Quebec: A Nation

[Figleaf]

My two cents.

There are several ways to look at this. Why is Harper doing this now? (It looks like a way to blindside the BQ.) What effect will this have on the Liberal leadership race? (It gets Ignatieff out of a pickle.) What will this do to the Tories' support? (Help in Quebec and elsewhere. I don't see the anti-Quebec Tory vote bleeding to the Liberals/NDP.)

What does the proposal mean exactly? Dunno. Didn't the House vote on a motion declaring Quebec a "distinct society" about 10 years ago? Well, the House can pass a motion declaring sliced bread the greatest invention ever. So what?

For myself, Quebec is obviously not a province like the others but I'll be damned if I know how or whether that fact should be included in the Constitution - assuming of course that Quebec remains a Canadian province.

Interesting analysis. A couple of comments:

I think the Liberal party benefits more overall than Iggy does. The party gets to make a positive symbolic gesture that Harper takes the blame for instead of making a negative practical gesture that the party (or worse, the new leader) would have to take the blame for. Iggy is still toast. If anything, this helps Dion.

You're right on about the meaning of the action, however. It's limited at best. It's not any kind of constitutional change. It sure helps muddy the waters with 'Quebecois' v. 'Quebec' though, don't you think?

BTW, Harper's speech was fantastic.

[Mad_Michael]

I haven't made up my mind yet upon this issue.

Either way, this doesn't look very well thought out by Harper. It has all the signs of something Harper thought up late at night, the day before he announced it. It could work out fine - or it could explode in his face.

First and foremost, it is obvious that Harper is playing a short game of strategy, trying to prevent the BQ from nailing his ass to the wall and risk losing critical parliamentary BQ support (since the BQ was tabling a very similar motion).

And it also appears to help Ignatieff in his bid for the Liberal leadership, and since Ignatieff was looking like he wasn't going to win next week, this could suggest that Harper really would prefer to face Ignatieff in an election rather than Rae (can't say I'd blame him, Ignatieff makes John Kerry look warm and friendly by comparison and is thus bloody unlikely ever to win a major election unless by default).

Last and not least, I can't see how this could possibly playout well for Harper. Without a doubt, the biggest opposition to any recognition of Quebec is Harper's own Western base, so this isn't likely to make them happy. And Quebecers aren't likely to swing over to the Conservatives in much numbers even at the best of times, so I can't see how this could translate into a vote-getter for Harper.

And there is no doubt that this is a godsend for the Liberal Party (by removing a contentious issue).

So what about poor Jean Charest? He's the one in the hotseat now. If the Quebecois demand that he push for Constitutional recognition of Harper's statement, then we are in for Meech Round III and all that implies, which is not likely to rebound in Harper's favour at all.

So I just can't see this as a very well thought out or strategic move by Harper. It is looking like Harper's attempt to dodge the BQ's bullet just might end up with Harper shooting himself in the face.

[scribblet]

Actually what PM Harper suggested was:

"That this House recognize that the Quebecois form a nation within a united Canada" he is referring to people, not a province.

These are very interesting times, I think Harper sure took the wind out of the sails of all the other

parties. However, I do think he is treading on dangerous ground, even though it was brilliant politics at the time. Heck, it pulled the fangs out of the Bloq's motion, upstaged the self-righteous NDP; made Iggy's remarks insignificant and made obvious the indecisiveness of the Liberal Party on the subject. Brilliant!

Even old Bill Graham made a great patriotic speech then our PM crossed the floor and shook his hand; a very gracious gesture and moving.

[blueblood]

Im fine with the government recognizing Quebec as a nation within Canada, the are different no ifs ands or buts about it. But what about Newfoundland, theyre different too but you don't hear them bitching about it (except for the fact that they're all unemployed). There is also a cultural divide between urban and rural Canada too which I believe is as bad a problem (urban people looking down their nose at us). I believe that the arrogance of Southern Ontario is a large part of the problem, it's their way or the highway and if your not with them your against them. They insist that we feed them while farmers go broke, they want our oil for cheap, all the tax dollars should be spent there, if you speak a different language your out of luck. Another example is gun control, in Southern Ontario it is a great idea they have high crime and are packed like sardines, but in the Country we don't have any serious crime (the odd grow op and drunk driving are the worst) so it appears that we are being punished for something we didn't do. Without the arrogance of Southern Ontario, there wouldn't be no BQ, no Reform party. can you blame southern ontario for being arrogant, I can't thats where most of the people therefore most of the seats are. can you blame quebec and the west for being pissed off, no they're getting screwed. can you blame someone for being pissed at ottawa for bending over backwards to quebec, no, just because a province is different does not mean its better. The quicker that those who look down their nose at others stop that, the quicker our national unity problem is solved, and if they can't do that then more power must be given to the provinces to handle their affairs.

[Michael Hardner]

The quicker that those who look down their nose at others stop that

I'm often amazed at how often people call Ontarians arrogant in a post where they also go off on how other provinces, ie. Nfld is all unemployed people.

Ontario isn't arrogant, they just don't care about places at the other end of the country that they don't ever hear about. They don't even care about Caledonia, and that's like two hours away.

[Edited to add: You're probably no different. Do you think about Burkina Faso a lot ?]

You're projecting your own ideas of region and identity on people who live in a completely different culture. Southern Ontario is just work and family and that's it. The province is just a place to live.

[Technocrat]

The quicker that those who look down their nose at others stop that

I'm often amazed at how often people call Ontarians arrogant in a post where they also go off on how other provinces, ie. Nfld is all unemployed people.

Ontario isn't arrogant, they just don't care about places at the other end of the country that they don't ever hear about. They don't even care about Caledonia, and that's like two hours away.

[Edited to add: You're probably no different. Do you think about Burkina Faso a lot ?]

You're projecting your own ideas of region and identity on people who live in a completely different culture. Southern Ontario is just work and family and that's it. The province is just a place to live.

Lol... geography lesson time... Caledonia is IN Ontario not two hours away..

WTF does Caledonia have to do with anything anyways... in fact Caledonia has nothing to do with ontario and has everything to do with the Federal Gov't who is sitting on their thumbs(and rotating i might add). The Onario Gov't has been asking the feds to get involved for quite some time...

Would people stop bashing areas of the country and making sweeping generalizations... its not accurate nor is it constructive.

Im opposed to this whole 'nation withing a nation' business because it is just too Newspeak. Remember we are all equal but some are more equal then others...

[Technocrat]

Im fine with the government recognizing Quebec as a nation within Canada, the are different no ifs ands or buts about it. But what about Newfoundland, theyre different too but you don't hear them bitching about it (except for the fact that they're all unemployed). There is also a cultural divide between urban and rural Canada too which I believe is as bad a problem (urban people looking down their nose at us). I believe that the arrogance of Southern Ontario is a large part of the problem, it's their way or the highway and if your not with them your against them. They insist that we feed them while farmers go broke, they want our oil for cheap, all the tax dollars should be spent there, if you speak a different language your out of luck. Another example is gun control, in Southern Ontario it is a great idea they have high crime and are packed like sardines, but in the Country we don't have any serious crime (the odd grow op and drunk driving are the worst) so it appears that we are being punished for something we didn't do. Without the arrogance of Southern Ontario, there wouldn't be no BQ, no Reform party. can you blame southern ontario for being arrogant, I can't thats where most of the people therefore most of the seats are. can you blame quebec and the west for being pissed off, no they're getting screwed. can you blame someone for being pissed at ottawa for bending over backwards to quebec, no, just because a province is different does not mean its better. The quicker that those who look down their nose at others stop that, the quicker our national unity problem is solved, and if they can't do that then more power must be given to the provinces to handle their affairs.

Im reminded of the South Park Movie where they sing Blame Canada exept in the post above you can pretty much sub-in blame Ontario.

Wow Blueblood... you truly are genius. You have ontario all figured out don't you.

Ontario Conspires to kill western farmers with big pointy sticks... ohh yeah we also collectively fart into the wind to gas out the pesky quebecers. Ohh yeah and we are responsible for the putting the Newfies on a big isolated island without hopes of any real meaningful economic development. It was us who gave PEI the potato... One day we will reintroduce the potatoe famine in that province too. We send all our stoners to BC to flood that province with incoherant hippy ramblings. well you get the idea.

I am JoeONTARIO and I... AM.... AN ....OPRESSOR!

/sarcasm

Yes blame ontario... blueblood your a real winner.

[jdobbin]

We should be focussing on strengthening a harmonious, co-operative and peaceful relationship with Quebec, keeping in mind the parallels with the relationship of Britain and Ireland. Personally I'm tired of pandering to Quebec, but if this puts the issue to rest, so be it, I can live with it.

Ignatieff said the reason he brought up the nation issue for Quebec was to prevent nationalists from setting the agenda.

He was called nuts.

Now, Quebec nationalists are setting the agenda.

[Michael Hardner]

Lol... geography lesson time... Caledonia is IN Ontario not two hours away.. rolleyes.gif

WTF does Caledonia have to do with anything anyways... in fact Caledonia has nothing to do with ontario and has everything to do with the Federal Gov't who is sitting on their thumbs(and rotating i might add). The Onario Gov't has been asking the feds to get involved for quite some time...

Would people stop bashing areas of the country and making sweeping generalizations... its not accurate nor is it constructive.

Im opposed to this whole 'nation withing a nation' business because it is just too Newspeak. Remember we are all equal but some are more equal then others...

Quite correct. I was thinking about Toronto. My point is that Caledonia is close to Toronto and people in Toronto don't pay attention to what is happening there, so why would they pay attention to far flung areas like Alberto or Sasquatchewan or Mannytoba ?

[Saturn]

Mr. Harper is not a Canadian. He is an Albertan-American. Harper has always hated Canada and he would be happy to for it to split apart. This was quite clear when he fired off the "firewall letter". It was clear in his speeches to American conservatives when he was telling them how wonderful the US is and how messed up Canada is. Now he is giving Quebec another opportunity to rally around the separatists, in addition to allowing Quebec to show up at UNESCO and other international organizations as a separate nation. The whole idea behind this is to increase tensions between Quebec and ROC. Eventually, this may lead to a successful referendum on separation in Quebec, which will spell out the end of Canada. Undoubtedly, if Quebec leaves, other provinces will follow.

Some say that it is ironic that a party whose aim is to destroy Canada is in the Canadian parliament. It is even more ironic and an anti-Canadian is the Canadian Prime Minister.

[Who's Doing What?]

So now that they are a nation can we consider their equalization payments an international loan?

[Mad_Michael]

Actually what PM Harper suggested was:

"That this House recognize that the Quebecois form a nation within a united Canada" he is referring to people, not a province.

True. But the nuances of Ottawa-speak are sometimes lost upon the masses and they make up their own minds about what the words might actually mean.

That is to say, the true meaning of Harper's statement is that which Quebec understands it to be, not necessarily as Harper states it here in English.

Words are ultimately symbolic and emotive. How the Quebecois will interpret this, I'm not sure, but if it backfires and they start pushing Jean Charest to ask for Harper's statement to be recognised in the constitution... things could turn out not so good for Mr. Harper.

[blueblood]

Im fine with the government recognizing Quebec as a nation within Canada, the are different no ifs ands or buts about it. But what about Newfoundland, theyre different too but you don't hear them bitching about it (except for the fact that they're all unemployed). There is also a cultural divide between urban and rural Canada too which I believe is as bad a problem (urban people looking down their nose at us). I believe that the arrogance of Southern Ontario is a large part of the problem, it's their way or the highway and if your not with them your against them. They insist that we feed them while farmers go broke, they want our oil for cheap, all the tax dollars should be spent there, if you speak a different language your out of luck. Another example is gun control, in Southern Ontario it is a great idea they have high crime and are packed like sardines, but in the Country we don't have any serious crime (the odd grow op and drunk driving are the worst) so it appears that we are being punished for something we didn't do. Without the arrogance of Southern Ontario, there wouldn't be no BQ, no Reform party. can you blame southern ontario for being arrogant, I can't thats where most of the people therefore most of the seats are. can you blame quebec and the west for being pissed off, no they're getting screwed. can you blame someone for being pissed at ottawa for bending over backwards to quebec, no, just because a province is different does not mean its better. The quicker that those who look down their nose at others stop that, the quicker our national unity problem is solved, and if they can't do that then more power must be given to the provinces to handle their affairs.

Im reminded of the South Park Movie where they sing Blame Canada exept in the post above you can pretty much sub-in blame Ontario.

Wow Blueblood... you truly are genius. You have ontario all figured out don't you.

Ontario Conspires to kill western farmers with big pointy sticks... ohh yeah we also collectively fart into the wind to gas out the pesky quebecers. Ohh yeah and we are responsible for the putting the Newfies on a big isolated island without hopes of any real meaningful economic development. It was us who gave PEI the potato... One day we will reintroduce the potatoe famine in that province too. We send all our stoners to BC to flood that province with incoherant hippy ramblings. well you get the idea.

I am JoeONTARIO and I... AM.... AN ....OPRESSOR!

/sarcasm

Yes blame ontario... blueblood your a real winner.

I would like to thank you for proving my point, I'm blaming arrogance and from your response you seem to have a bit of it, for shame.

[Saturn]

I believe that the arrogance of Southern Ontario is a large part of the problem, it's their way or the highway and if your not with them your against them... Without the arrogance of Southern Ontario, there wouldn't be no BQ, no Reform party. can you blame southern ontario for being arrogant, I can't thats where most of the people therefore most of the seats are.

This shows how insecure some people in some provinces are. Alberta is screaming on one side, Quebec on another, NFLD on third, everyone complaining about not getting enough attention like little kids. The only province where nobody complains about ROC is Ontario. Because Ontarians are secure enough to not whine about not getting enough attention. Nobody in Ontario is looking down on you, but you think they are because they don't talk about you all the time. Well, Ontario provides the big chuck of equalization payments to other provinces. We give money to Atlantic Canada, to Quebec, etc. and what we get in return is hate because we don't give enough. Ontarians are arrogant, Ontarians are this and that. Well, that's very kind of you. Now I feel that we should cut off all financial support to ROC and leave you alone with your hate.

[blueblood]

The quicker that those who look down their nose at others stop that

I'm often amazed at how often people call Ontarians arrogant in a post where they also go off on how other provinces, ie. Nfld is all unemployed people.

Ontario isn't arrogant, they just don't care about places at the other end of the country that they don't ever hear about. They don't even care about Caledonia, and that's like two hours away.

[Edited to add: You're probably no different. Do you think about Burkina Faso a lot ?]

You're projecting your own ideas of region and identity on people who live in a completely different culture. Southern Ontario is just work and family and that's it. The province is just a place to live.

Every person i've talked to from Ontario has come off arrogant, and being as NFLD has a sky high unemployment rate, I'm not being mean, I'm making an observation.

It's the fact that they just don't care about other places at the end of this country that's the problem, that's what is behind federal policy for the last 30 years, and that's why there is a unity problem -> too much power concentrated on a tiny area of Canada which results in policies that benefit it and at times screw the rest over. It's ridiculous for MPs from Toronto to pass laws concerning agriculture or long guns, both of which Toronto doesn't have. I'm not saying they should pander to us or to Quebec, just accept that we are in fact different and to take that into account when passing laws and making FEDERAL policy (not ontario policy)

[blueblood]

I believe that the arrogance of Southern Ontario is a large part of the problem, it's their way or the highway and if your not with them your against them... Without the arrogance of Southern Ontario, there wouldn't be no BQ, no Reform party. can you blame southern ontario for being arrogant, I can't thats where most of the people therefore most of the seats are.

This shows how insecure some people in some provinces are. Alberta is screaming on one side, Quebec on another, NFLD on third, everyone complaining about not getting enough attention like little kids. The only province where nobody complains about ROC is Ontario. Because Ontarians are secure enough to not whine about not getting enough attention. Nobody in Ontario is looking down on you, but you think they are because they don't talk about you all the time. Well, Ontario provides the big chuck of equalization payments to other provinces. We give money to Atlantic Canada, to Quebec, etc. and what we get in return is hate because we don't give enough. Ontarians are arrogant, Ontarians are this and that. Well, that's very kind of you. Now I feel that we should cut off all financial support to ROC and leave you alone with your hate.

So Ontario MP's calling Prairie provinces Redneck, how their values are Canadian values and the values that people in the majority of the prairie provinces aren't canadian values isn't arrogant? When western Canada is Tory Blue, Ontario is Red, and Quebec is teal on election night shows that there is a problem.

The hate comes from some guy from the "Golden Horseshoe" having a policy that only works in that area and the rest gets the shaft, since Canada is this divided, Ottawa has two options, relinquish power to provinces or take into account other areas when making FEDERAL policy.

I'd say go for it cut all financial support to ROC, you can leave us with our hate, oil, grain, hydro, lumber, etc.

[Mad_Michael]

The hate comes from some guy from the "Golden Horseshoe" having a policy that only works in that area and the rest gets the shaft, since Canada is this divided, Ottawa has two options, relinquish power to provinces or take into account other areas when making FEDERAL policy.

Who's "some guy from the "Golden Horseshoe" you are talking about?

And when it comes to Federal policy and Federal spending, Ontario has been paying out free money to the rest of Canada consistently and constantly going back to WW1. Of all Federal policy programs, I see Quebec and the Atlantic Provinces as the primary 'target' of a majority of Federal spending and policy programs going back to the 1960's. Ontario constantly pays billions of $$ for everyone else's schools and hospitals. Alberta has thankfully joined this most exclusive club in Canada - BC dropped out of the club about twenty-five years ago and has never looked back.

Sure Toronto has economic power, but it is the power of the marketplace. Ottawa panders to politics and Toronto has always been politically weak in Ottawa. Toronto's mass transit system is the least subsidised public transit service in North America! And I don't recall seeing any Federal financed construction of ANYTHING in the Golden Horseshoe in the last twenty years...

[blueblood]

The hate comes from some guy from the "Golden Horseshoe" having a policy that only works in that area and the rest gets the shaft, since Canada is this divided, Ottawa has two options, relinquish power to provinces or take into account other areas when making FEDERAL policy.

Who's "some guy from the "Golden Horseshoe" you are talking about?

And when it comes to Federal policy and Federal spending, Ontario has been paying out free money to the rest of Canada consistently and constantly going back to WW1. Of all Federal policy programs, I see Quebec and the Atlantic Provinces as the primary 'target' of a majority of Federal spending and policy programs going back to the 1960's. Ontario constantly pays billions of $$ for everyone else's schools and hospitals. Alberta has thankfully joined this most exclusive club in Canada - BC dropped out of the club about twenty-five years ago and has never looked back.

Sure Toronto has economic power, but it is the power of the marketplace. Ottawa panders to politics and Toronto has always been politically weak in Ottawa. Toronto's mass transit system is the least subsidised public transit service in North America! And I don't recall seeing any Federal financed construction of ANYTHING in the Golden Horseshoe in the last twenty years...

Theres more to policy than spending, I'm talking about laws (Long gun registry, Plant breeders rights, etc.)and the general "direction" of the government, (the CWB for example, why are Ontarians and Quebecers exempt from it when the prairie provinces have to be in it). It's one of those things you have to live out here to experience for yourself. Ontario also receives a lot of our natural resources, has a manufacturing base dating for over 100 years, all from Fed. policy, why won't the feds spread it out? It won't cost much to do it. Truly the gov't should cut off the "welfare" spending and invest in industry + crown corporations all over Canada and let the provinces get back on track. Last time I checked the Prairie provinces are doing pretty well in the books compared to Ontario and Quebec. Accept that the ROC is different than the toronto area and should be left to our own devices and we'll be better off.

[Mad_Michael]

Theres more to policy than spending, I'm talking about laws (Long gun registry, Plant breeders rights, etc.)and the general "direction" of the government, (the CWB for example, why are Ontarians and Quebecers exempt from it when the prairie provinces have to be in it). It's one of those things you have to live out here to experience for yourself. Ontario also receives a lot of our natural resources, has a manufacturing base dating for over 100 years, all from Fed. policy, why won't the feds spread it out? It won't cost much to do it. Truly the gov't should cut off the "welfare" spending and invest in industry + crown corporations all over Canada and let the provinces get back on track. Last time I checked the Prairie provinces are doing pretty well in the books compared to Ontario and Quebec. Accept that the ROC is different than the toronto area and should be left to our own devices and we'll be better off.

1. Hey, check out the data in that there gun registry... more guns in Ontario than anywhere else...

2. General direction of Government? You've got to be kidding.... lets see... present Prime Minister is from Alberta, last three from Quebec (not counting blips like Graham or Campbell), and before that it was another Quebecer and another Albertan. Toronto rules eh? Give me a break.

3. Wheat board? You're talking about less than 1% of our fucking GDP! Exporting automobiles is where the money and the jobs are, not farming.

4. The natural resources Ontario imports from other provinces is private sector activity. Just like the natural resources Ontario exports to other provinces.

5. The manufacturing base of Ontario is entirely 'private sector' (and 'British-American' in origin. It is private capital. You can't just order it around. And the Federal Government has very little control over this. Ontario has a strong manufacturing economy because a) we work hard for it and we are very well located to service the US market. Ontario is entirely dependent upon the US market for export of manufacturing and services (primarily, automobiles and financial services).

6. The Federal government has no power to compel private companies to move to other locations. Private corporations may situate themselves where they see fit. It is call a 'free market'. Our government is not a socialist planning state.

7. Toronto is a net contributor of about $10-12 billion a year to the 'Rest of Canada' - of which every Province, save Ontario & Alberta, is presently a net recipient of net Federal taxes and spending.

8. The Federal Government screws Toronto more often than any other region in Canada in the bias of their policies and programs. Fair enough, Toronto is rich and can afford to help pay for our provincial cousins. Do you hear me bitching? I pay those taxes.

[geoffrey]

This shows how insecure some people in some provinces are. Alberta is screaming on one side, Quebec on another, NFLD on third, everyone complaining about not getting enough attention like little kids. The only province where nobody complains about ROC is Ontario. Because Ontarians are secure enough to not whine about not getting enough attention. Nobody in Ontario is looking down on you, but you think they are because they don't talk about you all the time. Well, Ontario provides the big chuck of equalization payments to other provinces. We give money to Atlantic Canada, to Quebec, etc. and what we get in return is hate because we don't give enough. Ontarians are arrogant, Ontarians are this and that. Well, that's very kind of you. Now I feel that we should cut off all financial support to ROC and leave you alone with your hate.

Your going to need us to support your economy very shortly. We're already preventing widespread social assistance demand in your province by providing jobs to those fleeing your failing economy.

1. Hey, check out the data in that there gun registry... more guns in Ontario than anywhere else...

Not per capita. When you have 3x the population, you expect to have at least as many guns as the much smaller Alberta.

2. General direction of Government? You've got to be kidding.... lets see... present Prime Minister is from Alberta, last three from Quebec (not counting blips like Graham or Campbell), and before that it was another Quebecer and another Albertan. Toronto rules eh? Give me a break.

Martin wasn't from Quebec.... he was born in Windsor, raised between there and Ottawa and went to university at St. Michael's and the U of T. At least get your facts right.

3. Wheat board? You're talking about less than 1% of our fucking GDP! Exporting automobiles is where the money and the jobs are, not farming.

Your kidding right? Do you know how many jobs Ontario lost last month... and the month before. Exporting oil is where the money and jobs are. Ontario is a fading star. It's industry was artifically sustained for too long, and now it's in collapse.

5. The manufacturing base of Ontario is entirely 'private sector' (and 'British-American' in origin. It is private capital. You can't just order it around. And the Federal Government has very little control over this. Ontario has a strong manufacturing economy because a) we work hard for it and we are very well located to service the US market. Ontario is entirely dependent upon the US market for export of manufacturing and services (primarily, automobiles and financial services).

You actually have a very weak economy right now.

6. The Federal government has no power to compel private companies to move to other locations. Private corporations may situate themselves where they see fit. It is call a 'free market'. Our government is not a socialist planning state.

That's why head office migration is moving to the much more economically competitive Alberta.

7. Toronto is a net contributor of about $10-12 billion a year to the 'Rest of Canada' - of which every Province, save Ontario & Alberta, is presently a net recipient of net Federal taxes and spending.

Correct. Let's cut them off and help ourselves out. Alberta and Ontario could be a good team, if they accepted their difference and lost their selfish pride.

8. The Federal Government screws Toronto more often than any other region in Canada in the bias of their policies and programs. Fair enough, Toronto is rich and can afford to help pay for our provincial cousins. Do you hear me bitching? I pay those taxes.

Wrong. Per capita Albertans pay so much more than Ontarians it's not even funny. 4 times as much.

[Technocrat]

This shows how insecure some people in some provinces are. Alberta is screaming on one side, Quebec on another, NFLD on third, everyone complaining about not getting enough attention like little kids. The only province where nobody complains about ROC is Ontario. Because Ontarians are secure enough to not whine about not getting enough attention. Nobody in Ontario is looking down on you, but you think they are because they don't talk about you all the time. Well, Ontario provides the big chuck of equalization payments to other provinces. We give money to Atlantic Canada, to Quebec, etc. and what we get in return is hate because we don't give enough. Ontarians are arrogant, Ontarians are this and that. Well, that's very kind of you. Now I feel that we should cut off all financial support to ROC and leave you alone with your hate.

Your going to need us to support your economy very shortly. We're already preventing widespread social assistance demand in your province by providing jobs to those fleeing your failing economy.

1. Hey, check out the data in that there gun registry... more guns in Ontario than anywhere else...

Not per capita. When you have 3x the population, you expect to have at least as many guns as the much smaller Alberta.

2. General direction of Government? You've got to be kidding.... lets see... present Prime Minister is from Alberta, last three from Quebec (not counting blips like Graham or Campbell), and before that it was another Quebecer and another Albertan. Toronto rules eh? Give me a break.

Martin wasn't from Quebec.... he was born in Windsor, raised between there and Ottawa and went to university at St. Michael's and the U of T. At least get your facts right.

3. Wheat board? You're talking about less than 1% of our fucking GDP! Exporting automobiles is where the money and the jobs are, not farming.

Your kidding right? Do you know how many jobs Ontario lost last month... and the month before. Exporting oil is where the money and jobs are. Ontario is a fading star. It's industry was artifically sustained for too long, and now it's in collapse.

5. The manufacturing base of Ontario is entirely 'private sector' (and 'British-American' in origin. It is private capital. You can't just order it around. And the Federal Government has very little control over this. Ontario has a strong manufacturing economy because a) we work hard for it and we are very well located to service the US market. Ontario is entirely dependent upon the US market for export of manufacturing and services (primarily, automobiles and financial services).

You actually have a very weak economy right now.

6. The Federal government has no power to compel private companies to move to other locations. Private corporations may situate themselves where they see fit. It is call a 'free market'. Our government is not a socialist planning state.

That's why head office migration is moving to the much more economically competitive Alberta.

7. Toronto is a net contributor of about $10-12 billion a year to the 'Rest of Canada' - of which every Province, save Ontario & Alberta, is presently a net recipient of net Federal taxes and spending.

Correct. Let's cut them off and help ourselves out. Alberta and Ontario could be a good team, if they accepted their difference and lost their selfish pride.

8. The Federal Government screws Toronto more often than any other region in Canada in the bias of their policies and programs. Fair enough, Toronto is rich and can afford to help pay for our provincial cousins. Do you hear me bitching? I pay those taxes.

Wrong. Per capita Albertans pay so much more than Ontarians it's not even funny. 4 times as much.

Exactly what difference are you talking about geoffery?... set aside what exactly? What the hell does alberta really want anyways...? a freakin cookie? U bitch like alberta is the only province shelling out more then its getting back...

ohh yeah the manufacturing sectore is really not all that bad. Toyota is opening up a new car plant in the K.W Alot of the manufacturing jobs that are being lost are from the Big 3 North American Automakers... not really much of a suprise but thats hardly the fault of the workers or the Ontario Gov't. One thing that is affecting the ontario manufacturing sector has been the noticable lack of investment in the overall capacity to generate electricity. We have hit the point where electricity prices are increasing which is a major cost in the manufacturing of goods. THe last few premiers here Harris, Eves and the King Wanker McGuinty have just let the system go.

Lets face it a my cat could run Albertas economy right now... not to much skill in just doling out the cash.

[geoffrey]

Lets face it a my cat could run Albertas economy right now... not to much skill in just doling out the cash.

I disagree yet again. There are two other provinces in Canada with plenty of oil, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland. Newfoundland has a much much much better market than we do as well.

Yet they are poor, and we are not. What's the diff?

[jdobbin]

I disagree yet again. There are two other provinces in Canada with plenty of oil, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland. Newfoundland has a much much much better market than we do as well.

Yet they are poor, and we are not. What's the diff?

Newfoundland's oil industry is much younger than Alberta's and, unlike Alberta's, is based at sea. Land based oil extends benefits to citizens more readily that sea-based. Newfoundland is starting to benefit from its oil industry they will get richer as a result.

Saskatchewan's oil industry will vault Saskatchewan to "have" province by the next evaluation. The province is doing much better but having said that, their economy is not a diverse as Alberta's. I don't think that means they are dirt poor though.

[August1991]

And I don't recall seeing any Federal financed construction of ANYTHING in the Golden Horseshoe in the last twenty years...

Who paid for Canada's nuclear energy industry? Which province relies on nuclear energy?

Ontario has over 100 seats in the House and it is basically impossible to form a government without MPs from Ontario. If Canada ever dissolved into the United States, Alberta would still be rich with oil and rich with the beauty of the Rockies. Quebec would still be distinct on the continent with arguably the most beautiful capital. Ontario would become Michigan.

In short, Ontario has benefitted grandly from Confederation. It has no reason to complain.

----

The more I think about Harper's motion recognizing Quebecers as a nation within Canada, the more impressed I am.

This was not a spur of the moment decision. The motion comes from Harper's often stated views of Canada. It is also a wonderful recognition from a Protestant English-Canadian of French-Canadian society. The Tories hung Louis Riel and instituted conscription during WWI. Harper is cementing the first moves made by Mulroney. There is an old belief in Quebec that anglophone prime ministers are sometimes better (more conciliatory) than francophone prime ministers.

At the same time, Harper has drawn some clear lines. He made it abundantly clear that Quebec is part of Canada and he will fight this strongly. Furthermore, he pointed out that all Canadians are concerned about Quebec's status.

The motion splits the PQ and plays them at their own game of symbolism. Harper has co-opted the "national" terminology. The PQ tried to use it as code for "sovereign". Harper has just changed its meaning to "part of Canada".

For Harper, there is no downside to this motion and he alone gets this benefit. Harper will get the credit in Quebec for doing this, and he'll get credit in English Canada for being the peacemaker. Harper's credentials of being the anglo tough guy are still intact though. Harper's like Menachem Begin negotiating with Arafat.

Andrew Coyne and others seem to believe that Harper has given away something in the long run. What exactly? This is not a constitutional amendment. But if it leads to one, and the right wording is found to get it passed, and Quebec is not perceived to get more than others while being recognized for its obvious difference, where is the harm?

About 10% of the population is left-handed. They're different. It's absurd to say everyone's the same when they're obviously not. A political system must accept people the way they are. We shouldn't make people fit a theoretical political scheme. I sometimes think that people forget why Canada is a federal state.

Harper's choice of "Quebecois" rather than "Quebec" has drawn attention. (I wonder whether Harper thought of using the term "Canadiens-français"? Or, "le peuple québécois".) I see it this way: Harper chose to put the emphasis on individuals rather than the Quebec government. Harper is stating that in his opinion, it is Quebecers who are distinct - not the Quebec government. (IMV, that's a good point and it also scores political points since it's the kind of subtlety that makes péquistes go crazy.)

Yvon Deschamps used to joke that Quebecers want a sovereign and independent Quebec within a strong and united Canada. Is Harper's motion a Deschamps joke? No. The motion is the effort, accented French and all, of a white-bread anglo protestant from Calgary to make it possible for a Quebecer to be part of Canada.

Let's see how this one unfolds.

[jdobbin]

The more I think about Harper's motion recognizing Quebecers as a nation within Canada, the more impressed I am.

You must be more easily impressed than many people.

Western radio talk show hosts fielded call furious with the prime minister for giving away the farm to Quebec.