GostHacked Posted January 15, 2011 Report Posted January 15, 2011 We all pay taxes. I refer to paying for the use of a road. Shwa, why should a single mother without a car pay any taxes to maintain a roadway/highway so that a Westmount/Rosedale resident can drive their Mercedes S500? IMV, we should charge car drivers for road use. The technology exists to do this. The 407 is an example and IMV, this technology will soon exist around the world. She can take a bus. That bus travels the roads she pays taxes on. Or if she takes a cab, or walks on the sidewalk on the side of the road. And it's nothing more than a money grab from the people to a private corporation. With corporations owning everything eventually you are going to be charged for the air you are breathing. We pay taxes for the infrastructure, we pay taxes to fix it, we pay pay pay pay pay and get less and less out of it. Or it gets turned over to a private corp. You have already paid for the road in your taxes. How much are you willing to pay to travel that road? And at what point does it become to expensive for you to use? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 15, 2011 Report Posted January 15, 2011 The city person who never travels the road still benefits from the road indirectly. Even libertarians say that the government needs to exist for roads & military. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Shwa Posted January 15, 2011 Report Posted January 15, 2011 The city person who never travels the road still benefits from the road indirectly. Even libertarians say that the government needs to exist for roads & military. And for food and goods. Quote
Shwa Posted January 15, 2011 Report Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) We all pay taxes. I refer to paying for the use of a road. Shwa, why should a single mother without a car pay any taxes to maintain a roadway/highway so that a Westmount/Rosedale resident can drive their Mercedes S500? IMV, we should charge car drivers for road use. The technology exists to do this. The 407 is an example and IMV, this technology will soon exist around the world. Well how much does your single-mother-without-a-car pay for gas? Edited January 15, 2011 by Shwa Quote
Wilber Posted January 17, 2011 Report Posted January 17, 2011 I will go on the record as preferring private intercity highways. We now have the low-cost technology to charge users for road use. IMV, large, heavy trucks who drive on highways should pay for their road use. Individuals who drive their cars on highways should also pay for this. When I take the Metro in Montreal, I swipe my Opus card. Drivers should do the same when they drive on roads/highways. ---- In this 21st century, I am astonished that vehicle owners travel on roads without any payment. Is the Internet free? Vehicle users pay fuel taxes and have to provide, insure and maintain their own rolling stock. Transit subsidies run into the billions and their passengers don't pay anywhere near the full cost of their fares. If you are going to privatize highways, privatize the bus systems and subways as well. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Bonam Posted January 17, 2011 Report Posted January 17, 2011 We all pay taxes. I refer to paying for the use of a road. Shwa, why should a single mother without a car pay any taxes to maintain a roadway/highway so that a Westmount/Rosedale resident can drive their Mercedes S500? IMV, we should charge car drivers for road use. The technology exists to do this. The 407 is an example and IMV, this technology will soon exist around the world. What kind of argument is this? Why should a healthy twenty year old pay any taxes to maintain a hospital so that the sick and old can use it? Why should a childless person pay any taxes to maintain schools which educate the children of others? That is how socialism works. If you don't like paying for what you don't use in principle, then all these things should be user fees, or better yet, privatized. But if you agree with taxes for health and education, then why not for roads? I see no reason to single out transportation infrastructure as an enterprise unworthy of tax money being spent on it. Quote
August1991 Posted January 17, 2011 Report Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) What kind of argument is this? Why should a healthy twenty year old pay any taxes to maintain a hospital so that the sick and old can use it? Why should a childless person pay any taxes to maintain schools which educate the children of others?Uh, because the 20 year old may use the road or hospital? (But to be honest, you support my argument that road users should pay for this.)Schools? You got me. I guess that a childless adult would prefer to live in a society of literate adults. Bonam, you raise good questions. How much are you or I the keepers of our sisters/brothers? I don't think that I should pay for their roads or their gasoline when the technology exists to charge them for the use. IMV, if you take a litre of gasoline: you pay for it. If you take a metre of road: you also pay for it. The road ain't free. Edited January 17, 2011 by August1991 Quote
Bonam Posted January 17, 2011 Report Posted January 17, 2011 Uh, because the 20 year old may use the road or hospital? (But to be honest, you support my argument that road users should pay for this.) Schools? You got me. I guess that a childless adult would prefer to live in a society of literate adults. Bonam, you raise good questions. How much are you or I the keepers of our sisters/brothers? I don't think that I should pay for their roads or their gasoline when the technology exists to charge them for the use. IMV, if you take a litre of gasoline: you pay for it. If you take a metre of road: you also pay for it. The road ain't free. Again, if you take a hospital bed, or a school desk: you pay for it. None of that is free either. The technology exists to charge people for using these services. The logic is exactly the same. You cannot remain logically consistent while opposing some of these but supporting others based on the arguments that you have brought forth. Quote
August1991 Posted January 17, 2011 Report Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) Again, if you take a hospital bed, or a school desk: you pay for it. None of that is free either. The technology exists to charge people for using these services. The logic is exactly the same.Uh, the logic is not the same.If you are ill with a communicable disease, that affects me. If you are illiterate, that affects me if I live with you in a civilized society. For purely selfish reasons, I am willing to pay you to be healthy and educated. OTOH, if you use a road, well you just take up space. In fact, you may pollute my air using the road. IOW, you should pay me for the road. I am tired of paying for roads used by others. I don't pay for their groceries so why should I pay for their roads? ---- But Bonam, there's a much broader and better question that you ignore: How much would you pay to be who you are? (Thinking of Mick Jagger or Rod Stewart, that question deserves another thread.) Edited January 17, 2011 by August1991 Quote
Bonam Posted January 17, 2011 Report Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) Uh, the logic is not the same. If you are ill with a communicable disease, that affects me. If you are illiterate, that affects me if I live with you in a civilized society. For purely selfish reasons, I am willing to pay you to be healthy and educated. Yeah and if I can't drive my truck full of food from my farm to your local grocery store then you starve. You need that road, for "purely selfish reasons", whether you personally use it or not. The logic IS the same. If anything, roads are far more fundamental to a functioning civilization than schools or hospitals. OTOH, if you use a road, well you just take up space. In fact, you may pollute my air using the road. IOW, you should pay me for the road. Yeah well you pollute my air by just breathing. You should pay me for using the Earth's air. But Bonam, there's a much broader and better question that you ignore: How much would you pay to be who you are? (Thinking of Mick Jagger or Rod Stewart, that question deserves another thread.) I'm not sure of the relevance of that question to this topic. Considering that one's identity is inherent to the experience of existence as a person, one cannot be forced to "pay" for it. Unless you propose threatening people with some kind of destructive neurological procedure that annihilates their identity unless they pay up. Edited January 17, 2011 by Bonam Quote
charter.rights Posted January 17, 2011 Report Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) First of all we already pay both taxes to build the roads, and user fees by way of vehicle and personal drivers licenses to drive on those roads. That means that those who use the roads already pay for them. The fact that one may avoid major highways is a moot point, since we all derive benefit from them, either in the goods or services that are delivered to the places we shop, or that ambulance and fire services that have the expressways there, just in case we need their assistance. Hospitals are more than just personal care facilities. They are public health facilities and we draw on our knowledge of the spread infectious diseases, or lack of health care to make the case for tax support of these facilities. The days of quarantining infected individuals in their own homes is no longer possible and so we all need hospitals not only for cures but for public health protection. The problem with hospitals in my opinion isn't the cost of providing those services, but in educating the wimpy parents who run their children in at every sniffle and sneeze. Thus a major part of public health must budget for public education. A fever is not fatal and most fevers can be easily treated at home..... Finally, our taxes are the dues we pay for participating in society. One has the choice to go into isolation in some backwoods cabin, live completely off the land with no income and work for their living by the dirt on their hands. However, if one wants the benefit of companionship, social interaction, and economy, then you pay your dues and quit whining. Privatization does not solve social issue. It merely creates them and makes then them worse. Edited January 17, 2011 by charter.rights Quote “Safeguarding the rights of others is the most noble and beautiful end of a human being.” Kahlil Gibran “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” Albert Einstein
GostHacked Posted January 17, 2011 Report Posted January 17, 2011 OTOH, if you use a road, well you just take up space. In fact, you may pollute my air using the road. IOW, you should pay me for the road. I am tired of paying for roads used by others. I don't pay for their groceries so why should I pay for their roads? Here is something for your mind to chew on. If roads get privatized, any fee incurred on a company for traveling that road will be passed on to the end customer. Expect prices for services and products to go through the roof. The money you pay in taxes at the moment will be far less than the fee you are going to pay for using the road yourself, and any goods that travel that road (carriers and companies pay the fee and pass that along to you with higher prices of goods). Everything that travels the road will be paying a fee. Your food, your clothes, your furniture, ect ect ect. Prices in restaurants will be higher because the food they buy has to travel the toll road now. Prices of goods in department stores and grocery stores will be higher. The gas you buy will be higher because the carrier has to pay a fee to deliver the gas. Emergency services will have to pay a fee for that toll road now. Your house burned to the ground because the fire department did not want to pay the road toll fee. Ever order delivery? Yeah that is going up because the delivery person has to pay a fee, or if you opt for the take out, then you have to pay the fee when you go get your food. I doubt you really have though all this through. In the end August, you like all of us would be paying MORE if roads were privatized and a fee incurred on using them each time. Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 17, 2011 Report Posted January 17, 2011 Here is something for your mind to chew on. If roads get privatized, any fee incurred on a company for traveling that road will be passed on to the end customer. Expect prices for services and products to go through the roof. The money you pay in taxes at the moment will be far less than the fee you are going to pay for using the road yourself, and any goods that travel that road (carriers and companies pay the fee and pass that along to you with higher prices of goods). Everything that travels the road will be paying a fee. Your food, your clothes, your furniture, ect ect ect. Prices in restaurants will be higher because the food they buy has to travel the toll road now. Prices of goods in department stores and grocery stores will be higher. The gas you buy will be higher because the carrier has to pay a fee to deliver the gas. Emergency services will have to pay a fee for that toll road now. Your house burned to the ground because the fire department did not want to pay the road toll fee. Ever order delivery? Yeah that is going up because the delivery person has to pay a fee, or if you opt for the take out, then you have to pay the fee when you go get your food. I doubt you really have though all this through. In the end August, you like all of us would be paying MORE if roads were privatized and a fee incurred on using them each time. This whole post is based on an assupmtion and a faulty assumption. 1)If roads get privatized, any fee incurred on a company for traveling that road will be passed on to the end customer. Expect prices for services and products to go through the roof. The money you pay in taxes at the moment will be far less than the fee you are going to pay for using the road yourself, and any goods that travel that road (carriers and companies pay the fee and pass that along to you with higher prices of goods). You assume that infrastructure maintanence is not already factored in the revenue stream. There ius nothing to indicate that this is true. You assume that it will cost more for me with tolls over taxes...even though the vast majority of Ontarians don't use the 407. You assume that the costs for transoport will affect all of us, but thyen you alos assume that everything will be transported on toll roads...that is definately not the case. Most transport will be on the open highway. '0 Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
GostHacked Posted January 17, 2011 Report Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) This whole post is based on an assupmtion and a faulty assumption. You assume that infrastructure maintanence is not already factored in the revenue stream. There ius nothing to indicate that this is true. You assume that it will cost more for me with tolls over taxes...even though the vast majority of Ontarians don't use the 407. You assume that the costs for transoport will affect all of us, but thyen you alos assume that everything will be transported on toll roads...that is definately not the case. Most transport will be on the open highway. '0 This is based on the notion that all roads will be toll roads (because of someone wanting privatization of the roads) So yes it is all assumptions. Thanks for the update. Edited January 17, 2011 by GostHacked Quote
dre Posted January 17, 2011 Report Posted January 17, 2011 This is based on the notion that all roads will be toll roads (because of someone wanting privatization of the roads) So yes it is all assumptions. Thanks for the update. Yeah privatization of critical infrastructure would be an extremely stupid idea. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
M.Dancer Posted January 18, 2011 Report Posted January 18, 2011 Yeah privatization of critical infrastructure would be an extremely stupid idea. Like airports? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted January 18, 2011 Report Posted January 18, 2011 Explain? Who do you think manages Canada's busiest airport? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
GostHacked Posted January 18, 2011 Report Posted January 18, 2011 Who do you think manages Canada's busiest airport? Again ..... explain. Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 18, 2011 Report Posted January 18, 2011 Yeah privatization of critical infrastructure would be an extremely stupid idea. Explain? Who do you think manages Canada's busiest airport? Again ..... explain. What is there to explain? The GTAA managed to complete a multi billion dollar infrastructure improvement that cam in on time, on budget and not one penny came from the public purse. It is one of the best managed airports in the world. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
GostHacked Posted January 18, 2011 Report Posted January 18, 2011 What is there to explain? The GTAA managed to complete a multi billion dollar infrastructure improvement that cam in on time, on budget and not one penny came from the public purse. It is one of the best managed airports in the world. Not one penny from the government, no money from my taxes? I highly doubt that. Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 18, 2011 Report Posted January 18, 2011 Not one penny from the government, no money from my taxes? I highly doubt that. Feel free to doubt. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
GostHacked Posted January 18, 2011 Report Posted January 18, 2011 Feel free to doubt. Feel free to back up your statement. Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 18, 2011 Report Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) Canadas leading international airport just benefited from the largest infrastructure project in Canadian history, a $4.5-billion redevelopment accomplished on time, on budget and without public dollars. Even before the job was done, the Institute of Transport Management named Toronto Pearson International Airport the Best Global Airport in 2006. You might say Toronto Pearson is flying high. Globe and Mail, TUESDAY, JANUARY 30, 2007 If you want to message me with your email, I will send you a copy. Never mind...here it is. http://www.gtaa.com/local/files/en/news/travel_advisories/GlobeandMailInsertYYZ.pdf Edited January 18, 2011 by M.Dancer Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
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