Dion wins

[Argus]

IF there was a 1 member, 1 vote system, Ignatieff or especially Rae could have got it.

Dion was elected because he is less hated than the other candidates. It was the "anybody but iggy" combined with the "anybody but rae" movement.

Absolutely, very similar to another compromise candidate with nothing much to recommend him: Joe Clark.

[mikedavid00]

Dion won by default and not through any great acumen. We'll have to see whether he's got what it takes.

I just have to disagree with that.

Dion and Kenneday (part of the loyalist team) made a pre-aranged deal with each other that they would support one another to secure their votes.

Insiders were the only ones allowed to vote, not 300,000 party members which would have changed the outcome.

When 6 of 8 contenders are going to Rae for support, that should sent everyone a message of what was going on.

Dion won due to typicall, Liberal inside deals and corruption. It could have been Kennedy just the same.

(lets not forget how several months back Dion and Kennedy were spotted in a Toronto resturaunt having dinner together).

In typical Liberal style, a minorty spoke for a majority and special interest got it's way. That's fine for now, but not when there is a cou within the Liberal party possibly led by Stronach. Mark my words.

Last night proved that nothing has changed within the Liberal party.

[Argus]

IF there was a 1 member, 1 vote system, Ignatieff or especially Rae could have got it.

Dion was elected because he is less hated than the other candidates. It was the "anybody but iggy" combined with the "anybody but rae" movement.

I disagree. He was elected because Kennedy backed him and thus 40% of the vote. That is the only provable thing.

The other provable thing was that he was the first choice of perhaps 20% of Liberals. What makes you think the rest of us will be any more enthusiastic about him?

[uOttawaMan]

Ken Dryden should have walked around the convention in his goalie equipment. Guaranteed victory.

[stignasty]

I disagree. Look at the way the Liberal election was done. You'll see it goes a bit deeper than that. He wasn't democratically elected in.

By that standard, you must also believe that Canada is not a democracy because we allow elected officials to represent us in the House of Commons. Delegates at the convention are representative of a number of people in their ridings.

[mikedavid00]

IF there was a 1 member, 1 vote system, Ignatieff or especially Rae could have got it.

Dion was elected because he is less hated than the other candidates. It was the "anybody but iggy" combined with the "anybody but rae" movement.

I disagree. He was elected because Kennedy backed him and thus 40% of the vote. That is the only provable thing.

The other provable thing was that he was the first choice of perhaps 20% of Liberals. What makes you think the rest of us will be any more enthusiastic about him?

Actually 17%. Rae had 20% support. Backroom deals were done and Dion/Kennedy's future was secured. That is just the way Liberal's do things.

Rae really was the safest bet of all. But I predicted Dion would get it.

I'm actually very proud of myself

[mikedavid00]

I disagree. Look at the way the Liberal election was done. You'll see it goes a bit deeper than that. He wasn't democratically elected in.

By that standard, you must also believe that Canada is not a democracy because we allow elected officials to represent us in the House of Commons. Delegates at the convention are representative of a number of people in their ridings.

That's not the same thing. Other parties have taken a 1 member, 1 vote stance and it works.

And no I do not beleive that Canada is a democracy unless it has a 100% voter turn out and includes permenant residents and non citizens living here.

Australia is a democracy more than we are.

[August1991]

Rae really was the safest bet of all. But I predicted Dion would get it.

I'm actually very proud of myself

I'm surprised by the number of people who now claim that it was obvious that Dion was going to win and they even predicted it. That's good for Dion because it means that many people feel the Liberals chose the right person.

As to choosing a leader with 5000 delegates, keep in mind that many more party members chose the delegates. It is representative democracy. In addition, the 5000 are active militants and they have a direct stake in who is leader. Finally, it is good for these activists to get together and talk in person.

The Albertan PC party lost all these advantages.

[gc1765]

Dion won by default and not through any great acumen. We'll have to see whether he's got what it takes.

I just have to disagree with that.

Dion and Kenneday (part of the loyalist team) made a pre-aranged deal with each other that they would support one another to secure their votes.

Insiders were the only ones allowed to vote, not 300,000 party members which would have changed the outcome.

When 6 of 8 contenders are going to Rae for support, that should sent everyone a message of what was going on.

Dion won due to typicall, Liberal inside deals and corruption. It could have been Kennedy just the same.

(lets not forget how several months back Dion and Kennedy were spotted in a Toronto resturaunt having dinner together).

In typical Liberal style, a minorty spoke for a majority and special interest got it's way. That's fine for now, but not when there is a cou within the Liberal party possibly led by Stronach. Mark my words.

Last night proved that nothing has changed within the Liberal party.

Dion and Kennedy have acknowledged their understanding. I don't see any problem with it. Dion & Kennedy believe that they are more similar to eachother than to the other candidates. It's no surprise then that Kennedy would support Dion and vice-versa. Apparently, the delegates agreed. The delegates were not forced to vote for Dion once Kennedy dropped out, they were free to choose how they please. Show me where the "corruption" is.

[geoffrey]

Dion and Kennedy have acknowledged their understanding. I don't see any problem with it. Dion & Kennedy believe that they are more similar to eachother than to the other candidates. It's no surprise then that Kennedy would support Dion and vice-versa. Apparently, the delegates agreed. The delegates were not forced to vote for Dion once Kennedy dropped out, they were free to choose how they please. Show me where the "corruption" is.

There platforms aren't that similar. Kennedy supported Dion so that a francophone would be in charge this time, and that he can take his turn at the helm next convention, which will be sooner rather than later, Dion, unlike Kennedy, is not an electable leader.

If Kennedy went to Iggy or Rae, that means an Ontarian Anglophone twice in a row. Not going to work for Kennedy next time.

So he picks Dion, he's going to gain a top spot in the opposition shadow cabinet gaining Federal experience and it gives him time to gain profile and respect in Quebec. Kennedy is setting himself up for a landslide win 4 years from now after the Liberals realise the mistake they made with Dion.

[gc1765]

There platforms aren't that similar. Kennedy supported Dion so that a francophone would be in charge this time, and that he can take his turn at the helm next convention, which will be sooner rather than later, Dion, unlike Kennedy, is not an electable leader.

Their platforms may not be identical, but I believe that Kennedy's platform is closer to Dion's than to Rae or Ignatieff's. That's also what he said in an interview, that he has some differences with Dion but that the differences are much less than Rae or Iggy. More importantly, I think they are closer in personality. One of the reasons I like Kennedy is that he appears to have more integrity/honesty than Rae or Ignatieff, and to a lesser extent I see this same trait in Dion. They are also the (relatively) younger candidates without the baggage of Rae & Iggy. I still stand my by statement earlier that between Dion, Rae & Ignatieff, Dion is the most electable. If he can't win an election, neither would Rae or Ignatieff.

So he picks Dion, he's going to gain a top spot in the opposition shadow cabinet gaining Federal experience and it gives him time to gain profile and respect in Quebec. Kennedy is setting himself up for a landslide win 4 years from now after the Liberals realise the mistake they made with Dion.

I agree that Kennedy could easily win the next leadership. But I think there are other reasons (as I've stated above) to support Dion other than the fact that he is from Quebec. If you want to take the more cynical approach and believe that Kennedy made his choice based on personal gain, I think it would have more to do with the fact that he supported Dion because he knew Dion would support him if he were in third place. Kennedy and Dion both knew they wouldn't have a shot at the leadership unless they supported eachother. Then again, it wasn't really their choice to make anyhow. The delegates were not obligated to vote for Dion after Kennedy dropped out. If they did not agree that Dion was the best choice, they wouldn't have voted for him. Kennedy may have gained from Dion winning, but what did the delegates who actually voted for him gain?

[geoffrey]

Kennedy's delegates, by far the most loyal there, went right to Dion because they saw it like I did. Dion HAD to have won in order for Kennedy to be the next PM or Liberal leader.

[jdobbin]

Kennedy's delegates, by far the most loyal there, went right to Dion because they saw it like I did. Dion HAD to have won in order for Kennedy to be the next PM or Liberal leader.

Dion, from Kennedy's point of view, probably had the best position available for him in the party and probably afforded him the best future. Since Kennedy couldn't win this thing, he is in a great position. For some conservatives who looked on him favourably, this is not such a bad place to be. He might hold the keys on portfolios that will give him a chance to shine.

[Argus]

Rae really was the safest bet of all. But I predicted Dion would get it.

I'm actually very proud of myself

I'm surprised by the number of people who now claim that it was obvious that Dion was going to win and they even predicted it. That's good for Dion because it means that many people feel the Liberals chose the right person.

I just figured they'd probably choose the French guy.

[Melanie_]

Where does this "six of eight candidates backed Rae" come from? I heard him say it on TV, and I've seen it here a couple of times, but my math says that if Iggy didn't back him, Dion didn't back him, and Kennedy didn't back him, only five of eight candidates supported Rae by the third ballot, where he came in third. Not the groundswell of support he seems to want to claim.

[Saturn]

Oh, it's so much fun to listen to conservatives from Alberta complain about a liberal leader from Quebec

In fact I'm sure that both Harper and Layton are crying right about now. I think that Rae would have been a better choice but Dion will screw both of them just as bad. In fact, if he gets his English right, which I think he will be working on really hard, Dion will be just as bad as Rae would have been.

But he is from Quebec! So what? The xenophobes in Alberta might care, but nobody else does. It's not like Alberta is in the game anyway. Besides Albertans hate everyone, not just Quebeckers, so nothing new or interesting there.

Dion is not liked by the Quebec separatists! Big deal, he is going after the federalist vote in Quebec and he is going to get it. Harper is done there.

Dion is too green! Excellent, so is all of Canada except Alberta. Let's see... Alberta has 28 seats and the rest of Canada ten times as many.

He was in Chretien's cabinet! So? Chretien had a cabinet for 12 years, no? And you can keep on dreaming about connecting Dion to the sponsorship scandal - that scandal has been milked to death. Harper can squeeze it all he wants but there is not a drop left.

So what's going to happen? Dion will get federalist vote in Quebec, he will move the Liberals back to the center/center-left and will syphon away a massive number of votes from the NDP. The result will be that the BQ will drop down to under 40 seats, Jack will have a caucus of 5, and Harper will have the opportunity to scream all he wants from the opposition side of the House.

You see, this is what being a smug, arrogant Liberal means: You live in a fantasy world where the bills never have to be paid, the whole world loves you, and anyone (or even any province) that doesn't worship you is evil and irrelevent. It's the world of the spoiled "gimmie-gimmie" children without a thought in the world for anyone but themselves.

Nah, wrong! Alberta will vote in one way and one way only, which is what makes it irrelevant. It is the spolied, full of hate Albertans who have put themselves out of the game. Because you see, Harper knows you'll vote for him so he won't care and Dion knows you won't vote for him, so he won't care either. It's your own fault you all vote the same way like a herd of sheep - irrelevant!

[abcon99]

Dion is hated in most of franco Quebec, for his clarity act and his refusal to regognize fiscal imbalance. As for voting one way, its because the majority of us are Conservative, and want to get lots of seats, and join up with as many people in the rest of the country who want to crush Toronto and Montreal. You have all the seats in the liberal caucus from both those place already, we can say the same about those people being stupid. But I wonder who more Canadians like, people from Alberta, or from hated Toronto. Maybe you liberals don't know how people feel about Toronto and Montreal, (and Vancouver to a lesser degree) but we have every intention of showing you. And I don't count the welfare area of Maritimes. The good places there go to us. The defeatist go to liberals. And the smart maritimers move to Alberta or BC.

[Canadian Blue]

Nah, wrong! Alberta will vote in one way and one way only, which is what makes it irrelevant. It is the spolied, full of hate Albertans who have put themselves out of the game. Because you see, Harper knows you'll vote for him so he won't care and Dion knows you won't vote for him, so he won't care either. It's your own fault you all vote the same way like a herd of sheep - irrelevant!

Kind of like Toronto.......

Honestly, if the PM's from Alberta, the province of Alberta can't be that irrelevant. As for the sheep comment, if politician's piss Albertan's off they'll leave for another party, don't you remember the 93 election.

[abcon99]

Too Right! We are not sheep in Alberta. We have no problem slitting the throat of any party, even on the right, that screws with us.

[Saturn]

Nah, wrong! Alberta will vote in one way and one way only, which is what makes it irrelevant. It is the spolied, full of hate Albertans who have put themselves out of the game. Because you see, Harper knows you'll vote for him so he won't care and Dion knows you won't vote for him, so he won't care either. It's your own fault you all vote the same way like a herd of sheep - irrelevant!

Kind of like Toronto.......

Honestly, if the PM's from Alberta, the province of Alberta can't be that irrelevant. As for the sheep comment, if politician's piss Albertan's off they'll leave for another party, don't you remember the 93 election.

Except that's not going to happen in the next election. You are just going to vote for Harper and that's it. The PMs from Alberta are not irrelevant but they know they don't have to deliver anything to get re-elected. Kind of like the liberals from Toronto didn't do a thing for Toronto because they knew they would just get re-elected. Except they didn't get it quite right and lost a few seats to the NDP in the last election. And who are you going to vote for if Harper pisses you off? The NDP?

[fellowtraveller]

Dion won by default and not through any great acumen. We'll have to see whether he's got what it takes.

I just have to disagree with that.

Dion and Kenneday (part of the loyalist team) made a pre-aranged deal with each other that they would support one another to secure their votes.

Insiders were the only ones allowed to vote, not 300,000 party members which would have changed the outcome.

When 6 of 8 contenders are going to Rae for support, that should sent everyone a message of what was going on.

Dion won due to typicall, Liberal inside deals and corruption. It could have been Kennedy just the same.

(lets not forget how several months back Dion and Kennedy were spotted in a Toronto resturaunt having dinner together).

They have learned nothing, and now they will pay the price for the willful ignorance.

In typical Liberal style, a minorty spoke for a majority and special interest got it's way. That's fine for now, but not when there is a cou within the Liberal party possibly led by Stronach. Mark my words.

Last night proved that nothing has changed within the Liberal party.

There is no way anybody but Dion could have won. Kennedy has not been around long enough to have enough internal debt in the party to make him a serious contender. Ignatieff, Kennedy, Rae are all semi-wildcards, hard to control and that just will not do........ The Liberal Exec would have no interest in any electoral process that does not include them being the kingmaker.

[jdobbin]

Too Right! We are not sheep in Alberta. We have no problem slitting the throat of any party, even on the right, that screws with us.

When does Alberta vote anything different provincially? Everyone votes conservative in Alberta.

[abcon99]

The point is no party can count on our support, even if they are on the right. Look at Social Credit, the were in power, didn't keep up, and got turfed, never to return, and I bet they were shocked as hell, thinking they didn't have to worry. We may vote for Conservative parties, but that will not assure the Conservative Party of Canada that if they screw us, or don't deliver on a large portion of the promises, we will find someone who will. Liberals love the party, Conservatives love being Conservative and seeing things run how they want them, it is very different. I like Prime Minister Harper, but don't think for a second that I would have problems throwing him to the wolves if he screws Alberta on the federal stage. Or even if I thought he was incompetent, weak, or a problem from an idealogical point of view.

[Canadian Blue]

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/politics...bf71530&k=98234

OTTAWA - A new poll suggests the Liberals jumped to a four percentage point lead over the Tories during their leadership convention last week.

The Decima poll was conducted over four days during the Liberal leadership convention and only concluded one day after Stephane Dion was selected as leader.

It suggested the Liberals had the support of 35 per cent of respondents while the Tories were at 31 per cent, the NDP was at 12 per cent and the Green party was at 10 per cent.

After trailing the Tories for almost an entire year, the Liberals had been steadily catching up and even surpassing the governing party in recent surveys.

Decima CEO Bruce Anderson said the newest numbers were likely skewed upward for the Liberals because of the huge volume of publicity generated by their convention.

He said Dion’s capacity to hold onto that lead over time will depend on his success in stealing votes from the NDP and the Green party.

“It’s likely that this week’s numbers reflect some bump from the publicity of the Liberal convention,” Anderson said.

“Only time will tell the longer term impact of the Liberals’ choice.”

The Liberals had a 15 percentage point lead over the Conservatives in Ontario, and were in second place behind the Bloc in Quebec.

The Quebec numbers suggested the Bloc had 41 per cent support, followed by 26 per cent for the Liberals and 17 per cent for the Tories.

Decima’s results come on the heels of a Leger Marketing poll that also suggested the Liberals led the Conservatives in popular support after their convention.

But the Tories were taking the numbers in stride. Transport Minister Lawrence Cannon said it resulted from wall-to-wall convention coverage.

“Give me 48 hours of continuous exposure on television and I’ll probably be more popular than I am now,” said Cannon, the Tories’ Quebec lieutenant.

The Decima poll of 1,025 respondents was conducted from Nov. 30 to Dec. 3, and is considered accurate within 3.1 percentage points 19 times in 20.

It's interesting to note that the people who are losing support are the NDP. The Green Party is starting to get more support. But once again this poll doesn't indicate much since it was done during the convention, spring is still faraway.

PS: No this poll doesn't mean the Liberal's will be at 50-60% in the polls by Spring, since I know what some people might be thinking.

Too Right! We are not sheep in Alberta. We have no problem slitting the throat of any party, even on the right, that screws with us.

When does Alberta vote anything different provincially? Everyone votes conservative in Alberta.

Actaully Alberta did come close to turfing the PC's in the early 90's. The Liberal's were only a few percentage points away from taking power in the province. When a government is screwing up, when a government is acting for the most part responsible, then Albertan's will keep on re-electing them until they either become tired, or lost the trust of Albertan's.

[normanchateau]

Nah, wrong! Alberta will vote in one way and one way only, which is what makes it irrelevant. It is the spolied, full of hate Albertans who have put themselves out of the game. Because you see, Harper knows you'll vote for him so he won't care and Dion knows you won't vote for him, so he won't care either. It's your own fault you all vote the same way like a herd of sheep - irrelevant!

Kind of like Toronto.......

Actually Toronto has three NDP MPs. Vancouver has both Liberal and NDP MPs. But only Alberta votes sheep-like for one party. Is there any other province in Canada where all MPs come from one party?