Bob Rae vs. Mike Harris

[SamStranger]

who was better and why?

On one hand- Bob Rae raised the most taxes since the depression.

On the other hand- Mike Harris was the first Premier in Ontario to ever cut Income Taxes.

[geoffrey]

That what it boils down to for me, one cut taxes, one raised them.

[M.Dancer]

The question should have been, which was worse..........

[Michael Hardner]

For me it boils down to - one killed people, one didn't.

And I mean 'boils' as in - BOIL WATER WARNING.

[Shakeyhands]

Harris had MAD skills in dealing with people!

[Charles Anthony]

For me it boils down to - one killed people, one didn't.

And I mean 'boils' as in - BOIL WATER WARNING.

Come on. Do you expect the Premier to go down into Walkerton and do a civil servant's job???

The problem in Walkerton was the direct fault of civil servants. Other than holding the civil servant's hand, there is nothing the Premier could have done to be responsible for what happened.

Or, is there an evil government conspiracy theory that I am missing?

[Michael Hardner]

Come on. Do you expect the Premier to go down into Walkerton and do a civil servant's job???

The problem in Walkerton was the direct fault of civil servants. Other than holding the civil servant's hand, there is nothing the Premier could have done to be responsible for what happened.

Or, is there an evil government conspiracy theory that I am missing?

Except that the inquiry found the government to hold some of the blame.

How can you believe complex conspiracy theories that blame government on one hand, and not accept the findings of a completely transparent process on the other ?

[Puppy Whirl]

That's not even a contest. Bob Rae was the worst thing to ever happen to this province...god help us if he becomes leader of the federal Liberals

[Remiel]

Mike Harris is just vile.

[Michael Hardner]

He must be livid, though, that his old rival is ascending on the national stage after he couldn't get arrested in the Alliance party. Oh well, it might just as easily be giving him some hope.

[Charles Anthony]

Except that the inquiry found the government to hold some of the blame.

Not good enough.

You said that "one killed people" and now I am asking you a simple question: How did Mike Harris kill people?

How can you believe complex conspiracy theories that blame government on one hand,

You are twisting things around.

You can not attribute any "government conspiracy theories" to me. If you think you can, please provide a quote.

and not accept the findings of a completely transparent process on the other ?

The findings do not identify Mike Harris as having killed people. Rather, YOU identified Mike Harris as having killed people.

If I am wrong, provide a quote (I repeat: a quote, not a link to a multi-page wild-goose chase) that proves me wrong.

I have a question for you: now that you find yourself resorting to the lame government-conspiracy-blame-game shtick, how does it feel?

Ths is sad The Walkerton deal is a perfect example of how our personification of "governement" gets the best of you without you even knowing it. The raging socialists can not admit that the problem with Walkerton's water was the direct result of civil servants not doing their jobs properly. That would be like blaming Ronald MacDonald because of budget cuts when someone working at the grill sprinkled arsenic on the burgers.

[Michael Hardner]

Not good enough.

You said that "one killed people" and now I am asking you a simple question: How did Mike Harris kill people?

How do you think ? He headed a government that was attached blame by the official inquiry.

You are twisting things around.

You can not attribute any "government conspiracy theories" to me. If you think you can, please provide a quote.

I refer to our friendly discussions on 9/11. Looking back on it, though, it seems to me that you might have been playing devil's advocate in those discussions.

I have a question for you: now that you find yourself resorting to the lame government-conspiracy-blame-game shtick, how does it feel?

Fine.

Ths is sad The Walkerton deal is a perfect example of how our personification of "governement" gets the best of you without you even knowing it. The raging socialists can not admit that the problem with Walkerton's water was the direct result of civil servants not doing their jobs properly. That would be like blaming Ronald MacDonald because of budget cuts when someone working at the grill sprinkled arsenic on the burgers.

I can certainly admit that. But if someone was poisoned at McDonald's, you can bet that they would have grounds to sue the company.

The ultimate answer to the question the thread poses is: who still has a political career and who doesn't ?

[Charles Anthony]

The ultimate answer to the question the thread poses is: who still has a political career and who doesn't ?

No it does not. That is your bias.

[Michael Hardner]

No it does not. That is your bias.

Well, there is a startling difference in the prospects of the two men. I say that that is a reflection of how the public views them, ie. how their legacy is seen.

What do you think the reason is ?

[Charles Anthony]

I think political careers depend on a lot more things.

What do you think the reason is ?

I would say it is also reflects who:

- has nothing better to do

- needs to feel important

- is more entertaining

- is willing to spend more time away from their family

among many other things.

[Michael Hardner]

CA:

I would say it is also reflects who:

- has nothing better to do

How many things are 'better' to do than leading the country ?

- needs to feel important

Every politician is like that.

- is more entertaining

True.

- is willing to spend more time away from their family

among many other things.

It's hard to guage a public figure's committment to family. Harris divorced his wife didn't he ?

[Charles Anthony]

How many things are 'better' to do than leading the country ?

In the case of Bob Rae, the answer is NOT leading the country.

[Figleaf]

Rae was better. He was incompetent, but not malevolent.

[daniel]

One created that cash cow, Hwy 407, but wasn't invited to the grand opening.

The other was at the grand opening and soon gave away control of it along with all the potential income.

One introduced equal pay for work of equal value.

The other one cancelled it.

One introduced the study for early childhood education.

The other cut funding to education and told parents to dump their kids on their neighbours and elderly parents.

One introduced JobsOntario to help train out-of-work people to get back into the workforce.

The other introduced the welfare snitch line and historically failed workfare programs into Ontario.

One saved Algoma and DeHavilland.

The other couldn't have cared less, but showed up for the unveiling of the Global Express, anyways.

One put a ban on exporting municipal waste out of municipal boundaries.

The other cancelled the ban, which set in place the garbage fiasco of Kirkland Lake, Michigan, and now Greenlane. The cancellation set aggressive recycling and waste management programs back eight years.

One was studying the 35hr work week.

The other introduced the 60hr work week.

One inherited a recession and set forth programs and spending to get Ontario back out.

The other inherited an economic boom but lost major revenue due to tax cuts so ended up privatizing and wholesale selling of crown property which in turn resulted in further reduction in revenue.

One tried to control government spending by having government employees one day a month without pay while maintaining their job security.

The other said they were going the way of the hula-hoop and laid them off.

One answered, on being asked about honest politicians, reflecting public perception "C'mon, give me a break."

The other stated he was "the only honest politician around here."

[geoffrey]

One introduced equal pay for work of equal value.

The other one cancelled it.

Equally valued work is obviously equally paid. An employer shows their intrepretation of value by how much you get paid. Anything else is BS.

One introduced the study for early childhood education.

The other cut funding to education and told parents to dump their kids on their neighbours and elderly parents.

Or people should deal with their own problems. Do you think the government should tie your shoes in the morning too?

One introduced JobsOntario to help train out-of-work people to get back into the workforce.

The other introduced the welfare snitch line and historically failed workfare programs into Ontario.

You think the welfare snitch line was bad??

One saved Algoma and DeHavilland.

The other couldn't have cared less, but showed up for the unveiling of the Global Express, anyways.

Mmm... corporate welfare. The favourite thing of socialist parties.

One put a ban on exporting municipal waste out of municipal boundaries.

The other cancelled the ban, which set in place the garbage fiasco of Kirkland Lake, Michigan, and now Greenlane. The cancellation set aggressive recycling and waste management programs back eight years.

Because they weren't economically viable.

One was studying the 35hr work week.

The other introduced the 60hr work week.

Are you that lazy? Sheesh.

One inherited a recession and set forth programs and spending to get Ontario back out.

The other inherited an economic boom but lost major revenue due to tax cuts so ended up privatizing and wholesale selling of crown property which in turn resulted in further reduction in revenue.

Privatization... hmm... what out of privatization has hurt anyone?

One tried to control government spending by having government employees one day a month without pay while maintaining their job security.

The other said they were going the way of the hula-hoop and laid them off.

Good, there are so many useless civil servants. You could cut the civil service in half before noticing any real problems.

One answered, on being asked about honest politicians, reflecting public perception "C'mon, give me a break."

The other stated he was "the only honest politician around here."

Someone that's honest about their failures is still a failure.

[daniel]

deleted due to formats.

[daniel]

One introduced equal pay for work of equal value.

The other one cancelled it.

Equally valued work is obviously equally paid. An employer shows their intrepretation of value by how much you get paid. Anything else is BS.

You should have a good argument with BBM who is in favour of this. Women have traditionally made only 60% (maybe more now) of what men make for the same work position. Anything else is...

One introduced the study for early childhood education.

The other cut funding to education and told parents to dump their kids on their neighbours and elderly parents.

Or people should deal with their own problems. Do you think the government should tie your shoes in the morning too?

That's really being in touch with the populace isn't it? Let them eat cake. So you think education is a bad thing?

One introduced JobsOntario to help train out-of-work people to get back into the workforce.

The other introduced the welfare snitch line and historically failed workfare programs into Ontario.

You think the welfare snitch line was bad??

For a government who promised less government, they've been the most intrusive in Ontario history. That's comparable to Communist China during the Cultural Revolution. You don’t think that's bad? I suppose you didn’t think anything was wrong with GWBush wiretapping US citizens.

One saved Algoma and DeHavilland.

The other couldn't have cared less, but showed up for the unveiling of the Global Express, anyways.

Mmm... corporate welfare. The favourite thing of socialist parties.

And what has conservative governments done about corporate welfare? This was also Harris' platform - but another broken promise. . Interesting how Harper’s government cut $2billion out of budgets but left the oil subsidies alone. Guess it’s not called corporate welfare when you receive it, huh?

One put a ban on exporting municipal waste out of municipal boundaries.

The other cancelled the ban, which set in place the garbage fiasco of Kirkland Lake, Michigan, and now Greenlane. The cancellation set aggressive recycling and waste management programs back eight years.

Because they weren't economically viable.

Lame excuse. Where there's a will, there's a way. Industries from automotive to food have always resisted any type of restriction and regulation until it's been legislated. Then, surprise, surprise, it can be done.

One was studying the 35hr work week.

The other introduced the 60hr work week.

Are you that lazy? Sheesh.

60hrs(??) In the words of Francois Mitterand "Is he for real?" LOL. A response just for the sake of a response. No substance.

One inherited a recession and set forth programs and spending to get Ontario back out.

The other inherited an economic boom but lost major revenue due to tax cuts so ended up privatizing and wholesale selling of crown property which in turn resulted in further reduction in revenue.

Privatization... hmm... what out of privatization has hurt anyone?

407, health insurance, auto insurance, Air Canada, airport security, etc...

Good, there are so many useless civil servants. You could cut the civil service in half before noticing any real problems.

That's really being in touch with the populace isn't it? Let them eat cake. A response just for the sake of a response. No substance. You think nurses are useless, huh? Harris later tried to hire some back and then lied with a claim his government increased health care spending.

Harris never did admit to his failures. He just let his people take the blame. That's Harris all over. You'll never hear an "I take full responsibility" speech out of him.

[geoffrey]

You should have a good argument with BBM who is in favour of this. Women have traditionally made only 60% (maybe more now) of what men make for the same work position. Anything else is...

Then obviously employers thought they weren't as valuable. Why? Maybe you should address the root causes instead of just putting a bandaid on the situation.

One of the foundations of all my political beliefs, especially social issues like this... you can never force someone to be tolerant.

That's really being in touch with the populace isn't it? Let them eat cake. So you think education is a bad thing?

The populace needs to stand on their own two feet once in awhile. Education is a great thing, not neccessary for a two year old. That's what parents are for, a government employee is no substitute for mom or dad, ever.

For a government who promised less government, they've been the most intrusive in Ontario history. That's comparable to Communist China during the Cultural Revolution. You don’t think that's bad? I suppose you didn’t think anything was wrong with GWBush wiretapping US citizens.

Excuse me? If someone is stealing my tax dollars to sit on their ass or to work and get a nice little second cheque, I'm going to want to snitch on them.

You'll find very little sympathy from me or most other taxpayers for welfare cheaters.

And what has conservative governments done about corporate welfare? This was also Harris' platform - but another broken promise. . Interesting how Harper’s government cut $2billion out of budgets but left the oil subsidies alone. Guess it’s not called corporate welfare when you receive it, huh?

Those oil subsidies are encourages those companies to stay around and provide the jobs to Ontario as you folks are losing them fast. Without Alberta, Ontario is would not be far from having an unemployment situation on their hands. Embrace the oil industry, it'll give jobs to all the auto-workers once the big 3 realise how weak corporate welfare has made them.

Being said, I'm somewhat opposed to tax incentives to oil companies myself. Royalty exceptions ok, tax breaks? Not so much.

Lame excuse. Where there's a will, there's a way. Industries from automotive to food have always resisted any type of restriction and regulation until it's been legislated. Then, surprise, surprise, it can be done.

Any wonder why automotive and food are heavily subsidized industries?

60hrs(??) In the words of Francois Mitterand "Is he for real?" LOL. A response just for the sake of a response. No substance.

Is that hard to believe? Apparently I'm missing out on something back East. 35 sounds really lazy to me. I work that on top of full time university right now and still have time to post here so it must not be much a burden.

407, health insurance, auto insurance, Air Canada, airport security, etc...

Auto insurance is one area where the realities of privatisation I question. The rest, I'm ok with.

That's really being in touch with the populace isn't it? Let them eat cake. A response just for the sake of a response. No substance. You think nurses are useless, huh? Harris later tried to hire some back and then lied with a claim his government increased health care spending.

Harris never did admit to his failures. He just let his people take the blame. That's Harris all over. You'll never hear an "I take full responsibility" speech out of him.

Some nurses are quite useless. Unions have kept some really useless people around... it's unfortunate for those hard working nurses and other civil servants that actual want to progress. Think of the city worker example, you have one to do the work, and six more to watch. It applies in all areas of government, there is so much fat to be trimmed from that pig.

[Charles Anthony]

60hrs(??) In the words of Francois Mitterand "Is he for real?" LOL. A response just for the sake of a response. No substance.

Is that hard to believe? Apparently I'm missing out on something back East. 35 sounds really lazy to me. I work that on top of full time university right now and still have time to post here so it must not be much a burden.

Reducing the work week..... The raging socialists want to eat their cake and they want to keep their cake... I love it!

Froncois Mitterand: the authority!

If people are unemployed, raise miminum wage to increase wages -- and create unemployment.

If people are working, outlaw working --- and create unemployment.

Great! Just great!

[geoffrey]

Reducing the work week..... The raging socialists want to eat their cake and they want to keep their cake... I love it!

Froncois Mitterand: the authority!

If people are unemployed, raise miminum wage to increase wages -- and create unemployment.

If people are working, outlaw working --- and create unemployment.

Great! Just great!

I don't believe in a legislated workweek anywhere. Work as much as you can, if you want to work less, and your employer is ok with that, sure. But this ridiculous 35 hour work week concept? Sounds like people just want to be lazy.