Toronto wants the Revenue from GST cuts

[scribblet]

Mayor Miller is now rattling his tin cup for more money from the feds. He wants the feds to abandon the plan to drop the GST another percentage point and, instead, to give the revenue generated by that to municipalities. He rejected the idea of increasing the city's revenues by collecting tolls from motorists as could be done under the City of Toronto Act

Does anyone else agree with this, should Toronto get money from a future GST cut? I realize Toronto has expenditures other cities don't have, but why should the rest of the country have to support them, especially from a GST cut.

[jdobbin]

Mayor Miller is now rattling his tin cup for more money from the feds. He wants the feds to abandon the plan to drop the GST another percentage point and, instead, to give the revenue generated by that to municipalities. He rejected the idea of increasing the city's revenues by collecting tolls from motorists as could be done under the City of Toronto Act

Does anyone else agree with this, should Toronto get money from a future GST cut? I realize Toronto has expenditures other cities don't have, but why should the rest of the country have to support them, especially from a GST cut.

Municipal revenue is a provincial responsibility. I think Toronto should ask Ontario for a sales tax cut or a sales tax of their own.

[geoffrey]

Typical of municpal leaders, our mayor in Calgary does the same thing. They don't want to be accountable for the city's horribly mixed up priorities and instead pass the buck to someone else.

If they need more money, raise taxes and let the citizens decide if it was justified. Don't get someone else to raise taxes for you.

[jdobbin]

Typical of municpal leaders, our mayor in Calgary does the same thing. They don't want to be accountable for the city's horribly mixed up priorities and instead pass the buck to someone else.

If they need more money, raise taxes and let the citizens decide if it was justified. Don't get someone else to raise taxes for you.

Provinces have stronger controls over what taxes the cities can raise than in the U.S.

Calgary's former mayor used to wail at the provincial government for more money. That mayor was Ralph Klein.

[geoffrey]

Typical of municpal leaders, our mayor in Calgary does the same thing. They don't want to be accountable for the city's horribly mixed up priorities and instead pass the buck to someone else.

If they need more money, raise taxes and let the citizens decide if it was justified. Don't get someone else to raise taxes for you.

Provinces have stronger controls over what taxes the cities can raise than in the U.S.

Calgary's former mayor used to wail at the provincial government for more money. That mayor was Ralph Klein.

Property tax rates are at the sole discretion of the city.

[jdobbin]

Property tax rates are at the sole discretion of the city.

Not exactly true. The province can cancel a property tax increase. Cities are creatures of the provinces. There is no law that states the province can't simply eliminate city councils altogether with no notice. They have the constitutional authority to do so. And if Calgary put property tax too high, the province could cancel the tax.

[Black Dog]

Typical of municpal leaders, our mayor in Calgary does the same thing. They don't want to be accountable for the city's horribly mixed up priorities and instead pass the buck to someone else.

Well, in Alberta at least, the spending cities are facing are a direct result of provincial cuts, downloading and dipping into municipal coffers.

If they need more money, raise taxes and let the citizens decide if it was justified. Don't get someone else to raise taxes for you.

He's not suggesting taxes be raised, but that the money from an existing tax be reallocated.

Property tax rates are at the sole discretion of the city.

It's also the only real means municipalities have to raise money.

[cybercoma]

Toronto should just charge $4 toll to every car that travels the 401 into the city.

That'd raise a heck of a lot of money real quick.

[jdobbin]

Toronto should just charge $4 toll to every car that travels the 401 into the city.

That'd raise a heck of a lot of money real quick.

The province can cancel that tax.

[August1991]

It is true that cities exist at the discretion of the provincial governments but politics being politics, that still leaves cities with alot of independence.

Montreal imposes a retail tax on gasoline and is thinking of imposing a toll on bridges to the island. New York City has a retail sales tax. If Toronto wants to, it could simply impose a 1% sales tax harmonized on the GST. The cost of collection would be negligible.

I have no doubt whatsoever that road taxes will become a major source of revenue for governments in the future. The technology now exists to register license plates and bill accordingly. I have driven on the 407 north of Toronto and then received and paid the bill all online.

It's apparent that government is exceptionally slow to adopt new technology and when it does, it invariably gets it wrong. The 407 is a private business.

Incidentally, the transit systems of most cities are subsidized in whole or in part by the provincial governments.

[jdobbin]

It is true that cities exist at the discretion of the provincial governments but politics being politics, that still leaves cities with alot of independence.

Montreal imposes a retail tax on gasoline and is thinking of imposing a toll on bridges to the island. New York City has a retail sales tax. If Toronto wants to, it could simply impose a 1% sales tax harmonized on the GST. The cost of collection would be negligible.

I have no doubt whatsoever that road taxes will become a major source of revenue for governments in the future. The technology now exists to register license plates and bill accordingly. I have driven on the 407 north of Toronto and then received and paid the bill all online.

It's apparent that government is exceptionally slow to adopt new technology and when it does, it invariably gets it wrong. The 407 is a private business.

Incidentally, the transit systems of most cities are subsidized in whole or in part by the provincial governments.

Toronto is not allowed to raise a sales tax. I don't think the province will allow them a toll road.

[August1991]

Toronto is not allowed to raise a sales tax. I don't think the province will allow them a toll road.

Out of curiousity, I googled and found this:

(June 13, 2006) Ignoring the concerns of the hospitality industry, the Ontario government has passed a new law that gives the City of Toronto the power to levy a new retail sales tax on alcohol sold in bars and restaurants.

Known as Bill 53, A Stronger City of Toronto for a Stronger Ontario Act, the law is expected to take effect by the end of the year, giving Toronto a number of new powers, including the authority to tax admission to places of amusement such as theatres and theme parks; beverage alcohol purchased at licensed establishments; brew-your-own beer and wine; and tobacco products.

Link

[hiti]

What happened to the gasoline tax that was going to cities for infrastructure under Paul Martin? Has Harpo kept it to try and keep his deficit from getting any bigger?

[jdobbin]

Toronto is not allowed to raise a sales tax. I don't think the province will allow them a toll road.

Out of curiousity, I googled and found this:

(June 13, 2006) Ignoring the concerns of the hospitality industry, the Ontario government has passed a new law that gives the City of Toronto the power to levy a new retail sales tax on alcohol sold in bars and restaurants.

Known as Bill 53, A Stronger City of Toronto for a Stronger Ontario Act, the law is expected to take effect by the end of the year, giving Toronto a number of new powers, including the authority to tax admission to places of amusement such as theatres and theme parks; beverage alcohol purchased at licensed establishments; brew-your-own beer and wine; and tobacco products.

Link

This is an entertainment tax and Winnipeg has one already. It is not equal to a sales tax nor does it take in all that much money compared to a general sales tax.

Most cities in Canada at one time had the power to tax alcohol. That right was taken away by the provinces.

Tax on hospitality is not the same thing as getting a cut of the sales tax of alcohol in general.

[Leafless]

Does anyone else agree with this, should Toronto get money from a future GST cut? I realize Toronto has expenditures other cities don't have, but why should the rest of the country have to support them, especially from a GST cut.

Did Quebec not start the ball rolling concerning this issue?

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...272&k=27794

[scribblet]

What happened to the gasoline tax that was going to cities for infrastructure under Paul Martin? Has Harpo kept it to try and keep his deficit from getting any bigger?

Who is Harpo, I've been told that, that kind of name calling is against the rules.

[Argus]

Mayor Miller is now rattling his tin cup for more money from the feds. He wants the feds to abandon the plan to drop the GST another percentage point and, instead, to give the revenue generated by that to municipalities.

Well, he'll have to get together with all the Toronto Tory MPs and see if he can lobby them, won't he.

[apollo19]

I actually think Toronto deserves some extra revenue from the Feds. Toronto has to put up with a larger share of immigrants, who typically are not too wealthy -- these people then use the social services the city provides, and it has much larger costs compared to places where international immigration is not large. On top of that, the city needs more money for transit and such -- Vancouver got funding for the RAV line, so why can't the TTC get more funding? That is one area where the CPC has done horribly -- managing relations with the cities. They smacked the TTC and Toronto in the face when they announced the transit security money with the TTC getting peanuts. I think its about time Toronto starts getting it's fair share.

[White Doors]

I actually think Toronto deserves some extra revenue from the Feds. Toronto has to put up with a larger share of immigrants, who typically are not too wealthy -- these people then use the social services the city provides, and it has much larger costs compared to places where international immigration is not large. On top of that, the city needs more money for transit and such -- Vancouver got funding for the RAV line, so why can't the TTC get more funding? That is one area where the CPC has done horribly -- managing relations with the cities. They smacked the TTC and Toronto in the face when they announced the transit security money with the TTC getting peanuts. I think its about time Toronto starts getting it's fair share.

They just announced almost one billion just over a year ago for the TTC.

open your eyes

[apollo19]

They just announced almost one billion just over a year ago for the TTC.

open your eyes

That was a one-time payment which wasn't even from the CPC. Why should Toronto have to go and beg to the province and feds every year? It has tasks which no other city in Canada has on any comparable level, yet it is expected to pay for these things without additional revenue? While I think that there is lots of wasteful spending and such in Toronto which could go a little towards making the problem better, that doesn't address the inequity of the system.

[watching&waiting]

Toronto eats up the vast majority of the provincial coffers and yes they already get more then any other city in Canada. The trouble is that Toronto thinks they deserve more and more. While they are the countries largest city and they are in the smallest area gives them very dense populations. The infastructure in and around Toronto cost Canadians at least 10 times more then any other city in Canada. In fact if you look at southern Ontario, you will find hald the population there. They all scream for more money for eveything. But it is a lot easier to put the infastructure in place in that small area then it is to connect the rest of Canada. I remeber before the 401 and we had to get from Galt ontario to Toronto using hwy 97 and the QE. That was 46 years ago. If you look now and see, you will find that most of the spending in this country already goes to Toronto. They had better look for other ways to raise cash, as the rest of Canada is now also there with their hands out.

[jdobbin]

Toronto eats up the vast majority of the provincial coffers and yes they already get more then any other city in Canada. The trouble is that Toronto thinks they deserve more and more. While they are the countries largest city and they are in the smallest area gives them very dense populations. The infastructure in and around Toronto cost Canadians at least 10 times more then any other city in Canada. In fact if you look at southern Ontario, you will find hald the population there. They all scream for more money for eveything. But it is a lot easier to put the infastructure in place in that small area then it is to connect the rest of Canada. I remeber before the 401 and we had to get from Galt ontario to Toronto using hwy 97 and the QE. That was 46 years ago. If you look now and see, you will find that most of the spending in this country already goes to Toronto. They had better look for other ways to raise cash, as the rest of Canada is now also there with their hands out.

I wonder how much money the province raises from Toronto in retrospect to how much it spends there.

[Dump Bees]

Maybe the Peoples Republic Of Toronto should learn to manage their finances a little bit better instead of the constant whining from Miller and company.

But of course why bother when you can blame Mike Harris and now Harper for all your problems?

[August1991]

This is an entertainment tax and Winnipeg has one already. It is not equal to a sales tax nor does it take in all that much money compared to a general sales tax.

Most cities in Canada at one time had the power to tax alcohol. That right was taken away by the provinces.

Tax on hospitality is not the same thing as getting a cut of the sales tax of alcohol in general.

Dobbin, I understand all this. I'm simply saying that if the Toronto municipal government wants more revenue, it has only to negotiate with the province to have the right to impose a tax.

The game in Canada now is to get another level to tax. IOW, the game is to tax voters in another jurisdiction.

I wonder how much money the province raises from Toronto in retrospect to how much it spends there.

Low-income trends among the population as a whole tend to mask an underlying divide that has opened up between the native-born and immigrants to Canada. The decline in earnings among successive groups of immigrants entering Canada through the 1980s and 1990s has been well documented (Bloom and Gunderson, 1991; Reitz, 2001; Green and Worswick, 2002; Frenette and Morissette, 2003; Aydemir and Skuterud, 2004).

Government of Canada

Well, he'll have to get together with all the Toronto Tory MPs and see if he can lobby them, won't he.

The Conservative government should represent all Canadians and simply because Toronto elected no Tory MPs is not a reason that Toronto should be ignored.

OTOH, if Toronto, having elected only Liberal and NDP MPs, then asks for more of other people's money, what is one to conclude?

Most socialist experiments fail because they run out of other people's money. Socialists will say that the experiment was never properly financed. lIt's another way of saying that socialists usually compare their imagined ideal society against the reality of capitalism.

[jdobbin]

Dobbin, I understand all this. I'm simply saying that if the Toronto municipal government wants more revenue, it has only to negotiate with the province to have the right to impose a tax.

The game in Canada now is to get another level to tax. IOW, the game is to tax voters in another jurisdiction.

My preference is for no property tax. I think what might be fairer is a combination of sales taxes and income taxes. I don't know how practical that is but I'd sure like to see a study on it.

Moreover, I think all school funding should come from provincial coffers rather than property tax.