Tories are on a spending spree

[geoffrey]

Well well... we elect someone to cut taxes and pork from the pig that Ottawa has become and what happens?

Revenues were up $5.6 billion, or 5.3 per cent, driven by strong growth in income tax revenues, while program spending was up $5 billion, or 6.1 per cent, due to a combination of higher transfers and other program expenses.

6.1 percent growth in spending. That's about 3 percent higher than inflation this year. Where is the government going to find the money? Of course by raising the tax burden by 5.3 percent, 2 and bit percent above inflation.

So the CPC is collecting more money, spending more money, faster than the economy is growing. Fiscal conservatism my ass.

September however, runs in the red.

The Conservatives are spending out of control. Double inflation is not an acceptable level of growth by any party... especially with taxation when a major surplus is expected at the end of the year.

I think we all need to demand a 10% income tax reduction next year...

Personal income tax revenues were up $5 billion or 10.5 per cent, reflecting solid growth in employment and incomes, while corporate income tax revenues were up $1.5 billion or 11.7 per cent, reflecting higher profits.

Anything less is unacceptable in my opinion.

I voted for Harper to cut my taxes, and reduce Ottawa's spending. We've got neither. Tax revenues are skyrocketing, so is spending. Next try Stevie, but it's time you move along.

I think we should call for Flaherty's resignation. His policies aren't sustainable. I wouldn't dare elect a CPC government to a majority full term. Over 5 years our taxes as a percent of the economy would be devastating and the spending more so.

Source: http://www.canada.com/topics/finance/story...53-1f1e1b159a73

Obviously, my frustration with this government is showing... and I was one of the strongest supporters of the CPC. What ideological platitude have they maintained from their campaign? I can't find one.

[jdobbin]

Source: http://www.canada.com/topics/finance/story...53-1f1e1b159a73

Obviously, my frustration with this government is showing... and I was one of the strongest supporters of the CPC. What ideological platitude have they maintained from their campaign? I can't find one.

I'm a bit surprised that it has happened so fast.

One thing is certain. You can't cut taxes without making cuts in service. And so far all they have done is cut programs they didn't like in the first place. Now they are going to have cut areas that they don't want to cut but will have to if they want to cut GST another per cent before the next election.

[geoffrey]

I'm a bit surprised that it has happened so fast.

One thing is certain. You can't cut taxes without making cuts in service. And so far all they have done is cut programs they didn't like in the first place. Now they are going to have cut areas that they don't want to cut but will have to if they want to cut GST another per cent before the next election.

I think maybe we were too quick to judge the Liberals fiscal management. Paul Martin was the most competent Finance Minister we've had. Harper even made that statement during his acceptance speech (I was there in person, that's how much I supported the CPC... silly me).

I somehow had the impression that the CPC would just walk in there and cut and slash everything to the ground. Apparently not. And now we are running deficit months... which isn't a big deal to me, but you've got to wonder how quickly they can tear apart years of fiscal prudence (up until the NDP budget anyways).

It's tough. I doubt if the Liberals would cut more. But obviously if spending is up double inflation, a message needs to be sent. And how can you send a message to a minority government?

[Black Dog]

Obviously, my frustration with this government is showing... and I was one of the strongest supporters of the CPC. What ideological platitude have they maintained from their campaign? I can't find one.

When's the gay marriage free vote?

[geoffrey]

Obviously, my frustration with this government is showing... and I was one of the strongest supporters of the CPC. What ideological platitude have they maintained from their campaign? I can't find one.

When's the gay marriage free vote?

Great, they'll keep the one promise I could care less about.

[Black Dog]

Great, they'll keep the one promise I could care less about.

See, this is why I support the NDP. I neve rhave to worry about their actions not matching their rhetoric.

On t'other hand, this does kind of dispell the notion that the CPC=the Republicans. The latter campaigns against the homos, and then cuts taxes. The former plays the fiscal responsibility card and gives you free votes on a non-issue.

[Topaz]

I guess that 's what you get when two parties, Alliance and PC's want to the seating party to govern. Oil and water don't mix and I don't think this party will be together 10 years from now. The PC's made a bad decision to join this party, the Alliance is more like the The Bloc!! I believed that Harper wasn't experience enough political to be PM and all the mistakes he's made will cost him next election!

[jdobbin]

I think maybe we were too quick to judge the Liberals fiscal management. Paul Martin was the most competent Finance Minister we've had. Harper even made that statement during his acceptance speech (I was there in person, that's how much I supported the CPC... silly me).

I somehow had the impression that the CPC would just walk in there and cut and slash everything to the ground. Apparently not. And now we are running deficit months... which isn't a big deal to me, but you've got to wonder how quickly they can tear apart years of fiscal prudence (up until the NDP budget anyways).

It's tough. I doubt if the Liberals would cut more. But obviously if spending is up double inflation, a message needs to be sent. And how can you send a message to a minority government?

Paul Martin was a good finance minister. It is why it is hard to fathom why he had so difficult a time running the country.

There is a lot of unforeseen things in politics. I don't think Harper thought that foreign policy would take up anywhere near the time it does.

I think that Harper has to focus on the economy and taxes if he is to gain ground on the Liberals.

[geoffrey]

I think that Harper has to focus on the economy and taxes if he is to gain ground on the Liberals.

True. It's the CPC's strong point, it's an easy sell to a middle-income family to tell them they will have more money.

Canada is in desperate need of some major tax and economic reform. We are going to keep falling down the quality of life and productivity indexes unless something is done fast. The CPC seems unwilling, but it's not too late to change that. A whole new tax package would be a winner... doubt if we'll see it though, probably more of the same.

The new budget will be very good news... the government is going to fall on it so it has to be. Let's see how good news it really is in real terms.

[Argus]

I think maybe we were too quick to judge the Liberals fiscal management. Paul Martin was the most competent Finance Minister we've had. Harper even made that statement during his acceptance speech (I was there in person, that's how much I supported the CPC... silly me).

First of all, your complaint about the tories seems to be based on the most absurdly naive view of government I've seen on this forum for quite some time. How do I put this... the federal government and it's programs are like the largest oil tanker ever made. It plods along on a set course, and is very slow to react to anything. Once you turn the wheel it is going to keep going along for quite some time before it slowly, slowly begins to shift direction.

Six months since his budget, and you really think anything he's done has had any major affect yet?! Holy Christ, man! Most of what changes he's made are probably only now beginning to perculate down from the upper reaches of government to senior planning teams in the various departments and agencies tasked with figuring out how to make them work. The spending that has been taking place over the last months was largely spending planned and ordered last year under Martin.

And speaking of the great God Martin and the wonderful Liberals, have a look at program spending over the last few years. It rose faster than at any point in recent Canadian history, faster even than under Trudeau, as first Chretien, and then Martin tried to spend their way out of trouble and into power.

I somehow had the impression that the CPC would just walk in there and cut and slash everything to the ground. Apparently not.

How in Christ's name do you expect him to make huge spending cuts with with the numbers in parliament? He can't even cut the gun registry without getting voted out of office. You are not going to see big program cuts until and unless his government has some stability - and a majority.

I doubt if the Liberals would cut more.

The Liberals had no intention of cutting at all, nor did they promise to do so. For the last three years all they've been promising is money to everyone and anyone they thought could get them some votes.

[geoffrey]

First of all, your complaint about the tories seems to be based on the most absurdly naive view of government I've seen on this forum for quite some time. How do I put this... the federal government and it's programs are like the largest oil tanker ever made. It plods along on a set course, and is very slow to react to anything. Once you turn the wheel it is going to keep going along for quite some time before it slowly, slowly begins to shift direction.

Wrong. Projections and everything can change on a dime. If surpluses can rise and fall that fast, so can expenditures. Making excuses doesn't change that expenses are skyrocketing and so is government collection of our money. They increased your income tax rate this year, while producing a massive surplus and a 10% growth in income tax revenues. Straight up, are you ok with that?

Six months since his budget, and you really think anything he's done has had any major affect yet?! Holy Christ, man! Most of what changes he's made are probably only now beginning to perculate down from the upper reaches of government to senior planning teams in the various departments and agencies tasked with figuring out how to make them work. The spending that has been taking place over the last months was largely spending planned and ordered last year under Martin.

The government works on a budget system. You cut people's budget, give them less cash, and they figure out how to make it work. There was a 6% growth in budgets this year. That's unacceptable.

And speaking of the great God Martin and the wonderful Liberals, have a look at program spending over the last few years. It rose faster than at any point in recent Canadian history, faster even than under Trudeau, as first Chretien, and then Martin tried to spend their way out of trouble and into power.

Yes, I agree. That's why I said up until the NDP budget. I don't think that spending was justfied either.

How in Christ's name do you expect him to make huge spending cuts with with the numbers in parliament? He can't even cut the gun registry without getting voted out of office. You are not going to see big program cuts until and unless his government has some stability - and a majority.

So far, he's raised taxes, attacked seniors savings, refused to even try to cut in any major way. Why would I trust him to do differently with a majority? Is this his government, or the government of the opposition?

The first thing about being in a leadership role is accepting responsibility, something I haven't seen so far.

The Liberals had no intention of cutting at all, nor did they promise to do so. For the last three years all they've been promising is money to everyone and anyone they thought could get them some votes.

They didn't raise my taxes in quite some time. The CPC did and attacked the first attempt at modernizing our economy. All on their own accord.

The government's income tax base increased 10% this year. Where is my share? How has my life improved? It hasn't. Inflation hasn't gone up 10%. So the government has failed us. 10% can be cut in the next budget, if it's not, then the CPC maintains the same tax and spend Liberal mentality. At least the Liberals knew how to deal with markets though and not crash the TSX 300 points the day after announcments.

The CPC looks very inexperienced. It's ugly. It's a mess. We pay more, the government spends more. If I wanted that, I'd vote NDP. Why should I vote CPC if that's their result?

The Liberals cut tax revenues with a minority. Why can't the CPC?

Why can't they allow income trusts as a first step at bringing our economy into the 21st century?

[hiti]

I knew this was coming but so soon??? These Tories haven't been in power a full budget year yet and they are in a deficit. And why have they allowed spending to increase above revenues? How come all conservatives are the same. Can't stop spending and balance the books. Just like Bush, Harper is pouring every cent he can into the military right now, which our military is the only international pride left to Canada after the Kyoto and China fiasco.

Today the Alberta Tories found out they would have a few billions more than they figured so right away they call a news conference to announce more spending. Geez! Alberta is losing oil and it will not be replaced and the government is on a spending spree. Can't even wait for the new guy cause if it's Dinning he might save it since he is a Liberal with a Tory coat.

I know that last year I saved almost $400 on my personal income taxes. This year I'll be lucky to save $36 with the Harpo's GST cut and his claw-back of the Liberal tax reduction on the lowest rate. Only those with the big bucks to buy cars and plasma tv's are saving with this GST fiasco. The majority don't notice that there has been a user tax cut.

We need an election now. Can't wait for another of Harpo's budgets.

[Riverwind]

The first thing about being in a leadership role is accepting responsibility, something I haven't seen so far.

The income trust decision took a lot of guts and leadership. Just because you don't agree with the decision does not mean it was not difficult to make.

The Liberals cut tax revenues with a minority. Why can't the CPC?

What was the GST cut? Cost the gov't $5 billion/year. You can bet that the CPC holding onto whatever cash they can so they can follow up with another 1% cut next year. If you are unhappy about the lack of income or business tax cuts then you should look no further than the plan to cut the GST which forced the CPC to put all of their tax cutting eggs into one basket.

Why can't they allow income trusts as a first step at bringing our economy into the 21st century?

Allowing special rules for income trusts is a bad idea even if the long term plan is to lower corporate taxes to zero. The system was broken as along as companies felt they had to adopt less than optimal business structures in order to lower their taxes. If a company becomes a trust it should be for business reasons - not tax reasons.

[geoffrey]

The income trust decision took a lot of guts and leadership. Just because you don't agree with the decision does not mean it was not difficult to make.

I disagree. The first thing they did was call it a Tax Fairness Plan and then Flaherty decided that he was protecting seniors so that justified the broken promise. Justifying your failures with ridiculous rhetoric doesn't make you responsible.

What was the GST cut? Cost the gov't $5 billion/year. You can bet that the CPC holding onto whatever cash they can so they can follow up with another 1% cut next year. If you are unhappy about the lack of income or business tax cuts then you should look no further than the dumb plan to cut the GST.

I'm ok with the GST cut. Just why the increase in income taxes? Tax revenue increased more than inflation, which means we are paying a higher share of our earnings to the government. This is never acceptable.

Allowing income trusts is a bad idea even if the long term plan is to lower corporate taxes to zero. The system was broken as along as companies felt they had to adopt less than optimal business structures in order to lower their taxes. If a company becomes a trust it should be for business reasons - not tax reasons.

Ideally, yes. But Canadian companies could no longer compete internationally with our oppressive taxation. It was partially a business decision. Why do companies do this? To attract more capital. The income trusts situation was merely a symptom of a much larger problem in Canada. It was like removing one boyle from someone with the Bubonic plague...

If Canadian companies could compete, they wouldn't be jumping to trusts. The Americans aren't, the EU nations aren't... and their tax laws are somewhat compatible with trusts.

Less than a week after the trusts decision, I read in a trade publication of an elaborate debt-equity offering that would essientially do the same as the trusts. The Canadian business community is struggling against oppressive and outdated tax structures. If this isn't changed in the next year or so, I fear the damage will be permenent. We are already one of the least productive nations in the OECD... despite considerably shorter working hours, Norway or Ireland producing a far greater GDP contribution per capita than us. It's pathetic. It needs to change now before we forever lose our foreign capital.

[kimmy]

Andrew Pyle, Scotiabank’s chief economist, said he suspects the GST cut and other taxes, plus the slowing economy, should trim the final surplus for the year down to a more politically acceptable level of close to $4 billion, and with further tax cuts in next year’s budget keep it to $4.5 billion next year.

They're projecting an end of the year surplus of $4 billion, and a surplus next year of $4.5 billion. So apparently, if they recorded a deficit in September, they must have done pretty well during the rest of the year.

Since when do we get month-by-month federal balance-sheets, anyway? I've never heard of one before today.

I'm curious to hear what form these "higher transfers and program expenses" took, however.

At any rate, a $4 billion surplus this year doesn't exactly sound like he's spending us into the poorhouse.

-k

[geoffrey]

That's not my main area of contention here Kimmy.

He's not spending us into the poorhouse. He's raising our taxes to spend our money on his priorities. That's not what we voted for. We voted to have more of our money back from Ottawa, to decentralise things.

Didn't happen. In fact, it's going quickly in the opposite direction.

Nothing justifies a 10% increase in collected income tax without a major tax cut in the next budget. Like I said, a 10% cut in income tax would be ok, or a combination of GST and income tax.

Even better would be the elimination of corporate taxes and a complete reform of the way we tax in Canada to move more in line with modern economies.

[hiti]

They're projecting an end of the year surplus of $4 billion, and a surplus next year of $4.5 billion. So apparently, if they recorded a deficit in September, they must have done pretty well during the rest of the year.

Since when do we get month-by-month federal balance-sheets, anyway? I've never heard of one before today.

I'm curious to hear what form these "higher transfers and program expenses" took, however.

At any rate, a $4 billion surplus this year doesn't exactly sound like he's spending us into the poorhouse.

-k

Seems that there was a surplus of over $6 billion this past July and that has been disappearing. I suspect that those "higher transfers and program expenses" are all military related with buying new equipment, shipping more equipment to Afghanistan and increasing our forces in Afghanistan.

The Liberals left the country with $13 billion and Harpo has already spent $9 billion of that..............

Not good.

[Riverwind]

If Canadian companies could compete, they wouldn't be jumping to trusts. The Americans aren't, the EU nations aren't... and their tax laws are somewhat compatible with trusts.

The Americans started taxing income trusts in the 90s as soon as the realized that non-real estate companies were willing to use the structure. Canadian companies when to trusts because it was a tax loop hole that they did not want to ignore. It has nothing to do with the competitiveness of Canadian companies.

[geoffrey]

If Canadian companies could compete, they wouldn't be jumping to trusts. The Americans aren't, the EU nations aren't... and their tax laws are somewhat compatible with trusts.

The Americans started taxing income trusts in the 90s as soon as the realized that non-real estate companies were willing to use the structure. Canadian companies when to trusts because it was a tax loop hole that they did not want to ignore. It has nothing to do with the competitiveness of Canadian companies.

That's not true. American companies are still able to offer debt-equity units to a mutual trust, in a similar fashion to the new loophole many companies are looking at exploiting now in Canada.

It has everything to do with the competitiveness of Canadian companies... I don't think the statistics lie when we see that Canada is falling behind the rest of the Western world in productivity, foreign investment and small business startups. And I can tell you our antiquated tax system is a leading factor in this. Income trusts are an acceptable method of attracting investment... why get rid of them and increase a crisis in progress?

The way the government has handled this was poor as well. The markets losing confidence in your government isn't something you want to have happen. A suprise announcement like that, it's tough. How can we trust any fiscal policies when they just change 9 months later?

One key aspect of attracting investment both domestically and internationally is confidence that the government is going to stand by it's word and your going to not have to deal with wildly fluctuating systems of taxation, which we are seeing now, without warning. This seat of the pants decision hurt Canada's appearance in the foreign investment world.

[Cameron]

They're projecting an end of the year surplus of $4 billion, and a surplus next year of $4.5 billion. So apparently, if they recorded a deficit in September, they must have done pretty well during the rest of the year.

Since when do we get month-by-month federal balance-sheets, anyway? I've never heard of one before today.

I'm curious to hear what form these "higher transfers and program expenses" took, however.

At any rate, a $4 billion surplus this year doesn't exactly sound like he's spending us into the poorhouse.

-k

Seems that there was a surplus of over $6 billion this past July and that has been disappearing. I suspect that those "higher transfers and program expenses" are all military related with buying new equipment, shipping more equipment to Afghanistan and increasing our forces in Afghanistan.

The Liberals left the country with $13 billion and Harpo has already spent $9 billion of that..............

Not good.

What's not good about it???? It's 13 billion extra....he spent it on the military. They needed it more than I did....money well spent in my books.

Good post Argus.

Another thing about the taxes. I remember when he was launching the GST cut. Harper said that the tax package was different than the liberals and there would be some adjustments made before it was in full effect. Think of it as making changes on your phone bill. For the first month it's all out of wack, then it gets back on track. As Argus said, the country takes time to change, if "we" could give the Liberals 14 years, I think we can give the CPC a little bit more time.

[August1991]

I agree with Cameron. The most intelligent post on this thread is Argus's:

First of all, your complaint about the tories seems to be based on the most absurdly naive view of government I've seen on this forum for quite some time. How do I put this... the federal government and it's programs are like the largest oil tanker ever made. It plods along on a set course, and is very slow to react to anything. Once you turn the wheel it is going to keep going along for quite some time before it slowly, slowly begins to shift direction.

They were elected in January. Harper promised to keep all of Martin's crazy spending spree promises. The fiscal year started in April 2006 so we're now only about six months in. WTF do you expect Harper to do? Revenues will follow economic trend but expenditures are mandated.

[Anyway, I have always been extremely suspicious of government deficits/surpluses. Governments don't raise or spend money the way families or corporations do. A government balance sheet of assets and liabilities is unlike anything in the corporate world. No corporation has future liabilities like a government has.]

Argus is right. Let's wait and see before we judge.

Projections and everything can change on a dime.

Projected revenues changes. Not projected expenditures.

Why can't they allow income trusts as a first step at bringing our economy into the 21st century?

This is the heart of your rant. You're pissed off about the income trust decision. As I've said, suck it up. And in the future, diversify.

[geoffrey]

[Anyway, I have always been extremely suspicious of government deficits/surpluses. Governments don't raise or spend money the way families or corporations do. A government balance sheet of assets and liabilities is unlike anything in the corporate world. No corporation has future liabilities like a government has.]

That's right.

Argus is right. Let's wait and see before we judge.

I don't know August... so far taxes have increased by more than national inflation (less than Alberta inflation in some areas). Spending has too. How long can we wait?

Remember, Harper raised an income tax rate, despite collecting 10% more in income tax. That is a major problem, no?

Projections and everything can change on a dime.

Projected revenues changes. Not projected expenditures.

I disagree. Cut a budget, spending is down. Let the departments figure out how to change things around with less money. If you give them time, they'll convince you not to cut their budget. Harris slashed tons of spending extremely quickly.

So did Klein. It's hard for a hospital to cost you money when it's rubble. Klein merely picked the wrong things to demolish.

Why can't they allow income trusts as a first step at bringing our economy into the 21st century?

This is the heart of your rant. You're pissed off about the income trust decision. As I've said, suck it up. And in the future, diversify.

I didn't lose that much, actually like you said, I haven't lost anything in real terms yet. I'm pissed not at income trusts specifically, but the unwillingness of this government to confront the key issues hampering productivity in this country, what will crush our ability to really increase our standard of living over the next few decades.

If he zonked Income trusts but came up with a brilliant new method of taxation that encouraged R&D or something, I'd be ok with it. But instead, it was ONLY a tax increase from the corporate perspective. Nothing new for business from the CPC.