Netherlands to propose burqa ban

[betsy]

The question then is, what relevance is the 80% figure for Muslims?

The relevance is that their belief goes against the western way of life. If Islam sees the western way of life as evil.....and if Islam calls for all muslims to rise up cos it's time to rid the world of evil....how do you think those 80% British muslims will react....if they valiantly place their religion above all else?

We see some radicals answering to calls of jihad...and fatwa! They anwser to calls of protests...violent protests! All over the world!

What if Islam had decided to place a fatwa on each and every infidel's head?

What if the choice a muslim faces is that of his...faith, or British citizenship? 80% muslims had already placed their faith above their citizenship.

And if these muslims are called upon to, prove it?

Yes, there are other religious sects other than Muslims...but those mentioned groups do not have a belief such as that doctrined by Islam! There is no threat from them!

[betsy]

Anyway, why should we tolerate this religion that is sytematically turning us...slowly, but surely...into their repressive belief?

Who are these people to dictate that NIKE SHOES must get rid of a little logo in the back of shoes...just because they resemble a figure in their Koran? Nike had recalled most of their shoes back....but apparently that is not good enough! Some Muslims are still complaining that ALL must be recalled!

You guys, you don't see that? The meaning of that to our way of life?

[Charles Anthony]

The relevance is that their belief goes against the western way of life.

No, it does not.

If Islam sees the western way of life as evil.....

It does not.

and if Islam calls for all muslims to rise up cos it's time to rid the world of evil....

It does not.

how do you think those 80% British muslims will react....

Do you mean before or after you label ALL OF THEM with false accusations???

What if Islam had decided to place a fatwa on each and every infidel's head?

Wait a minute..... How does "Islam" decide anything???

Anyway, why should we tolerate this religion that is sytematically turning us...slowly, but surely...into their repressive belief?

Because we have tin-foil hats that can protect us.

You guys, you don't see that? The meaning of that to our way of life?

No, I do not see it.

[betsy]

The relevance is that their belief goes against the western way of life.

No, it does not.

If Islam sees the western way of life as evil.....

It does not.

and if Islam calls for all muslims to rise up cos it's time to rid the world of evil....

It does not.

how do you think those 80% British muslims will react....

Do you mean before or after you label ALL OF THEM with false accusations???

What if Islam had decided to place a fatwa on each and every infidel's head?

Wait a minute..... How does "Islam" decide anything???

Anyway, why should we tolerate this religion that is sytematically turning us...slowly, but surely...into their repressive belief?

Because we have tin-foil hats that can protect us.

You guys, you don't see that? The meaning of that to our way of life?

No, I do not see it.

You can close your eyes....or look the other way.....and pretend that all is nice and rosy....and that everybody will end up going all huggy-huggy...and patty-patty on the back....just give it a chance....we all love peace...blah-blah-blah.

But you cannot deny the fact...oil and water do not mix well.

If things don't change positively (on Islam's side)...there'll come a time when liberal-thinkers will have to make a stand and be definite and exact as to where your loyalties lie. There will come a time when you cannot sit on both side of the fence...trying to do a juggling and balancing act.. We'll all have to come to a decision for the good of EVERYONE.

And by everyone...I also mean the 20% of muslims who had placed their citizenship above their faith...doing the ultimate sacrifice in their decisions...in their bid to stay in a society where there is no repression!

[136GreenRoad]

The question then is, what relevance is the 80% figure for Muslims?

The relevance is that their belief goes against the western way of life.

For those others (Jews, Christians etc) who put their religion ahead of their citizenship should we be also accusing them of going "against the western way of life"?

[136GreenRoad]

Anyway, why should we tolerate this religion that is sytematically turning us...slowly, but surely...into their repressive belief?

Who are these people to dictate that NIKE SHOES must get rid of a little logo in the back of shoes...just because they resemble a figure in their Koran? Nike had recalled most of their shoes back....but apparently that is not good enough! Some Muslims are still complaining that ALL must be recalled!

You guys, you don't see that? The meaning of that to our way of life?

I agree. I was appalled at Madonna using a cross as part of her act.

[betsy]

The question then is, what relevance is the 80% figure for Muslims?

The relevance is that their belief goes against the western way of life.

For those others (Jews, Christians etc) who put their religion ahead of their citizenship should we be also accusing them of going "against the western way of life"?

Why, do they believe and shout, "death to all infidels"?

[betsy]

Anyway, why should we tolerate this religion that is sytematically turning us...slowly, but surely...into their repressive belief?

Who are these people to dictate that NIKE SHOES must get rid of a little logo in the back of shoes...just because they resemble a figure in their Koran? Nike had recalled most of their shoes back....but apparently that is not good enough! Some Muslims are still complaining that ALL must be recalled!

You guys, you don't see that? The meaning of that to our way of life?

I agree. I was appalled at Madonna using a cross as part of her act.

So was I!

But did someone try to blow her up?

Or did a massive protest...violent protest? Shoot any other hollywood members (just like someone shot a nun over what the Pope said)?

Did anyone threaten to contract a hitman to put a bullet through her head?

[136GreenRoad]

The question then is, what relevance is the 80% figure for Muslims?

The relevance is that their belief goes against the western way of life.

For those others (Jews, Christians etc) who put their religion ahead of their citizenship should we be also accusing them of going "against the western way of life"?

Why, do they believe and shout, "death to all infidels"?

Do all the 80% of Muslims who put their religion ahead of citizenship go around shouting, "death to all infidels"?

[betsy]

The question then is, what relevance is the 80% figure for Muslims?

The relevance is that their belief goes against the western way of life.

For those others (Jews, Christians etc) who put their religion ahead of their citizenship should we be also accusing them of going "against the western way of life"?

How will you support that accusation....that they are against the western way of life?

You may not know it...and others may scoff at it...but no one can deny the fact that the way of life we enjoy now, is derived from the Judeo Christian values!

[betsy]

Do all the 80% of Muslims who put their religion ahead of citizenship go around shouting, "death to all infidels"?

Post #26 had already addressed that.

[betsy]

Anyway, why should we tolerate this religion that is sytematically turning us...slowly, but surely...into their repressive belief?

Who are these people to dictate that NIKE SHOES must get rid of a little logo in the back of shoes...just because they resemble a figure in their Koran? Nike had recalled most of their shoes back....but apparently that is not good enough! Some Muslims are still complaining that ALL must be recalled!

You guys, you don't see that? The meaning of that to our way of life?

I agree. I was appalled at Madonna using a cross as part of her act.

But you know what, we are also setting us up for other extremists from various religions.

Once they see that terrorism is effectively working in imposing one's view and beliefs....who knows, maybe we'll see more abortion clinics blowing up...or High-protein diet proponents and butchers being butchered....or gyms nextdoor to churches of all kinds getting bombed...

[136GreenRoad]

Do all the 80% of Muslims who put their religion ahead of citizenship go around shouting, "death to all infidels"?

Post #26 had already addressed that.

From Post #26

how do you think those 80% British muslims will react....if they valiantly place their religion above all else?

We see some radicals answering to calls of jihad...and fatwa! They anwser to calls of protests...violent protests! All over the world!

What if Islam had decided to place a fatwa on each and every infidel's head?

What if the choice a muslim faces is that of his...faith, or British citizenship? 80% muslims had already placed their faith above their citizenship.

And if these muslims are called upon to, prove it?

All good questions. But what about other religious persons who put their faith above their commitment to their citizenship - how would they react if they were forced to choose? We have seen abortion clinics bombed, albeit by a few and, of course, this has been condemned by mainline religionists.

There have been instances of homophobia with gays being assaulted but again I would regard this as isolated. It will be interesting to see what happens in RSA after legalizing what is referred to as "gay marriage" but which in effect is a registered partnership a la the UK. Feelings against homosexuals run a lot higher there than here. Will be see an outbreak of attacks on gays?

[betsy]

Do all the 80% of Muslims who put their religion ahead of citizenship go around shouting, "death to all infidels"?

Post #26 had already addressed that.

From Post #26

how do you think those 80% British muslims will react....if they valiantly place their religion above all else?

We see some radicals answering to calls of jihad...and fatwa! They anwser to calls of protests...violent protests! All over the world!

What if Islam had decided to place a fatwa on each and every infidel's head?

What if the choice a muslim faces is that of his...faith, or British citizenship? 80% muslims had already placed their faith above their citizenship.

And if these muslims are called upon to, prove it?

All good questions. But what about other religious persons who put their faith above their commitment to their citizenship - how would they react if they were forced to choose? We have seen abortion clinics bombed, albeit by a few and, of course, this has been condemned by mainline religionists.

There have been instances of homophobia with gays being assaulted but again I would regard this as isolated. It will be interesting to see what happens in RSA after legalizing what is referred to as "gay marriage" but which in effect is a registered partnership a la the UK. Feelings against homosexuals run a lot higher there than here. Will be see an outbreak of attacks on gays?

You're forgetting one thing: Bombing abortion clinics and violent attacks on gays...or any other human beings...are against the teachings of Christianity. In fact, such acts are condemned by the church!

Whereas, suicide bombings and other terrorist acts are endorsed and actually...considered as an act of martyrdom by Islam.

So let's put things in the proper perspective here.

[Black Dog]

I think it's time the Muslim immigrant communities made a statement as to whether they want to be part of their hosts, or the parasite that destroys their hosts.

Change "Muslim" to "Jew" and this could have been ripped from the headlines of Der Stürmer.

There is a shift happening in Europe.

This burqua banning is so seemingly petty actually (with only a few women affected)....but because of its seeming "pettiness," it does speaks quite loudly!

The message is clear.

Yep. It's telling Muslims that they aren't welcome, that their ways are inferior and that the west stands opposed to Islam. Pretty much a radical mullah's wet dream.

[136GreenRoad]

So let's put things in the proper perspective here.

That's what I was doing. I was pointing out that although abortion and homosexuality are abhorrent to some Christians violent reaction has been minimal and condemned by Christian churches.

Even though homosexuality is part of the cultural mainstream in the west gays are still persecuted in non-Christan communities.

But in a country like this one I still don't know how many Muslims actually support the teachings of the extremist Islamic groups.

[jefferiah]

The burqa issue could be about more than a dress code issue. Whether you agree with it or not, I think the motivation behind it has more to do with the face being covered than making an actual statement against Islam. There could be a man under there with a gun. You could conceal anything, and this is scary if you work in a bank. In a lot of cases the burqa is like a ninja suit complete with a baliklava.

[jefferiah]

I think you know people often misjudge what people mean when they say when you are in the west you should act western. What most people mean when they say this is that they should have respect for our culture over here and not try to complain about it so much or soften it because it is offensive to them, or change our rules to suit them. I think it is ridiculous that Sikhs can wear kirpans to school. In Canada you dont bring daggers to school. Sikh or not. This isnt about turning immigrants into Moosehead swilling hockey fans. Its about expecting them to be tolerant of the established traditions in our country without making complaint about them when they are not hurting anyone. An RCMP officer wears a particular uniform. So this is what is expected of all RCMP officers. We are not talking about forcing people to become Canadianized. But if I get a job for the RCMP I wont fight for the right to wear my Habs Jersey as part of my uniform. This isnt about starting an assimilation police as the leftists seem to say. Its about keeping our own policies in place for everyone and expecting people who move here to comply with them.

[136GreenRoad]

The burqa issue could be about more than a dress code issue. Whether you agree with it or not, I think the motivation behind it has more to do with the face being covered than making an actual statement against Islam. There could be a man under there with a gun. You could conceal anything, and this is scary if you work in a bank. In a lot of cases the burqa is like a ninja suit complete with a baliklava.

That's why it doesn't have to be an an all-or-nothing approach. Let them by all means wear a burqa walking down the street but when it comes to going into a business establishment perhaps other rules need to apply.

[136GreenRoad]

I think you know people often misjudge what people mean when they say when you are in the west you should act western. What most people mean when they say this is that they should have respect for our culture over here and not try to complain about it so much or soften it because it is offensive to them, or change our rules to suit them. I think it is ridiculous that Sikhs can wear kirpans to school. In Canada you dont bring daggers to school. Sikh or not. This isnt about turning immigrants into Moosehead swilling hockey fans. Its about expecting them to be tolerant of the established traditions in our country without making complaint about them when they are not hurting anyone. An RCMP officer wears a particular uniform. So this is what is expected of all RCMP officers. We are not talking about forcing people to become Canadianized. But if I get a job for the RCMP I wont fight for the right to wear my Habs Jersey as part of my uniform. This isnt about starting an assimilation police as the leftists seem to say. Its about keeping our own policies in place for everyone and expecting people who move here to comply with them.

On the other hand we don't have the right to ban dress just because it's not part of our tradition. I live in a very ethnic area and on a summer day I see the gamut of girls with their tits practically falling out of their halters, elderly Italian ladies head-to-foot in black, Hasidic Jews, Sikhs with turbans and many women wearing hijabs. None of it seems out of place.

[jefferiah]

The burqa issue could be about more than a dress code issue. Whether you agree with it or not, I think the motivation behind it has more to do with the face being covered than making an actual statement against Islam. There could be a man under there with a gun. You could conceal anything, and this is scary if you work in a bank. In a lot of cases the burqa is like a ninja suit complete with a baliklava.

That's why it doesn't have to be an an all-or-nothing approach. Let them by all means wear a burqa walking down the street but when it comes to going into a business establishment perhaps other rules need to apply.

Well this might be a better idea. I think you understand I am not trying to dictate what people should wear. I never even said I agreed with the ban or not. I am undecided. I just said that I think there are some good reasons for it. You mentioned girls scantily clad and Hasidic Jews, etc....but as far as I know none of these examples can compare to the disguise aspect of a burqa, which I fully realize is not the intent in the burqa in the first place...but nonetheless.

[betsy]

But in a country like this one I still don't know how many Muslims actually support the teachings of the extremist Islamic groups.

Well, after reading the happenings in Britain (please refer to the other topic "British Muslims groomed to Kill at the "rest of the world" section, especially the article I've posted, Piggybacking On Terror In Britain), I have changed my views...dramatically.

I hope to see the west take a strong stand. Tolerance is not for those who seek not to tolerate others...but also seek to destroy. The west had been generous in opening its doors....but its way of life should not be jeopardized, nor its citizens be endangered by doing so. Not in our own soil!

Only those who truly wish to partake of the freedom and the way of life that we offer should be welcome to stay.

Those who seek to change our way of life by every means possible, should not be welcomed by us.

[betsy]

That's why it doesn't have to be an an all-or-nothing approach. Let them by all means wear a burqa walking down the street but when it comes to going into a business establishment perhaps other rules need to apply.

The Netherlands is especially known for being quite liberal!

For it to impose a ban on burquas...which actually only affects a very minimal percentage of women, thus making it look petty....is actually stating a clear message to the Muslims.

I really think this is not just about burquas! Europe is shifting! They're fed up, to put it simply.

[Black Dog]

I hope to see the west take a strong stand. Tolerance is not for those who seek not to tolerate others...but also seek to destroy. The west had been generous in opening its doors....but its way of life should not be jeopardized, nor its citizens be endangered by doing so. Not in our own soil!

Only those who truly wish to partake of the freedom and the way of life that we offer should be welcome to stay.

Those who seek to change our way of life by every means possible, should not be welcomed by us.

Can you explain how dictating what individuals can and cannot wear is going to make a difference? You concede its petty and will have minimal practical effect. So what's the point? What is the big "message" being sent?

[betsy]

I hope to see the west take a strong stand. Tolerance is not for those who seek not to tolerate others...but also seek to destroy. The west had been generous in opening its doors....but its way of life should not be jeopardized, nor its citizens be endangered by doing so. Not in our own soil!

Only those who truly wish to partake of the freedom and the way of life that we offer should be welcome to stay.

Those who seek to change our way of life by every means possible, should not be welcomed by us.

Can you explain how dictating what individuals can and cannot wear is going to make a difference? You concede its petty and will have minimal practical effect. So what's the point? What is the big "message" being sent?

A shift in tolerance! A defiance!