Harper Declare's Canada is Gutsier

[jdobbin]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/061119/...nal/apec_harper

Is Canada's stand gutsier than the Liberal stand? Did it achieve a different end result?

[gerryhatrick]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/061119/...nal/apec_harper

Is Canada's stand gutsier than the Liberal stand? Did it achieve a different end result?

Yeah we're gutsier!!!

Everybody better shutup or we'll kick your a$$!

I guess this means we'll be inspecting North Korea ships?

[Mimas]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/061119/...nal/apec_harper

Is Canada's stand gutsier than the Liberal stand? Did it achieve a different end result?

If gutsier means a lot of posturing for the audience at home then Harper is gutsier than the Liberals.

[sharkman]

The Liberal Grand Strategy of sticking your finger in Uncle Sam's eye had no benefit to Canadians. Too soon to tell if Harper's efforts will have success.

[Johnny Utah]

The Liberal Grand Strategy of sticking your finger in Uncle Sam's eye had no benefit to Canadians. Too soon to tell if Harper's efforts will have success.

Harper's efforts do help Canada on the World stage..

[jdobbin]

The Liberal Grand Strategy of sticking your finger in Uncle Sam's eye had no benefit to Canadians. Too soon to tell if Harper's efforts will have success.

A different policy on Iraq did benefit Canadians though. Or are you saying we should be there? A lot of right wing conservatives did. Not so much anymore though.

[gerryhatrick]

From the article:

Harper pointed to a brief, informal meeting he had with Chinese President Hu Jintao at a reception the night before as evidence of his forcefulness. The two leaders were among 21 gathered in Vietnam for the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) summit.

He said he raised the case of a Chinese-Canadian, Huseyin Celil, imprisoned by Beijing without access to consular assistance. A few days earlier, he had pressed the Vietnamese prime minister on human rights, including press and religious freedoms.

"We've had very frank discussions with a wide range of leaders, including although it was not a very long discussion, a very frank discussion with President Hu of China - a distinct impression, if I may say that, that the Chinese aren't used to that from a Canadian government, but I can't speak for them," Harper said at the end of the APEC gathering.

To be frank (like tough guy Harper) this is about the stupidest example of foreign policy dealings I've every seen.

He comes away from a meeting with the Chinese Prez and starts bragging about how he is Mr. forceful and "if I may say" the Chinese were essentially taken aback by his toughness, although he "can't speak for them".

I hope he thinks that's earning him points at home, because it's not going to get our citizen prisoner Huseyin Celil released. His family must be a little upset to be reading crap like this. Unless Harper struck a deal with the Chinese which includes letting him mouth-off at their expense, that deal is done.

Harper's staff also blocked Canadian journalists from attending all but the first of Harper's public activities, even while foreign media were present or invited.

Oh yeah, real tough guy! Can't even face the media.

[sharkman]

The Liberal Grand Strategy of sticking your finger in Uncle Sam's eye had no benefit to Canadians. Too soon to tell if Harper's efforts will have success.

A different policy on Iraq did benefit Canadians though. Or are you saying we should be there? A lot of right wing conservatives did. Not so much anymore though.

No, my remarks do not refer to Iraq. Chretien hated the U.S. and it showed. Letting his underlings mouth off about Americans, jerking Bush around with changing policies. It's no surprise that Chretien wasn't invited south much, if at all.

What benefit did you personally receive by having our troops not go to Iraq?

[kimmy]

Being gutsier than the Liberals isn't really much to brag about.

Whether it was soft-pedalling human rights in discussions with China, or the spineless handling of the Zahra Kazemi affair, or basing Canada's positions on south-east Asian conflicts on how many votes it would generate in Toronto-area ridings, I don't really think the Liberals distinguished themselves in diplomacy during the Chretien and Martin eras.

Let's recap:

this thread introduced the discussion of Harper's relations with China.

Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada co-CEO Paul Evans called Harper's approach to Chinese relations radically different from his predecessors and unlike anything attempted by other Western governments.

''This is a break, a decisive break, with the way the relationship has been managed for the last 36 years under six other prime ministers,'' Evans said. ''It's a decisive break in the framing of the relationship and in the tone and the vocabulary.''

It's clear that some of Harper's adversaries here on MLW saw it as an opportunity to attack Harper for being reckless. But suddenly it's funny to suggest that Harper has taken a "gutsier" stand?

Whether Harper's approach will yield results for Hussein Celil remains to be seen. However, I don't fault Harper at all for attempting to address this issue with President Hu.

-k

[kimmy]

He comes away from a meeting with the Chinese Prez and starts bragging about how he is Mr. forceful and "if I may say" the Chinese were essentially taken aback by his toughness, although he "can't speak for them".

Actually, he wasn't bragging about being a tough-guy with the Chinese.

What he said was that the Chinese were unaccustomed to a Canadian leader being frank with them.

-k

[jdobbin]

No, my remarks do not refer to Iraq. Chretien hated the U.S. and it showed. Letting his underlings mouth off about Americans, jerking Bush around with changing policies. It's no surprise that Chretien wasn't invited south much, if at all.

What benefit did you personally receive by having our troops not go to Iraq?

I didn't say I benefited personally. I said Canada benefited because the war was ill conceived, the peace plan poorly executed and the prospect for getting out ill defined. We benefited from not being drawn into something that seemed hasty and overly optimistic.

Bush had very little interest in Canada during the campaign and in those first few months of office. Even before Chretien had emerged on his radar screen Bush had said that Mexico was the United State's most important relationship.

[jdobbin]

Whether Harper's approach will yield results for Hussein Celil remains to be seen. However, I don't fault Harper at all for attempting to address this issue with President Hu.

Harper was dealing coolly with the Chinese even Hussein Celil was taken by the Chinese. What was the rationale then? Several meetings were cancelled with no explanation. If it was about human rights issues, why didn't they state that? The government gave no reason for their lack of official meetings.

[August1991]

Whether it was soft-pedalling human rights in discussions with China, or the spineless handling of the Zahra Kazemi affair, or basing Canada's positions on south-east Asian conflicts on how many votes it would generate in Toronto-area ridings, I don't really think the Liberals distinguished themselves in diplomacy during the Chretien and Martin eras.

That's not true. Jean Chretien intervened personally and had Ahmed Khadr released from Pakistan before trial.

In this case, Harper is merely asking the Chinese government that a Canadian consular official have access to a Canadian citizen held in China.

----

All the Liberal-type foreign affairs experts (in Canada, that's about all we've got) and Michael Ignatieff are saying that the best way to deal with the Chinese, particularly on hiuman rights questions, is quietly in the background. Well, why should we do things the Chinese way? Harper has chosen to do this differently.

Just for a hypothetical. If the US held a Canadian citizen and didn't allow consular access, what would the CBC say? Would it tell everyone to keep mum on the issue?

[jdobbin]

Actually, he wasn't bragging about being a tough-guy with the Chinese.

What he said was that the Chinese were unaccustomed to a Canadian leader being frank with them.

Really? What did he say to them that was different? He hasn't been frank with the public about that.

[jdobbin]

Just for a hypothetical. If the US held a Canadian citizen and didn't allow consular access, what would the CBC say? Would it tell everyone to keep mum on the issue?

Canadians have been held, charged and convicted without Consular notification. The government has done things quietly rather than make a fuss about it.

The CBC and other media are under no obligation to be quiet though.

[jdobbin]

Harper has chosen to do this differently.

Harper was choosing to cancel meetings long before there was a Canadian being held.

[Mimas]

The Liberal Grand Strategy of sticking your finger in Uncle Sam's eye had no benefit to Canadians. Too soon to tell if Harper's efforts will have success.

Harper's efforts do help Canada on the World stage..

I don't think this will make up for trashing Canada's reputation on the environmental front.

[Mimas]

Harper has chosen to do this differently.

Harper was choosing to cancel meetings long before there was a Canadian being held.

Yes, Harper chose to cancel his trip to Finland to meet with EU leaders because he was afraid of critisism on Kyoto. How many Canadians are being held in Europe?

[kimmy]

Harper was dealing coolly with the Chinese even Hussein Celil was taken by the Chinese. What was the rationale then? Several meetings were cancelled with no explanation. If it was about human rights issues, why didn't they state that? The government gave no reason for their lack of official meetings.

Harper was only Prime Minister for a month by the time Celil was detained. Did he really mess up relations with the Chinese that much during that span?

-k

[August1991]

Just for a hypothetical. If the US held a Canadian citizen and didn't allow consular access, what would the CBC say? Would it tell everyone to keep mum on the issue?

Canadians have been held, charged and convicted without Consular notification. The government has done things quietly rather than make a fuss about it.

The CBC and other media are under no obligation to be quiet though.

Dobbin, that's disingenuous.

If someone held abroad doesn't identify himself as Canadian, how can the local authorities notify the Canadian government?

In any case, there are far more detentions in the US than in China. I was contrasting the noisy Liberal/CBC attitude to the US with its current criticsm of Harper.

[jdobbin]

Dobbin, that's disingenuous.

If someone held abroad doesn't identify himself as Canadian, how can the local authorities notify the Canadian government?

In any case, there are far more detentions in the US than in China. I was contrasting the noisy Liberal/CBC attitude to the US with its current criticsm of Harper.

If I recall, the Canadian convicted in Texas did reveal when arrested that he was Canadian.

As far as the Canadian being held in China now, Harper had been acting coolly towards the Chinese even before that happened. There was no explanation then for what was going on.

[jdobbin]

Harper was only Prime Minister for a month by the time Celil was detained. Did he really mess up relations with the Chinese that much during that span?

There were three high level meetings scheduled prior to the arrest. All were cancelled by Canada.

Canada was not even made aware of its citizen being held for some time when additional meetings were cancelled. By Canada once again.

Only when we eventually found out our citizen was being held and denied access may there have been grounds for a less than business as usual stance.

There was no explanation for Canada's stance. We didn't seem to have a coherent China policy.

[Mimas]

Just for a hypothetical. If the US held a Canadian citizen and didn't allow consular access, what would the CBC say? Would it tell everyone to keep mum on the issue?

Canadians have been held, charged and convicted without Consular notification. The government has done things quietly rather than make a fuss about it.

The CBC and other media are under no obligation to be quiet though.

Dobbin, that's disingenuous.

If someone held abroad doesn't identify himself as Canadian, how can the local authorities notify the Canadian government?

In any case, there are far more detentions in the US than in China. I was contrasting the noisy Liberal/CBC attitude to the US with its current criticsm of Harper.

Are you forgetting Mr. Arar? What was the Conservative response to his detention and having him shipped by the US to Syria to be tortured? Diane Ablonczy screaming at the Libs in Parliament about doing nothing to catch Canadian terrorists and having our American friends deal with our terrorists. She never regretted or appologized for calling an innocent man a terrorist or for assuming that a Canadian detained abroad is a terrorist without any evidence to that effect. As far as I am concerned, we should defend Canadians detained abroad, not assume that they are guilty and accuse them of being terrorist for no reason. But the Conservative spin on the issue is if you are detained in China you are innocent and if you are detained in the US you are a terrorist. Have you seen any reports in the media about this Conservative assumption?

[Fortunata]

...Chretien hated the U.S. and it showed. Letting his underlings mouth off about Americans, jerking Bush around with changing policies. It's no surprise that Chretien wasn't invited south much, if at all.

What benefit did you personally receive by having our troops not go to Iraq?

Chretien didn't hate the US. Relations between the two countries only cooled and became what you guys refer to as "hate" after Bush was elected. Chretien and Clinton interacted well and all was as friendly as could be between neighbours. This is something the bashers forget or don't care to admit.

As far as Harper's in-your-face diplomacy - usually that just gets people's backs up. The Liberals soft diplomacy was too soft maybe but surely there could be a happy medium. I know if someone publically embarasses me I'm less inclined to listen and act upon what was criticized. I'd much rather have someone take a private tactic.

[normanchateau]

The Liberal Grand Strategy of sticking your finger in Uncle Sam's eye had no benefit to Canadians. Too soon to tell if Harper's efforts will have success.

In other words, there is absolutely no evidence that Harper's efforts to grovel at the feet of Uncle Sam have been successful.