are opting to use US airports.

Oleg Bach · January 24, 2011

It's astounding that a company that is controlled by those that are not even Canadian citizens can reach from afar and pull a Canadian citizens licence if he owes money to the gods of 407..thank our buisness elite and their political henchmen for selling off things that don't even belong to them.

guyser · January 24, 2011

It's astounding that a company that is controlled by those that are not even Canadian citizens can reach from afar and pull a Canadian citizens licence if he owes money to the gods of 407..thank our buisness elite and their political henchmen for selling off things that don't even belong to them.

It would be astounding yes, but it simply is not true.

It would be astounding if you could sit on the moon and have lunch too. Wonderful !

Oleg Bach · January 25, 2011

It would be astounding yes, but it simply is not true.

It would be astounding if you could sit on the moon and have lunch too. Wonderful !

I heard a rumor that some "French" company had taken over the enterprise a while ago - I could be wrong - so you are telling me that this buisness is owned and operated strickly by Canadian share holders and some board? Oh and as far as lunch on the moon....that would NOT be wonderful...it is gloomy - cold and dark - much like your smart ass response.

Bonam · January 25, 2011

I heard a rumor that some "French" company had taken over the enterprise a while ago - I could be wrong - so you are telling me that this buisness is owned and operated strickly by Canadian share holders and some board? Oh and as far as lunch on the moon....that would NOT be wonderful...it is gloomy - cold and dark - much like your smart ass response.

Actually, during daytime on the Moon, the Sun shines more brilliantly than it ever can on Earth, since there is no atmosphere to get in the way of the sunlight. Additionally, it gets hotter on the Moon during daytime than it ever does anywhere on Earth, since the Sun rises and does not set for 348 hours.

Shakeyhands · January 25, 2011

407 is Private Highway...

ENJOY

The 407 from Burlington to Brock is Privately owned, the extension from Brock to the 115/35 would be provincially owned, until we have another PC Gov't that is.

guyser · January 25, 2011

- I could be wrong - so you are telling me that this buisness is owned and operated strickly by Canadian share holders and some board?

No I am saying that they cannot suspend your drivers licence.

much like your smart ass response.

Better than a dumb ass, no?

Jack Weber · January 25, 2011

BULLSHT!!!

You obviously aren't living near a private pay road!

1) We payed for and built the damn highway.

2) We aquired/Expropriated all the lands required to build the highway.

3) We put the tolls on the road to pay for those costs of the above.

Cost to build Highway.

Then this retarded idea happened

This is the Express Toll RipOFF.

Most expensive highway in North America.

We are simply fools and patsies.

407 etr is nothing to cheer about or praise.

It's even worse than that...

After the Harris' gov't sold it for a song and dance,because the private sector can do things better than the public sector because of "private sector discipline" :blink: :lol: ,they sold it to the current Spanish group that owns the 407 for 3 times what they paid for the highway from the Harris' gov't!!!!

We got hosed!!!

bloodyminded · January 25, 2011

It's even worse than that...

After the Harris' gov't sold it for a song and dance,because the private sector can do things better than the public sector because of "private sector discipline" ,they sold it to the current Spanish group that owns the 407 for 3 times what they paid for the highway from the Harris' gov't!!!!

We got hosed!!!

Since "private sector discipline" means they can make a lot of money, there's really no contradiction.

Hosed? Definitely.

Oleg Bach · January 25, 2011

Love it when private enterprise decides to sell off things encluding infrastructure that were paid for by the publc via public dollars...We toss in a billion bucks for something - then out of the blue some overly privledged group of lawyers decide that they own us and all that we have created and paid for - so they sell what is not theirs. Something is wrong with this picture. It's like the old dome stadium.....paid for by the public and handed away to private hands at dollar store rates...w t f***?

dre · January 26, 2011

Love it when private enterprise decides to sell off things encluding infrastructure that were paid for by the publc via public dollars...We toss in a billion bucks for something - then out of the blue some overly privledged group of lawyers decide that they own us and all that we have created and paid for - so they sell what is not theirs. Something is wrong with this picture. It's like the old dome stadium.....paid for by the public and handed away to private hands at dollar store rates...w t f***?

Thats why there should be a complete moratorium on government flogging off public assets. Its just TOO DAMN EASY to flog stuff in order to pay for short term budget defecits.

Mr.Canada · January 29, 2011

Here's an interesting one. A bill came the other day for our daughter in law from the 407, she's died 6years ago on the 8 th of December. They are going to take her to small claims court.

For any of you who don't know about the 407 it was a new highway above Toronto. It was rented out by the Harris Government to a private company.

This company has the right to take away your divers liscence if you don't pay. It also signed an agreement with Ernie Eves that they wouldn't raise the rates more than 2% a year, they have gone up 200%. Seems there was a little * beside Eves assurances that only if use warranted could they raise the price. Well the people who run the 407 are the only ones who can judge use, they refuse to give any explanations of how they arrive at the figures. It seems dead easy to me just count the users when you bill them, why is it a secret"

Well don't be such a deadbeat and pay the damned bill already. Surely between yours and your in laws family I'm sure you guys can scrape together enough to pay the bill. Being dead(as sad as that is) doesn't excuse the rest of your family trying to take money out of my pocket because you're too cheap to pay the damned bill.

It is a private company , and as such if you dont like to pay don't use it. I rarely ever go on because I don't like paying for it.

As for driver licences non-renewal, that changed sometime back, although the company is going to court to re-instate that stupid perk.

Guyser, complete agreement. It's a miracle.

I guess the 407 was build for luxury.

I can't afford to travel on this highway because it is rather costly. I have received a few of the bills so I know - I try my best to avoid making myself poorer.

The 407 is for people with jobs that need to get to them. If people on welfare cannot afford to take the 407 I don't have a lot of sympathy for that. My wife used to take it everyday from Toronto to Mississauga. The bill was $200 a month. That isn't a lot of money. If you don't make enough money find a new job. Either way it isn't my problem, call Jack Layton maybe he'll give you a shoulder to cry on. I hear that's his thing when he's not pushing people down to get on camera.

Jack Weber · January 29, 2011

Well don't be such a deadbeat and pay the damned bill already. Surely between yours and your in laws family I'm sure you guys can scrape together enough to pay the bill. Being dead(as sad as that is) doesn't excuse the rest of your family trying to take money out of my pocket because you're too cheap to pay the damned bill.

Guyser, complete agreement. It's a miracle.

The 407 is for people with jobs that need to get to them. If people on welfare cannot afford to take the 407 I don't have a lot of sympathy for that. My wife used to take it everyday from Toronto to Mississauga. The bill was $200 a month. That isn't a lot of money. If you don't make enough money find a new job. Either way it isn't my problem, call Jack Layton maybe he'll give you a shoulder to cry on. I hear that's his thing when he's not pushing people down to get on camera.

Mr.Falange...

Half witted elitist at your disposal...

GostHacked · January 30, 2011

Well don't be such a deadbeat and pay the damned bill already. Surely between yours and your in laws family I'm sure you guys can scrape together enough to pay the bill. Being dead(as sad as that is) doesn't excuse the rest of your family trying to take money out of my pocket because you're too cheap to pay the damned bill.

Are you f*cking kidding me? This is not the most asinine thing you have posted here, but it's pretty close. Pay your bills Mr. Canada, because I sure as hell don't want to pay for that if you happen to be dead.

The 407 is for people with jobs that need to get to them. If people on welfare cannot afford to take the 407 I don't have a lot of sympathy for that. My wife used to take it everyday from Toronto to Mississauga. The bill was $200 a month. That isn't a lot of money. If you don't make enough money find a new job. Either way it isn't my problem, call Jack Layton maybe he'll give you a shoulder to cry on. I hear that's his thing when he's not pushing people down to get on camera.

So you are paying 2400 for the whole year. There is a lot of other things I could be doing with 2400 bucks, like taking a vacation overseas once a year.

People on welfare can barely pay rent and eat. Never mind having a car and insurance and gas to pay for.

Mr.Canada · January 30, 2011

People on welfare can barely pay rent and eat. Never mind having a car and insurance and gas to pay for.

That's too damned bad. Welfare is supposed to be temporary help not a permanent source of income.

Plenty of immigrants are on welfare and have cars. Go to any welfare office and you'll see many cars in the parking lot. Welfare recipients coming and going...driving themselves in their tax payer funded autos from their tax payer funded housing to their Welfare offices to get their cheques for life. We're paying money for these immigrants to live in Canada.

Our tax dollars are funding their lifestyles. Our tax dollars are paying for their mortgage, their car payments, insurance, groceries and electronics. The immigration system in this country is fraud on the Canadian people. We're being bullied into this by the vocal left who want everything to be socialized like a communist state. This is their trial run, with the immigrants. Open your eyes.

Non white immigrants are given huge cheques when they land in Canada. Money for down payments for houses, money for cars. The poor non white immigrants get tons of money handed to them so therefore many of them have cars.