Figleaf Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 I'll bet you can guess how I voted! Quote
Riverwind Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 For better or for worse spirtuality is a fundemental part of human existance. You could try to argue that it is nothing more than crossed wires in the human brain but it still exists. Even people who claim to be atheists live in a world shaped by it. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
Topaz Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 that's a interesting question and I suppose most people would say there is a God and so your question is stupid. I believe in a higher power, everyone calls it by different names. I don't think humans could survive IF it was totally proven there was no God. I think most people would become depressed and go into mourning. IF you believe there is no God, then there's is no evil or devil??? Just stop and think how many people have died in the name of God or for their God, IF there was no God. The subject does starts fights and I hope for the sake of debate no one gets out of control and we all learn something from this debate. Again, for most people there is a GOD! Quote
gc1765 Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 I would say Yes because of the Butterfly Effect ... If there was no religion, there is a good chance I would not be alive today. (Though I could be someone else? but that would raise a lot more questions so I won't go into that). Quote Almost three thousand people died needlessly and tragically at the World Trade Center on September 11; ten thousand Africans die needlessly and tragically every single day-and have died every single day since September 11-of AIDS, TB, and malaria. We need to keep September 11 in perspective, especially because the ten thousand daily deaths are preventable. - Jeffrey Sachs (from his book "The End of Poverty")
gc1765 Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 that's a interesting question and I suppose most people would say there is a God and so your question is stupid. The question is about religion. Even if you assume that God exists, religion still must have been invented or at least 'passed down'. If the bible, Quran etc. had never been written (and no oral history) there would be no religion the way we know it today. I believe in a higher power, everyone calls it by different names. I don't think humans could survive IF it was totally proven there was no God. I think most people would become depressed and go into mourning. I'm not depressed that there's no God. A lot of others feel the same way. IF you believe there is no God, then there's is no evil or devil??? Is there evil? Yes. A devil? No. Quote Almost three thousand people died needlessly and tragically at the World Trade Center on September 11; ten thousand Africans die needlessly and tragically every single day-and have died every single day since September 11-of AIDS, TB, and malaria. We need to keep September 11 in perspective, especially because the ten thousand daily deaths are preventable. - Jeffrey Sachs (from his book "The End of Poverty")
Figleaf Posted November 2, 2006 Author Report Posted November 2, 2006 that's a interesting question and I suppose most people would say there is a God and so your question is stupid. ... Actually, I think my question could capture the idea of God never having 'revealed' itself. Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 Yeah who needs religion...what have religious people ever done for mankind....besides abolishing slavery, child labour, public hospitals, the Red Cross.......who's to say that without a judaeo Christian ethos, there would be no declaration of Human Rights? .....I mean....it was just coincidence that atheists didn't get around to do those things first....... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Figleaf Posted November 2, 2006 Author Report Posted November 2, 2006 Yeah who needs religion...what have religious people ever done for mankind....besides abolishing slavery, child labour, public hospitals, the Red Cross.......who's to say that without a judaeo Christian ethos, there would be no declaration of Human Rights?.....I mean....it was just coincidence that atheists didn't get around to do those things first....... There weren't hardly any atheists around at those times to accomplish those things. It fell to the better sorts of religious people by default. I don't think you have amply demonstrated that it was the religion that caused those choices, nor certainly that agnosticism or atheism would have failed to reach such conclusions. Meanwhile we do know that religion has been used to justify atrocities whereas atheism or agnosticism have not. Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 Atheism had not? Ever hear of Stalin? Mao? I didn't say religion casued those choices.....I said religious people..... .......anyway, I have a brilliant book I will recommend. http://www.randomhouse.com/features/cahill/desire.html ......It has only one brief page that leaves me cold, but all in all an in depth analysis of Judaism's greatest gift to the world, Christianity. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Figleaf Posted November 2, 2006 Author Report Posted November 2, 2006 Atheism had not?Ever hear of Stalin? Mao? Of course I've heard of them. Clearly you have little grasp of their histories. Atheism didn't lead to their crimes; totalitarian communist ideology (combined with nasty dispositions) did that. Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 Communism is an atheist ideaology. The "scientific" approach of the dictatorship of the proletariat led them to make the decision to starve the kulacks.......Would a christian theology allow the erradication of the individual for the benefit of the state? I think not. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Leafless Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 that's a interesting question and I suppose most people would say there is a God and so your question is stupid. ... Actually, I think my question could capture the idea of God never having 'revealed' itself. I don't think you know what your talking about. The only reason atheist flourish in our free and democratic society is because you are protected under an evolved advanced Christian society in our part of the world. Do you actually think society would have evolved in the relative peaceful, organized manner it did without religion? You cannot possibly answer that question because you have absolutely no proof. Even relating to morally depressed Russia where alcoholism is a huge problem, Russia is still greatly influenced from other countries of the world, concerning all levels of advancement relating to the influence of religion in those other countries. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...i?artid=1534076 Quote
Figleaf Posted November 2, 2006 Author Report Posted November 2, 2006 Communism is an atheist ideaology. 1. Atheism didn't lead to their crimes; totalitarian communist ideology (combined with nasty dispositions) did that. 2. Athiesm is an element of communism. Communism is not about atheism. 3. Plenty of atheists are not communists. 4. Only someone ignorant of even a smattering of moral and political philosophy could fail to appreciate that communism and athiesm are not at all the same thing. Or, perhaps someone who cares more for supporting a particular position than he cares for facts, reason, or truth. Would a christian theology allow the erradication of the individual for the benefit of the state? Absolutely, except it would be for God or the church rather than the state. Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 4. Only someone ignorant of even a smattering of moral and political philosophy could fail to appreciate that communism and athiesm are not at all the same thing. Or, perhaps someone who cares more for supporting a particular position than he cares for facts, reason, or truth. Who besides yourself, have implied there are, or are not the same thing? I don't think all atheists are communists....but pretty much all Stalinists are atheists..... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Figleaf Posted November 2, 2006 Author Report Posted November 2, 2006 The only reason atheist flourish in our free and democratic society is because you are protected under an evolved advanced Christian society in our part of the world. It's Enlightenment elevation of reason that lead there, NOT Christianity. Christianity resisted every step of the way. If it weren't for the ascendancy of reason, Christians would still be burning witches, dying from flus, living in squalor, and killing eachother over the Immaculate conception. Please learn more about history before wasting more of our time. Do you actually think society would have evolved in the relative peaceful, organized manner it did without religion? Yes. Without religion's deceptions, diversions and excuses for inhuman cruelty we'd have progressed much more quickly. Quote
Remiel Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 I think that perhaps a more interesting and relevant (and logical) question would be, " If you could have changed people so that could never have invented religion, would you have done it? " Religion could be called an inevitable invention in any species capable of creating one. Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 Christianity resisted every step of the way. If it weren't for the ascendancy of reason, Christians would still be burning witches, dying from flus, living in squalor, and killing eachother over the Immaculate conception. Oh my gosh....who do you think put an end to the inquisitions? Secular Humanists? Are you sure that the great achievements in medicine are the work of atheists? Sorry.....all you have on that is your faith....... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Figleaf Posted November 2, 2006 Author Report Posted November 2, 2006 Christianity resisted every step of the way. If it weren't for the ascendancy of reason, Christians would still be burning witches, dying from flus, living in squalor, and killing eachother over the Immaculate conception. Oh my gosh....who do you think put an end to the inquisitions? Have they ended? Are you sure that the great achievements in medicine are the work of atheists? You're deliberately distorting my comments, probably because you sense you're on the losing side on this matter. Please feel free to get back to me if you're interested in a sensible discussion. Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 Christianity resisted every step of the way. If it weren't for the ascendancy of reason, Christians would still be burning witches, dying from flus, living in squalor, and killing eachother over the Immaculate conception. Oh my gosh....who do you think put an end to the inquisitions? Have they ended? Are you sure that the great achievements in medicine are the work of atheists? You're deliberately distorting my comments, probably because you sense you're on the losing side on this matter. Please feel free to get back to me if you're interested in a sensible discussion. Wait...didn't you say........ If it weren't for the ascendancy of reason, Christians would still be burning witches, dying from flus... My apologies, I didn't realize I was engaged in a discussion with a self important pillock....tell you what....Imagine me bending over awaiting your kiss......... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Figleaf Posted November 2, 2006 Author Report Posted November 2, 2006 Wait...didn't you say........If it weren't for the ascendancy of reason, Christians would still be burning witches, dying from flus... Yes. And your challenge was a total non-sequitur ... I never asserted 'the work of atheists' as the point. I said the ascendancy of reason. Your comment distorted mine. My apologies, Accepted. I didn't realize I was engaged in a discussion with a .... Gee, I'm so sorry I didn't let you get away with a slippery rhetorical ploy. FYI, every discussion you're in includes a self-important pillock. Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 Wait...didn't you say........ If it weren't for the ascendancy of reason, Christians would still be burning witches, dying from flus... Yes. And your challenge was a total non-sequitur ... I never asserted 'the work of atheists' as the point. I said the ascendancy of reason. Your comment distorted mine. My apologies, Accepted. I didn't realize I was engaged in a discussion with a .... Gee, I'm so sorry I didn't le you get away with a slippery rhetorical ploy. FYI, every discussion you're in includes a self-important pillock. Right, if it wasn't for reason, christians would ........how could I have gotten that wrong? It must have been because the "ascendancy of reason" was taking place within the Christians....but wait....if it wasn't for the Christians, the christains would still be burning witches.......... No, chump, my ass is still available for kissing. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Figleaf Posted November 2, 2006 Author Report Posted November 2, 2006 Right, if it wasn't for reason, christians would ........how could I have gotten that wrong? As I already noted, probably because you sense you're on the losing side on this matter. ... my ass is still available for kissing. 'Kissing' isn't the k-word your ass needs. Quote
Drea Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 It is only because of our secular society that we are not living in a theocracy. America was founded on the basis of "no particular religion" by the Freemasons. Hence human rights, hence freedom of/from religion. The only condition is that a freemason (and by proxy the president) believe in "a" god. Any god -- any higher power. Christianity played no part in building this society. And that is a very good thing! Look up the ancient history of freemasonry.... you'll see. Quote ...jealous much? Booga Booga! Hee Hee Hee
jefferiah Posted November 2, 2006 Report Posted November 2, 2006 I am not a masonry fan. Have you read any of their writings? The works of Albert Pike? The religious tolerance of the masons is a sham. Quote "Governing a great nation is like cooking a small fish - too much handling will spoil it." Lao Tzu
DarkAngel_ Posted November 3, 2006 Report Posted November 3, 2006 For better or for worse spirtuality is a fundemental part of human existance. You could try to argue that it is nothing more than crossed wires in the human brain but it still exists. Even people who claim to be atheists live in a world shaped by it. i'm athest, and has my mountain grown by gods? no i see no things that gods are as me. i am no god, but 'we' shape our selves and what we do with 'things' of the world. the world changes on it's own. my existance is unknown and if you can explain it, please do, but i have no eye's for the blind, and even if i did they would not see like anyone else, so if 'to you' we must feel like more then men, is that not greedy? my spirit is happy to feast on my eye's but i shall not let it blind me, because i can explain the marvels and show my spirit so that it may sit an listen. is that spirtuality? Quote men of freedom walk with guns in broad daylight, and as the weak are killed freedom becomes nothing but a dream...
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