Harper Declare's Canada is Gutsier

[August1991]

Are you forgetting Mr. Arar?

No, the CBC won't let me. The CBC is also reminding me (like you) that Harper is a dangerous amateur because he dares raise a Canadian/Chinese human rights issue in public.

BTW, the last time I checked, Arar was sent to Syria and detained there while the Liberals were in power.

I think what I object to is the Liberal/CBC belief that only the Liberals know how to run the country.

[jdobbin]

No, the CBC won't let me. The CBC is also reminding me (like you) that Harper is a dangerous amateur because he dares raise a Canadian/Chinese human rights issue in public.

BTW, the last time I checked, Arar was sent to Syria and detained there while the Liberals were in power.

I think what I object to is the Liberal/CBC belief that only the Liberals know how to run the country.

I see just as many CTV reports on Arar. I guess they are Liberal as well.

[Mimas]

Are you forgetting Mr. Arar?

No, the CBC won't let me. The CBC is also reminding me (like you) that Harper is a dangerous amateur because he dares raise a Canadian/Chinese human rights issue in public.

BTW, the last time I checked, Arar was sent to Syria and detained there while the Liberals were in power.

I think what I object to is the Liberal/CBC belief that only the Liberals know how to run the country.

Don't avoid the issue. The Cons would have done absolutely nothing, just as the Libs did on the Arar case. Ablonczy was calling him a terrorist without any evidence that he was a terrorist and praised the US for dealing with him. So which is worse? The Libs doing nothing to help an innocent Canadian who was tortured by a foreign government but said nothing or the Conservatives who would have done nothing to help an innocent Canadian and accused him of being a terrorist with no basis for doing so. Which do you prefer? Are either of these two groups mature enough to run the country?

[Canadian Blue]

So who is "mature" enough to run the country. Certainly not the NDP, as most Canadian's probably would never consider voting for them. The Green's haven't made any headway yet electorally [electing MP's].

Don't avoid the issue. The Cons would have done absolutely nothing, just as the Libs did on the Arar case. Ablonczy was calling him a terrorist without any evidence that he was a terrorist and praised the US for dealing with him. So which is worse? The Libs doing nothing to help an innocent Canadian who was tortured by a foreign government but said nothing or the Conservatives who would have done nothing to help an innocent Canadian and accused him of being a terrorist with no basis for doing so. Which do you prefer? Are either of these two groups mature enough to run the country?

Career politician's were never meant to run a democracy. In my own humble opinion the people who should be elected should be farmers, lawyers, police officers, firefighters, teachers, factory workers, computer technicians, etc. Of course what I mean are average people. If you think that any party will honestly change anything or one man will change anything your wrong. Especially with the current system we have. If the Liberal's were to be elected I wouldn't really notice that much of a difference 12 months from now. Maybe with the NDP because of probable budget cuts.

I'd like to see a party that can combine the best aspects of the Reform party, along with the moderate aspects of the NDP.

[normanchateau]

If the Liberal's were to be elected I wouldn't really notice that much of a difference 12 months from now.

Who would have thought that the Conservatives, the "new" Government of Canada, would have degenerated so quickly in the minds of Conservative supporters?

[Argus]

I hope he thinks that's earning him points at home, because it's not going to get our citizen prisoner Huseyin Celil released. His family must be a little upset to be reading crap like this. Unless Harper struck a deal with the Chinese which includes letting him mouth-off at their expense, that deal is done.

We've heard this drivel from liberals before, that quiet, behind-the-scenes cajoling works much better. We heard it when Canadian William Sampson was being imprisoned and tortured by the Saudis on a trumped up charge. Canada said essentially nothing, did essentially nothing. In fact, Canadian diplomats publicly said he was not tortured, not wanting the Saudis to be embarrassed, they tried to cover up for them.

Sampson was released because the British got involved, and he retained his British citizenship. While Canada did nothing, not daring to offend the Saudis, the British talked tough and made demands, Prince Charles personally spoke with King Abdullah and got their people, including Sampson, out of prison.

I'm reminded of another such case, a Canadian journalist imprisonned in Zambia many years back. He was in an underground hole, jammed together with about fifty other men and boys for almost a year while Canadian officials did nothing. It's not just the Saudis we don't want to offend, you see, it's anyone. There are some countries known abroad as looking after their people. The British are one. Canada is not such a country.

[Argus]

...Chretien hated the U.S. and it showed. Letting his underlings mouth off about Americans, jerking Bush around with changing policies. It's no surprise that Chretien wasn't invited south much, if at all.

What benefit did you personally receive by having our troops not go to Iraq?

Chretien didn't hate the US.

I agree. Chretien's anti-Americanism was strictly business, designed to appeal to certain segments of the population and gain votes.

That it might cost Canada jobs was beside the point. All that ever mattered to Chretien was Chretien.

As far as Harper's in-your-face diplomacy - usually that just gets people's backs up. The Liberals soft diplomacy was too soft

Meaning non-existent.

maybe but surely there could be a happy medium. I know if someone publically embarasses me I'm less inclined to listen and act upon what was criticized. I'd much rather have someone take a private tactic.

What you do is you start quietly, getting progessively more firm when that doesn't work. Then you start waving sticks in people's faces, and then you hit them with the stick.

[Argus]

The Liberal Grand Strategy of sticking your finger in Uncle Sam's eye had no benefit to Canadians. Too soon to tell if Harper's efforts will have success.

In other words, there is absolutely no evidence that Harper's efforts to grovel at the feet of Uncle Sam have been successful.

No evidence he ever made any effort to grovel, either, but don't let a little thing like facts stop you. It never has before.

[Argus]

No, the CBC won't let me. The CBC is also reminding me (like you) that Harper is a dangerous amateur because he dares raise a Canadian/Chinese human rights issue in public.

BTW, the last time I checked, Arar was sent to Syria and detained there while the Liberals were in power.

I think what I object to is the Liberal/CBC belief that only the Liberals know how to run the country.

I see just as many CTV reports on Arar. I guess they are Liberal as well.

The head of CTV once described Jean Chretien as the greatest prime minister in Canadian history.

[Argus]

Whether Harper's approach will yield results for Hussein Celil remains to be seen. However, I don't fault Harper at all for attempting to address this issue with President Hu.

Harper was dealing coolly with the Chinese even Hussein Celil was taken by the Chinese. What was the rationale then?

Hmmm, that they're evil, brutal, corrupt, murdering scum?

[normanchateau]

The Liberal Grand Strategy of sticking your finger in Uncle Sam's eye had no benefit to Canadians. Too soon to tell if Harper's efforts will have success.

In other words, there is absolutely no evidence that Harper's efforts to grovel at the feet of Uncle Sam have been successful.

No evidence he ever made any effort to grovel, either, but don't let a little thing like facts stop you. It never has before.

The softwood lumber deal in which the US kept more than a $1 billion of illegal duties and Harper's Canadian export tax of 15% which is now greater than the 10.5% illegal US duties is grovelling to the US lumber lobby. But why bother yourself with the novel concept of evidence.

[jdobbin]

Hmmm, that they're evil, brutal, corrupt, murdering scum?

If that is what they believe, why not state it when they cancel meetings?

They seem to do a lot of things without announcements. What is the diplomat going to North Korea about? What is this about the North Korean blockade?

[Fortunata]

Just an observation Argus, not a personal attack but don't you think it's dangerous to be so loyal. Bad things have happened in countries where people don't think for themselves but follow doctrine no matter what it is. There is no way on earth that Harper and his government is perfect and no way on earth that the previous Liberal governments were completely wrong. It just doesn't happen that way. I find it very hard to take what you say seriously as it is Cons right, Libs wrong on all I have read that you have written (which, to be fair, isn't everything).

[Argus]

No evidence he ever made any effort to grovel, either, but don't let a little thing like facts stop you. It never has before.

The softwood lumber deal in which the US kept more than a $1 billion of illegal duties and Harper's Canadian export tax of 15% which is now greater than the 10.5% illegal US duties is grovelling to the US lumber lobby. But why bother yourself with the novel concept of evidence.

Gee, they get 1, we get 4. We get access to the US, and what taxes the lumber companies pay now go to us and not the US or the US lumber companies.

Sounds good to me.

[Argus]

Hmmm, that they're evil, brutal, corrupt, murdering scum?

If that is what they believe, why not state it when they cancel meetings?

Oh please.

They seem to do a lot of things without announcements. What is the diplomat going to North Korea about? What is this about the North Korean blockade?

You guys should make up your minds. Is it horrible the Tories speak publicly, or horrible they try to engage in private diplomacy?

Oh, of course, it's horrible no matter what they do!

[Argus]

Just an observation Argus, not a personal attack but don't you think it's dangerous to be so loyal. Bad things have happened in countries where people don't think for themselves but follow doctrine no matter what it is. There is no way on earth that Harper and his government is perfect and no way on earth that the previous Liberal governments were completely wrong. It just doesn't happen that way. I find it very hard to take what you say seriously as it is Cons right, Libs wrong on all I have read that you have written (which, to be fair, isn't everything).

The Chretien era was nothing to write home about. Chretien didn't seem to really care about anything but being in power. He let everything slide, as long as the polls looked good. The only legislation he ever brought forward was that designed to win votes. Chretien was a swaggering, arrogant liar and thief and his government was all about rewarding friends and political allies with taxpayers' money. Just what do you want me to say about them that was good?

How about "While dramatically portraying himself and his party as the saviours of health care in election after election, he did nothing to support health care except slash funding to it, and the system fell apart - but he didn't destroy it completely." How's that?

Most of the criticism of the Tories here is by shrill simpletons awash in hate who would and did completely excuse worse behaviour from the Liberals but are now screaming indignantly about every minor tory gaffe. The Tories have done nothing really bad while in office which merits any great condemnation, not, at least, at the hysterical level of the yapping hypocrites one tends to read around here.

[jdobbin]

Oh please.

You guys should make up your minds. Is it horrible the Tories speak publicly, or horrible they try to engage in private diplomacy?

Oh, of course, it's horrible no matter what they do!

I was fairly critical of the secrecy in the PMO during Chretien and Martin's time in office. I am no less critical now about the lack of information. You seem to be okay with it but at some point, the PMO becomes so close to the vest that it annoys even the party in power.

It is better to be forthcoming than secretive in the way our government has operated in the last few years.

[jbg]

Yes, Harper chose to cancel his trip to Finland to meet with EU leaders because he was afraid of critisism on Kyoto. How many Canadians are being held in Europe?

And the EU gabfest is supposed to accomplish exactly what?

The right confab to hold would be with Bush, Blair (or Brown), John Howard, and Olmert. Canada's rightful place on the world stage is in the proud pantheon of English-speaking countries that have helped make the world a better place, not in the Francophonie nations that have one and one-qarter legitimate countries (France and Canada) but otherwise are better at speaking delphically and in tongues.

[Canadian Blue]

I'd still pick them over the Liberals, since lets face it the Libs are much too arrogant to get elected. As well absolute power corrupts. I usually decide between the lesser of two evils. I actually apparently agree with more of the NDP's policies, but their is no way in hell I'll vote for them until they get a moderate leader who goes after more than the "radical" vote. Jack Layton is a candidate who would be too divisive, he doesn't allow MP's a free vote on SSM and Abortion. As well his position against raising the age of consent worries me as well, I don't know how any political party could be against that and expect to get the vote of middle and lower class families.

If the NDP got a leader such as Gary Doer, then they would probably get my vote, and I'd imagine more then 30 seats.

[normanchateau]

No evidence he ever made any effort to grovel, either, but don't let a little thing like facts stop you. It never has before.

The softwood lumber deal in which the US kept more than a $1 billion of illegal duties and Harper's Canadian export tax of 15% which is now greater than the 10.5% illegal US duties is grovelling to the US lumber lobby. But why bother yourself with the novel concept of evidence.

Gee, they get 1, we get 4. We get access to the US, and what taxes the lumber companies pay now go to us and not the US or the US lumber companies.

Sounds good to me.

Sounds like grovelling to me. When a bully steals $5 from you, bloodies your nose and gives you back $4, he's still a thieving bully. But grovelling Harper thought that was a good deal.

We had access to the US before the softwood lumber "deal". The US bought our lumber when they taxed it at 10.5% and they're still buying it when we tax it at 15%. But shareholders in Canadian softwood lumber companies are paying the price for Harper's grovelling. This week my shares in Canfor, the largest softwood lumber company in Canada, hit a 52 week low. A number of BC lumber companies, thanks to Harper, are now operating at a loss but have not yet shut down operations to keep their workers employed.

Read about it here:

http://thetyee.ca/News/2006/10/13/Softwood/

[gerryhatrick]

I hope he thinks that's earning him points at home, because it's not going to get our citizen prisoner Huseyin Celil released. His family must be a little upset to be reading crap like this. Unless Harper struck a deal with the Chinese which includes letting him mouth-off at their expense, that deal is done.

We've heard this drivel from liberals before, that quiet, behind-the-scenes cajoling works much better.

And we've seen this kind of megaphone "diplomacy" from rightwingers before. It's been well worn by George Bush.

If you think the goal here is anything other than playing to the gullibility of a portion of the home audience then I guess you're part of that audience!

[Argus]

I hope he thinks that's earning him points at home, because it's not going to get our citizen prisoner Huseyin Celil released. His family must be a little upset to be reading crap like this. Unless Harper struck a deal with the Chinese which includes letting him mouth-off at their expense, that deal is done.

We've heard this drivel from liberals before, that quiet, behind-the-scenes cajoling works much better.

And we've seen this kind of megaphone "diplomacy" from rightwingers before. It's been well worn by George Bush.

If you think the goal here is anything other than playing to the gullibility of a portion of the home audience then I guess you're part of that audience!

What do you think the "goal" is when the Liberals do absolutely nothing about human rights abuses, even agaisnt their own citizens? Mind you, the Liberals themselves are guilty of human rights violations against their own citizens, so I can see where they wouldn't be much bothered there...

[Argus]

Gee, they get 1, we get 4. We get access to the US, and what taxes the lumber companies pay now go to us and not the US or the US lumber companies.

Sounds good to me.

Sounds like grovelling to me. When a bully steals $5 from you, bloodies your nose and gives you back $4, he's still a thieving bully.

When the bully in question pours money all over you every year you learn to make a few accomodations.

We had access to the US before the softwood lumber "deal". The US bought our lumber when they taxed it at 10.5% and they're still buying it when we tax it at 15%. But shareholders in Canadian softwood lumber companies are paying the price for Harper's grovelling. This week my shares in Canfor, the largest softwood lumber company in Canada, hit a 52 week low. A number of BC lumber companies, thanks to Harper, are now operating at a loss but have not yet shut down operations to keep their workers employed.

It's called a market economy. You might never have bothered to learn about things like that when someone told you to invest in lumber companies, but you see, they only sell as much as people buy. And since the American home building boom has cooled, they're buying less. Have someone smart explain to you the inevitable consequences of this to those who invest in lumber companies.

[normanchateau]

Gee, they get 1, we get 4. We get access to the US, and what taxes the lumber companies pay now go to us and not the US or the US lumber companies.

Sounds good to me.

Sounds like grovelling to me. When a bully steals $5 from you, bloodies your nose and gives you back $4, he's still a thieving bully.

When the bully in question pours money all over you every year you learn to make a few accomodations.

So do prostitutes.

[sharkman]

Sounds like grovelling to me. When a bully steals $5 from you, bloodies your nose and gives you back $4, he's still a thieving bully. But grovelling Harper thought that was a good deal.

We had access to the US before the softwood lumber "deal". The US bought our lumber when they taxed it at 10.5% and they're still buying it when we tax it at 15%. But shareholders in Canadian softwood lumber companies are paying the price for Harper's grovelling. This week my shares in Canfor, the largest softwood lumber company in Canada, hit a 52 week low. A number of BC lumber companies, thanks to Harper, are now operating at a loss but have not yet shut down operations to keep their workers employed.

Come on Norm, are your analytical skills unable to take in the big picture? The U.S. lumber market dried up. Houses markets tend to boom and bust. If you're going to whine about Harper concerning an industry, at least give yourself the credibility to observe all parts of the situation.

They've been warning about the bubble bursting in the U.S. housing market for over a year.