POLL: Regarding Muslim population in Canada

[betsy]

If you wanted to turn them away at the border or something, ok.

Who knows, maybe they'll come up with something with immigration policies if things start getting "hot" around here. Like France will have to deal with the same violence every anniversary of the riots....and if the violence starts escalating from merely burning cars and trucks to actual killings....

[betsy]

But once they are Canadian, I think it's ridiculous to intern them based on their religious beliefs, in it's essence it's very disturbing that someone would even think of it.

Incest and pedophilia (latest was the description how a father raped a preschooler live in cyberspace...real-time), mother killing their own children, grandparents starving their grandchild to death.....they are all disturbing and ugly. But we need to discuss them.

I want to discuss this...no matter how ugly or disturbing or painful it is.

Just imagine how those leaders must've felt before they signed the documents that approved the internmenship. The leaders actually taking responsibility over the fates of the Japanese.

But something made them decide to do it.

The leader of a nation must protect its own citizens from anyone wanting to do them harm. Even from fellow-citizens. Leaders make difficult decisions.

[geoffrey]

Incest and pedophilia (latest was the description how a father raped a preschooler live in cyberspace...real-time), mother killing their own children, grandparents starving their grandchild to death.....they are all disturbing and ugly. But we need to discuss them.

I want to discuss this...no matter how ugly or disturbing or painful it is.

Just imagine how those leaders must've felt before they signed the documents that approved the internmenship. The leaders actually taking responsibility over the fates of the Japanese.

But something made them decide to do it.

The leader of a nation must protect its own citizens from anyone wanting to do them harm. Even from fellow-citizens. Leaders make difficult decisions.

Who protects the Muslims from their government?

The government is infinitately more powerful than any group of people. The government has an equal duty to Muslim citizens as well.

Arresting everyone seen near a Mosque is not acceptable. As being in garage doesn't make you a car, going to a mosque doesn't make you a terrorist.

I'm not a fan of our immigration process or multiculturalism really... but these people are Canadians and should not be interned at whim to protect Canadians.

You talk about not seizing their property. Nothing is more important than your personal freedom. I'd give up all my posessions in order to protect my personal freedom. Taking that away and leaving their house and car is just a silly point to attempt to distinguish yourself from the other great mass internment people.

[betsy]

Who protects the Muslims from their government?

The government is infinitately more powerful than any group of people. The government has an equal duty to Muslim citizens as well.

Arresting everyone seen near a Mosque is not acceptable. As being in garage doesn't make you a car, going to a mosque doesn't make you a terrorist.

I'm not a fan of our immigration process or multiculturalism really... but these people are Canadians and should not be interned at whim to protect Canadians.

You talk about not seizing their property. Nothing is more important than your personal freedom. I'd give up all my posessions in order to protect my personal freedom. Taking that away and leaving their house and car is just a silly point to attempt to distinguish yourself from the other great mass internment people.

The government protects the Muslim people.

Look, it is not as if what I'm discussing about means all Muslim people will be rounded up tomorrow if a bomb explodes on Parliament Hill today.

My scenario is that our nation had reached that point.... the same conditions that had made the internment of the Japanese happen.

[betsy]

The government is infinitately more powerful than any group of people. The government has an equal duty to Muslim citizens as well.

As I said, I had placed myself in the situation. Maybe it's just pure naivete on my part since one will really never know what will or what could transpire or how it really is unless one is actually experiencing it.

If it were Asians who were in the shoes of Muslims, will I feel secure living "outside" among you guys?

That there will be no non-Asians who had come to doubt...mistrust...suspect...or hate all Asians, who will not violate me as I walk down the street...on any given time...enjoying the same "freedom" as anyone would?

Will you guarantee that no relatives by those killed...or maimed...by the guilty Asians...will not vent their anger on me? Will you guarantee white supremacists and other bigot groups (the real mcCoys), or ordinary citizens with equally fundamentalist ideas will not seize the moment to inflame and incite others? Will you guarantee that others will not be inflamed or incited?

And then, how will you protect me from the bad Asians who will hide in my neighborhood? How will you stop them from using me as a shield?

Will I always be afraid everytime someone knocks on my door? Will my door end up getting kicked down one day while I am asleep or having dinner with my family?

Living outside...I have to be wary of the two factions. I am in the middle.

Will you guarantee my safety?

[betsy]

Arresting everyone seen near a Mosque is not acceptable. As being in garage doesn't make you a car, going to a mosque doesn't make you a terrorist.

Will you guarantee that everyone will still think that way? After numerous bombs and other terrorist acts are being done...and France-like intifada are being done more often in various cities and streets in our country? And our nation is declared under a state of emergency?

[betsy]

... but these people are Canadians and should not be interned at whim to protect Canadians.

I know. Again, still putting myself in the shoes of Muslims, and assuming Asians are the ones involved...

Practicalilty and drastic efforts to try to ensure my safety should also not be denied to me...at the whim of those who don't actually live the fear and insecurity I am living.

Do I really enjoy freedom if I live in fear? Am I supposed to feel everything is just normal...knowing or suspecting what you must be thinking or suspecting about me?

The choices are not palatable. But sometimes it has to come down to deciding what is and choosing the lesser evil.

[betsy]

You talk about not seizing their property. Nothing is more important than your personal freedom. I'd give up all my posessions in order to protect my personal freedom. Taking that away and leaving their house and car is just a silly point to attempt to distinguish yourself from the other great mass internment people.

How does it feel I wonder when you had lived in this country for more than two decades, thinking and believing you are one of them....and suddenly you are accosted on the street and beaten to a pulp...because of anger towards the terrorist acts of some of your people?

If one would survive that experience....it must change one's perception quite so...that feelings towards neighbors will never be the same again.

[betsy]

Taking that away and leaving their house and car is just a silly point to attempt to distinguish yourself from the other great mass internment people.

No. It distinguishes from the great injustice and mistakes that had happened before. It distinguishes from the wrong way interned people were treated.

Some would prefer internment like I do if faced with that kind of scenario...while others won't. So who prevails? Who's got more solid reasons? Do I say then, "oh they're more worried about the expenses of keeping me safe within walls than my actual safety."

We still wouldn't really know until we actually are in that moment. And we will not know until we, personally, live that moment.

[normanchateau]

It may seem laughable and ridiculous to say that internment does not have to mean the interned group are automatically enemies....and that it is more for their own safety.

When Dachau opened in 1933, internees and their relatives were told that they were there "for their own safety".

They lied. Or things got out of hand. Or it was poorly planned. Etc..,

That was then. We should've learned from those mistakes by now.

In this day and age, when the world is really keeping tabs on abuses against humanity....and most civilized nations are trying to comply, chances are, internment wouldn't be like that from the past. Most likely, independent observers will be around to monitor the conditions of, and treatment given to interns.

So what you're saying is that we have learned from the abuses of prisoners in Dachau that there are better ways, including the use of inndependent observers, to inter innocent victims.

[betsy]

It may seem laughable and ridiculous to say that internment does not have to mean the interned group are automatically enemies....and that it is more for their own safety.

When Dachau opened in 1933, internees and their relatives were told that they were there "for their own safety".

They lied. Or things got out of hand. Or it was poorly planned. Etc..,

That was then. We should've learned from those mistakes by now.

In this day and age, when the world is really keeping tabs on abuses against humanity....and most civilized nations are trying to comply, chances are, internment wouldn't be like that from the past. Most likely, independent observers will be around to monitor the conditions of, and treatment given to interns.

So what you're saying is that we have learned from the abuses of prisoners in Dachau that there are better ways, including the use of inndependent observers, to inter innocent victims.

First of all, where is Dachau? I answered assuming it is in Canada...since we are talking of a scenario that happens in Canada. Is it in Canada?

[betsy]

Will you guarantee my safety?

I just remebered the incident in Nepal. When terrorists kidnapped and killed Nepalese workers in Iraq...the Nepalese people reacted by going after the innocent Muslim civilians living in Nepal.

Who knows how people would react?

[normanchateau]

It may seem laughable and ridiculous to say that internment does not have to mean the interned group are automatically enemies....and that it is more for their own safety.

When Dachau opened in 1933, internees and their relatives were told that they were there "for their own safety".

They lied. Or things got out of hand. Or it was poorly planned. Etc..,

That was then. We should've learned from those mistakes by now.

In this day and age, when the world is really keeping tabs on abuses against humanity....and most civilized nations are trying to comply, chances are, internment wouldn't be like that from the past. Most likely, independent observers will be around to monitor the conditions of, and treatment given to interns.

So what you're saying is that we have learned from the abuses of prisoners in Dachau that there are better ways, including the use of inndependent observers, to inter innocent victims.

First of all, where is Dachau? I answered assuming it is in Canada...since we are talking of a scenario that happens in Canada. Is it in Canada?

Dachau is in Germany. There was a little internment camp there from 1933 to 1945. Some of the people in

that camp were innocent of any crime except belonging to the wrong religious group.

[betsy]

Dachau is in Germany. There was a little internment camp there from 1933 to 1945. Some of the people in

that camp were innocent of any crime except belonging to the wrong religious group.

Well that explained it! Germany! THAT period. Weren't they considered the terrorists of that time?

If you want comparison from that time.....well, think something similar to the internments of Germans in England.

[geoffrey]

As I said, I had placed myself in the situation. Maybe it's just pure naivete on my part since one will really never know what will or what could transpire or how it really is unless one is actually experiencing it.

If it were Asians who were in the shoes of Muslims, will I feel secure living "outside" among you guys?

That there will be no non-Asians who had come to doubt...mistrust...suspect...or hate all Asians, who will not violate me as I walk down the street...on any given time...enjoying the same "freedom" as anyone would?

Will you guarantee that no relatives by those killed...or maimed...by the guilty Asians...will not vent their anger on me? Will you guarantee white supremacists and other bigot groups (the real mcCoys), or ordinary citizens with equally fundamentalist ideas will not seize the moment to inflame and incite others? Will you guarantee that others will not be inflamed or incited?

And then, how will you protect me from the bad Asians who will hide in my neighborhood? How will you stop them from using me as a shield?

Will I always be afraid everytime someone knocks on my door? Will my door end up getting kicked down one day while I am asleep or having dinner with my family?

Living outside...I have to be wary of the two factions. I am in the middle.

Will you guarantee my safety?

How does locking up innocent people improve your safety at all?

You really have a major security issue in your head there. Buy a gun, shoot anyone that comes onto your property. But locking up all the people you think threaten you (completely baseless) is about the craziest thing I've heard. I think Kim Jong tries similar tactics.

How will I stop them from attacking you? Just like we stop everyone else from attacking you. The Police. You make it sound like we have a lawless free for fall. We don't.

An all-white society like you propose in a time of 'danger' isn't any safer for you. What happens when the economy tanks after your done caging up all the minorities? And the white people are coming through your door to take the last of your food? Lock them up too?

Your argument is a completely void of logic.

I just remebered the incident in Nepal. When terrorists kidnapped and killed Nepalese workers in Iraq...the Nepalese people reacted by going after the innocent Muslim civilians living in Nepal.

Who knows how people would react?

So now it's for their own safety?!?! Are you kidding? Let them make that choice then, I'm not going to tell someone they are being locked up indefinitely to protect themselves.

[betsy]

An all-white society like you propose in a time of 'danger' isn't any safer for you.

Corrections. Even if Asians are taken out of the equation, it still wouldn't be an all-white society. We're a multi-race and a multi-cultural society.

[betsy]

Your argument is a completely void of logic.

So why do you think Germans, Italians, and Japanese were interned?

Why did governments from England and Canada even considered such a thing?

What was their reason?

[betsy]

How will I stop them from attacking you? Just like we stop everyone else from attacking you. The Police. You make it sound like we have a lawless free for fall. We don't.

Of course we don't have a lawless free-for-all! Not now!

My scenario is based if we are in a state of emergency! If you are going to make your argument....then please, take it to the scenario that is being assumed. Otherwise, we are not on the same page at all!

So assuming the scenario given is already happening, that we are in a state of emergency....how can you be sure that some places or some incidents will not result in a lawless free-for-all?

Anyway, weren't you one of those argueing on the Caledonia thread how it had seemed to have degenerated into a lawless land? Weren't you one of those asking...what are the cops doing? And that's just about a land dispute!

So what more if it's a nationwide state of emergency....involving national secuirty?

[betsy]

You really have a major security issue in your head there. Buy a gun, shoot anyone that comes onto your property.

That's logical?

See, if people follow that advice....a lot of innocent Muslims will be begging the government to intern them.

Why, they could easily be shot at if they carry any "suspicious" packages.....

Darn, just what we need...trigger-happy sickos getting into the mix.

[betsy]

How does locking up innocent people improve your safety at all?

Same as how the governments of England and Canada had thought it improved theirs when they decided to intern Germans and Japanese.

[normanchateau]

How does locking up innocent people improve your safety at all?

Same as how the governments of England and Canada had thought it improved theirs when they decided to intern Germans and Japanese.

Repeating a mistake is not a very strong rationale.

[betsy]

How does locking up innocent people improve your safety at all?

Same as how the governments of England and Canada had thought it improved theirs when they decided to intern Germans and Japanese.

Repeating a mistake is not a very strong rationale.

Ahh....but mistakes can be corrected. We learn through mistakes. That was more than 50 years ago. Sincere apologies had been made since then, after realization of the injustice done to the Japanese.

And that was the mistake about the whole thing...the kind of treatment the Japanese got.

My mother in-law and her family were interned in England. And they were never abused or treated unkindly.

As far as I know...no mistake was done there.

And of course, as I've said before, there will most probably be independent observers. I expect...and can definitely count on the liberal thinkers to be zealous in their monitoring of situations.

[Ronniea]

According to Canada's 2011 National Household Survey, there were 1,053,945 Muslims in Canada, or about 3.2% of the population, making Islam the second largest religion in the country after Christianity. Canada will be much more of a country of immigrants two decades from now ... Specifically, numbers of Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs will rise. Canada population was 36.29 million in 2017 and will be approximate 38 Million in 2018. 

[PIK]

1,000,000 in 3 yrs and what countries will they come from??

[Jariax]

On 11/5/2006 at 9:40 AM, betsy said:

Keep in mind this is just a what-IF scenario.

On the surface, this looks like an absurd question. 

But war and terrorism can force people (and governments) into making very hard choices. For most of us in Canada, we've never really known wars, so the idea of making such choices seems preposterous. 

However, even if there were Muslim based terrorism, it shouldn't change the way we treat Muslim Canadians. 
If there was a situation where we were at war with a certain country (let's say Syria), then we might have a difficult conversation about dual-citizens and possibly even citizens originally from Syria.  

The only scenario where internment camps would be even discussed would be if there was a large number of terrorist attacks in Canada from home-grown terrorists, such that the government was unable to tell who could be a risk, and who couldn't. 

But even in that scenario, an internment camp would make so many more enemies, and in the long run, would likely make us less safe, as I guarantee that the acutal terrorists would use that as proof that infidels are the enemy of the Muslim people. 

So, after a deeper look, still an absurd question.