Palestine: Peace or Apartheid

[Higgly]

Also, learn to spell,

Oh no! The dreaded spellig correction. Yes mistress. LOL.

[Higgly]

So the U.S. and Israel were right when they asked the UN and other countries to hold off on endorsing a coalition PA Government controlled by the terrorist group Hamas. By these statement Hamas has not renounced violence and they have not acknowledged Israel's right to exist...

I guess I am a little confused. What is Hamas? Can you tell me where they came from and who they are? Thank you. I am just a humble student of history.

[buffycat]

Hi Higgly,

Hamas was orginally funded by the Israeli Admin as a counter to Arafat's PLO.

Divide and conquer.

[scribblet]

So the U.S. and Israel were right when they asked the UN and other countries to hold off on endorsing a coalition PA Government controlled by the terrorist group Hamas. By these statement Hamas has not renounced violence and they have not acknowledged Israel's right to exist...

I guess I am a little confused. What is Hamas? Can you tell me where they came from and who they are? Thank you. I am just a humble student of history.

I think you know what Hamas is, but Israel had nothing to do with creating Hamas. Hamas grew as an armed wing of the Islamic fund. Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt in the 1920s. It evolved into a miltant Islamist movement.

There is a huge ME industry churning out misinformation which caters to the needs of people who will believe what want to believe, especially when it comes to painting Israel as the bad guy.

[Figleaf]

I guess I am a little confused. What is Hamas? Can you tell me where they came from and who they are? Thank you. I am just a humble student of history.

I think you know what Hamas is, but Israel had nothing to do with creating Hamas. Hamas grew as an armed wing of the Islamic fund. Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt in the 1920s. It evolved into a miltant Islamist movement.

There is a huge ME industry churning out misinformation which caters to the needs of people who will believe what want to believe, especially when it comes to painting Israel as the bad guy.

Oh, well then, that clears that up.

[buffycat]

This board doesn't have a rolling eye function eh?

Hamas was certainly funded and encouraged in its early years by the Israeli Admin. This is a given Scribbles. As usual hit and run... no substance.. more props.

Whatever... yawn - you guys learn nothing new do you? Must be great to hate.

[ScottSA]

This board doesn't have a rolling eye function eh?

Hamas was certainly funded and encouraged in its early years by the Israeli Admin. This is a given Scribbles.

Care to back this up with something? Anything?

[DogOnPorch]

Internet sources confirm scriblett's findings. More historical revision on B_Cat's part.

----------------------------------------------------

It was my dream, and probably the dream of every one of us, to bring about a revision of the Versailles Treaty by peaceful means, which was provided for in that very treaty.

---SS-Obergruppenführer Hans Frank

[Guthrie]

It seems different internet sources tell different histories.

USA Today

December 1987: First Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation erupts, and Yassin founds Hamas as an Islamic resistance movement against Israel.

[scribblet]

Whatever... yawn - you guys learn nothing new do you? Must be great to hate.

Another example of great debating techniques - have to remember that one. When there is nothing of substance to offer, use ad hominems.

[Rue]

"Hamas was orginally funded by the Israeli Admin as a counter to Arafat's PLO. Divide and conquer."

ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

In 1978, Israel’s immediate threat to its existence was Arafat and the PLO and as a political tactic seeking to undermine Arafat’s popularity them Premier Begin arranged it so that the then 42-year old quadriplegic religious leader in the Gaza Strip, Sheik Ahmad Yassin, would be allowed to run a humanitarian organization called the Islamic Association.

Israel did not and never at any time funded Hamas. It funded the Islamic Association which was not a military or para-military unit. It was in fact a social charity that built schools, roads, and ran hospitals and denounced any form of armed struggle or violence.

At that time it was in fact the PLO and in particular its Al-Fatah Organization as well as the Islamic Jihad and Popular Front For The Liberation of Palestine engaged in violence not the Islamic Association.

At that time The Islamic Association was in fact a benevolent charity that created schools, hospitals and businesses and provided an alternative to the PLO which was in fact a drug cartel shipping brown heroin from Iran and Syria to Marseilles, France and was taking this drug money and stolen international development funds and re-routing them to French and Swiss bank accounts with the full assistance of the Swiss and French governments the the Deuzieme Bureaus full involvement in preventing Interpol and the French national police from busting up the drug cartel.

Unlike the corrupt French stooge Arafat , the Islamic Association at that time provided benevolent services to its people and because it was firmly opposed to violence of course would be supported by Israel as a peaceful alternative to Arafat's Al Fatah and the Islamic Jihand and PFLP,.

In fact Hamas did not evolve until 1988 after it ws formed to fight Al Fatah and engage in war not justw ith Israel but the PLO.

Hamas was in fact created and funded by Iran and Syria and the Wahabui sect in Saudi Arabia NOT Israel.

In fact during the Islamic Association's peaceful reign, Israel funded the salaries of 19,000 Palestinians including 11,000 teaehrs, social workers, nurses and doctors.

So go on and roll your eyes or feign ignorance but as usual you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Israel had every reason to believe the Islamic Association would continue to refrain from violence -look how much it was able to achieve by refusing to engage in violence!

More to the point, why do we once again have to deal with this two-faced hippocritical double standard as to alleged Israeli behaviour with this b.s. inference that Israel was hippocritical for forming an alliance with a peaceful benevolent organization, simply because it then turned on it.

where do any of you get off inferring Israel is the only nation in the world to try make an alliance with a group or leader that would later turn on them.

Tell me you eye-rolling geniuses, whose side was Stalin on at the beginning of World War Two and which nation had Senators and prominent businessmen assuring its American citizens Hitler and Mussolini were o.k. guys and preventing it from forming an alliance with Britain? How about Gamel Abdel Nasser, Mummar Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, all financially funded by the CIA in their coups and all who turned on the US?

How about the Taliban who were created and funded by the CIA to fight the dirty Russian commies in Afghanistan? You think Valerie Giscard D’Estang and then Jacques Chirac of France had and have any problems openly supporting the terrorist actions of the PLO and supporting Hezbollah even after Hezbollah attacked and killed French soldiers in Lebanon? You think the French had any problems supporting the Popular Front For the Liberation of Palestine and turning on its supposed allies in Lebanon the Phalangistes?

You think France has any problem funding the Syrian government? You think Germany and France had any problems selling chemical weapons and nuclear technology to both Iraq and Iran? You think the Chinese have any problem protecting the Sudanese government and funding its genocide in Darfur or funding the current Iranian regime? You think Tony Blair had any problem going to Tripoli and kissing Gaddafi’s feet?

Give it a rest with your pathetic attempts to infer Israel is the only country to have a quetsionable ally or an ally that turned on them.

[Guest chilipeppers]

"Hamas was orginally funded by the Israeli Admin as a counter to Arafat's PLO. Divide and conquer."

ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

In 1978, Israel’s immediate threat to its existence was Arafat and the PLO and as a political tactic seeking to undermine Arafat’s popularity them Premier Begin arranged it so that the then 42-year old quadriplegic religious leader in the Gaza Strip, Sheik Ahmad Yassin, would be allowed to run a humanitarian organization called the Islamic Association.

Thanks for that nice to see someone standing up to veiled anti semitism.

[Figleaf]

Internet sources confirm scriblett's findings.

Cite??

[Figleaf]

This board doesn't have a rolling eye function eh?

Do you mean this ?

[Figleaf]

"Hamas was orginally funded by the Israeli Admin as a counter to Arafat's PLO. Divide and conquer."

ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

In 1978, Israel’s immediate threat to its existence was Arafat and the PLO and as a political tactic seeking to undermine Arafat’s popularity them Premier Begin arranged it so that the then 42-year old quadriplegic religious leader in the Gaza Strip, Sheik Ahmad Yassin, would be allowed to run a humanitarian organization called the Islamic Association.

Just so I understand here, Rue. Are you saying that Hamas did not emerge from the Islamic Association?

[Higgly]

"Hamas was orginally funded by the Israeli Admin as a counter to Arafat's PLO. Divide and conquer."

ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

In 1978, Israel’s immediate threat to its existence was Arafat and the PLO and as a political tactic seeking to undermine Arafat’s popularity them Premier Begin arranged it so that the then 42-year old quadriplegic religious leader in the Gaza Strip, Sheik Ahmad Yassin, would be allowed to run a humanitarian organization called the Islamic Association.

Israel did not and never at any time funded Hamas.

Heh heh... I love it.

[DogOnPorch]

Figleaf: Cite??

The original: "Al-Mujamma al Islami" (Islamic Community Organization) became "Harakat Al-Mujamma al Islami" (Islamic Resistance Movement) in 1987 during the Infatada. The original...a Palestinian welfare orginization was indeed formed in Israel in 1978 by Yasin. However the Harakat (the Movement) was formed later in Egypt. At least that's my understanding. The original being for welfare...not warfare.

The confusion between the two was compounded by some bad reporting on Richard Sale's part and some misunderstood statements from Anthony Cordesman. It should also be noted that Hamas's notorious Covenant was written in 1988. No doubt, before it was a group of radical rocket lobbing terrorists, Israel thought it could be of some use in countering the PLO...but they didn't support the group as some sort of Palestinian killing Israeli terrorist unit.

You're free to correct me if you feel that this is inaccurate.

-------------------------------------------------------

Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations.

---Yasser Arafat

[jbg]

Carter's negotiation, on the US's behalf but with no authority, of the ad hoc deal with NK, which Clinton was forced to accept, was an act of disloyalty, as has Carter's continuing dalliance with the Palestinians.

Phoquing stupid comment.

Care to explain, without profanity? Or is that beyond what you're capable of?

[jbg]

Also, learn to spell,

Oh no! The dreaded spellig correction. Yes mistress. LOL.

Let's try this again (suggested edits in strikeout and red):

Anybody who lumps the Palestinians in with Kim Jong Il is shotgunning (not sure what you meant by that) foreign policy. Have you either been to been to either the West Bank or North Korea? An amazing juxtoposition juxtaposition. Scarey Scary to think that everyone in New York might think the way you do. Beyond racism really. Psychiatric Maybe you mean "psychiatric"?

[Figleaf]

Internet sources confirm scriblett's findings.

Figleaf: Cite??

The original: "Al-Mujamma al Islami" (Islamic Community Organization) became "Harakat Al-Mujamma al Islami" (Islamic Resistance Movement) in 1987 during the Infatada. The original...a Palestinian welfare orginization was indeed formed in Israel in 1978 by Yasin. However the Harakat (the Movement) was formed later in Egypt. At least that's my understanding. The original being for welfare...not warfare.

The confusion between the two was compounded by some bad reporting on Richard Sale's part and some misunderstood statements from Anthony Cordesman. It should also be noted that Hamas's notorious Covenant was written in 1988. No doubt, before it was a group of radical rocket lobbing terrorists, Israel thought it could be of some use in countering the PLO...but they didn't support the group as some sort of Palestinian killing Israeli terrorist unit.

You're free to correct me if you feel that this is inaccurate.

D.O.P., master of the non-sequitur!

I have no idea whether it's inaccurate, but I do know it's not responsive. Where is the citation that supports your contention that scriblett was right?

Did you quote me by mistake? How does your answer respond to my question???

[Figleaf]

Carter's negotiation, on the US's behalf but with no authority, of the ad hoc deal with NK, which Clinton was forced to accept, was an act of disloyalty, as has Carter's continuing dalliance with the Palestinians.

Phoquing stupid comment.

Care to explain, without profanity? Or is that beyond what you're capable of?

What's to explain? Your statement was totally phoquing stupid in so many ways it almost beggars description.

But okay, since you ask...

First, you claim to be an attorney. Presumably, then, you know what it means to act on someone's 'behalf'. But despite this knowledge you write the stunning inconsistency that Carter somehow negotiated 'on behalf' but with 'no authority'. That's a stupid statement.

Second, it's stupid to pretend that Carter's negotiations could 'force' a sitting president to accept a deal he doesn't want to. If you know the first thing about U.S. constitutionality (as presumably you would claim to) , you'd know that that's a total misconstruction of the nature of presidential authority.

Third, you suggest, without any foundation whatsoever, that Carter's good faith negotiation efforts were somehow maliciously motivated. That's a pretty stupid thing to suggest, frankly.

Finally, the suggestion that acknowledging the tragedy visited on the Palestinians is somehow treacherous to the United States is totally disconnected and illogical.

[ScottSA]

Finally, the suggestion that acknowledging the tragedy visited on the Palestinians is somehow treacherous to the United States is totally disconnected and illogical.

Ackowledging the tragedy is not synonymous with attributing the tragedy to our favorite scapegoats, the sons of pigs and apes.

The Palestinian's tragedy is the Palestinians. They are incorrigible losers. First, as desert vagabonds, they antagonize every Arab within 300 miles, then lose a teensy strip of land and suddenly discover the angst of losing a homeland they never had, leap on their camels to get it back and end up losing more huge swathes of land instead. Not content with these great leaps forward, they manage to get pushed into Lebanon, where they bait the tiger until it damned near pushes them into the sea, whereupon they blow up an American base put there to protect them and end up getting shelled by US battleships. For some reason unbenownst to me they're then allowed back, whereupon they set about blowing up Israelis in an attempt to gain enough of their trust to get the beloved homeland they never had, and spend the next couple of decades alternating between killing Israelis and demanding goodwill from them. Finally they get the beloved homeland they never had and what do they do? Start a civil war. Monty Python's head injury patients could do a better job of setting up a government.

It's a tragedy alright.

[scribblet]

As Golda Meir said: If they (Palestinians) loved their children as much as they hate Israel, there would be peace.

The Root of their problems is hate indoctrination, and until that changes I doubt their situation will improve.

speaking of 'apes and pigs'

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,21556...from=public_rss

Islamic hate film gets PG rating By Liam Houlihan

April 15, 2007 01:00am

A PRO-TERROR hate film that urges children to martyr themselves in Islam's war on the West and calls Jews "pigs" has been rated PG by Australia's censors.

Sheik Feiz Mohammed's DVD box set, which also calls for the murder of non-believers, was initially seized by Federal anti-terror police.

But the Office of Film and Literature Classification has ruled that The Death Series is suitable to be bought and watched by children.

The shock decision has seen the nation's peak censorship body slammed as weak and out of touch by family groups and the Jewish community.

It has also made a mockery of the Attorney-General's plans to bring in tough new laws that ban material which "advocates" terrorism.

[Figleaf]

Finally, the suggestion that acknowledging the tragedy visited on the Palestinians is somehow treacherous to the United States is totally disconnected and illogical.

Ackowledging the tragedy is not synonymous with attributing the tragedy to our favorite scapegoats, the sons of pigs and apes.

Wha-a-a-a-at???

The Palestinian's tragedy is the Palestinians. They are incorrigible losers.

Sure, politically they've made a couple of key strategic mistakes, but they've also been badly used by Israel, the post-war Western powers, and to a certain extent by neighboring Arab states.

The key wrong done to them was the imposition of the state of Israel in their territory over their unequivocal opposition and in denial of their rights to self-determination. This harm precipitated the traumas that followed.

[jbg]

As Golda Meir said: If they (Palestinians) loved their children as much as they hate Israel, there would be peace.

The Root of their problems is hate indoctrination, and until that changes I doubt their situation will improve.

speaking of 'apes and pigs'

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,21556...from=public_rss

This song, One Tin Soldier (The Legend of Billy Jack) (link to lyrics), though in a different context, is relevant:

One Tin Soldier (The Legend of Billy Jack)

by Lambert-Potter, sung by Coven

Listen, children, to a story

That was written long ago,

'Bout a kingdom on a mountain

And the valley-folk below.

On the mountain was a treasure

Buried deep beneath the stone,

And the valley-people swore

They'd have it for their very own.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,

Go ahead and cheat a friend.

Do it in the name of Heaven,

You can justify it in the end.

There won't be any trumpets blowing

Come the judgement day,

On the bloody morning after....

One tin soldier rides away.

So the people of the valley

Sent a message up the hill,

Asking for the buried treasure,

Tons of gold for which they'd kill.

Came an answer from the kingdom,

"With our brothers we will share

All the secrets of our mountain,

All the riches buried there."

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,

Go ahead and cheat a friend.

Do it in the name of Heaven,

You can justify it in the end.

There won't be any trumpets blowing

Come the judgement day,

On the bloody morning after....

One tin soldier rides away.

Now the valley cried with anger,

"Mount your horses! Draw your sword!"

And they killed the mountain-people,

So they won their just reward.

Now they stood beside the treasure,

On the mountain, dark and red.

Turned the stone and looked beneath it...

"Peace on Earth" was all it said.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,

Go ahead and cheat a friend.

Do it in the name of Heaven,

You can justify it in the end.

There won't be any trumpets blowing

Come the judgement day,

On the bloody morning after....

One tin soldier rides away.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,

Go ahead and cheat a friend.

Do it in the name of Heaven,

You can justify it in the end.

There won't be any trumpets blowing

Come the judgement day,

On the bloody morning after....

One tin soldier rides away.

(emphasis supplied)