Anger in Holland over 'apartheid' Islamic hospital

[betsy]

Exactly.

That's why I am wondering how Brad can confidently say that just because he works for Muslims or had been around Muslims in Canada...that that kind of abuse is not happening to some hapless Muslim women in Canada?

My take was that the abuse is not above what is to be expected as the "norm"......

Of course Im not suggesting that in some Islamic countries women arent oppressed, they clearly are

Yes, in Muslim countries, of course they'll follow as their culture and religion dictates.

It is the bringing of that culture and religious belief into our society that is the problem.

The hospital...all-Muslim, with all its cultural and religious belief...will be nothing more than let's say....like an embassy? Anyone in there is immune from the laws of Canada?

So what's next? The right to practice their sharia law in Muslim communities?

You give an inch...that's the start!

Since Brad had given the gays as an example, let's use them as an example.

Before, they only wanted to be free to do as they please...the freedom to practice sodomy... inside their homes.

Then they wanted to have the same protection as everyone else. Which is fine.

Then they wanted to become recognized as an alternative lifestyle....to be included in school curriculums.

Then they proposed the gag law. You can't say boo.

Then they wanted SSM.

Then they want the churches to recognize homosexuality as normal.

Then they wanted the churches to sanction SSM.

Etc...

[M.Dancer]

It is the bringing of that culture and religious belief into our society that is the problem.

To whom? Athiests? Bigots?

The hospital...all-Muslim, with all its cultural and religious belief...will be nothing more than let's say....like an embassy? Anyone in there is immune from the laws of Canada?

Wow....nothing like fearing the worst regardless of reality.....why not for instrance say....a christian camp....will be nothing more than let's say....like an embassy? Anyone in there is immune from the laws of Canada?

Please try to confine yourself to reality....first off, there are no muslim hospitals in canada nor are there any plans for them.

You give an inch...that's the start!

Thin wedge fallacy....

Then they proposed the gag law. You can't say boo.

Then they wanted SSM.

Then they want the churches to recognize homosexuality as normal.

Then they wanted the churches to sanction SSM.

Etc...

Does someone feed you this crap or do you make it up?

[betsy]

I can only assume from this comment that you have absolutly no contact with Muslim people in Canada. I do work for many Muslim families and the women are not oppressed. In fact in most cases the women made a lot of the decisions and seemed to exercise the same power over their husbands that white women do. Of course Im not suggesting that in some Islamic countries women arent oppressed, they clearly are. But most of these countries dont have freedoms in general so we wouldnt even be having this debate. We are discussing this in a western democracy context and thats important to remember. All Muslim people I have ever met here in Canada are here because they like this country and they like it because of the freedoms we have here. I cant speak for the Netherlands but I would say in Canada there would be amost no worries of "extremists" forcing all Muslims to use these hospitals against there will. I get this from actually knowing Muslims and talking to them. I get the impression that a lot of scared right wingers in this forum have never met any Muslims and would refuse to associate with anyone who is Muslim.

Well your assessment of me is wrong...for I do have had contacts with Muslim people. And we still maintain a sort of friendship with a couple who live quite far from us.

Perhaps the reason I use the phrase "intimidation of all Muslims...." is the fact that somebody was already trying to bring in sharia law into Canada.

True there is no such hospital in Canada....yet. Happenings in Europe is being mirrored elsewhere...so it's only natural to assume that if that hospital is approved and got going....Canada wouldn't be that far behind.

If Liberals or NDP are heading the country, then it's almost a surety.

[bradco]

I can only assume from this comment that you have absolutly no contact with Muslim people in Canada. I do work for many Muslim families and the women are not oppressed. In fact in most cases the women made a lot of the decisions and seemed to exercise the same power over their husbands that white women do. Of course Im not suggesting that in some Islamic countries women arent oppressed, they clearly are. But most of these countries dont have freedoms in general so we wouldnt even be having this debate. We are discussing this in a western democracy context and thats important to remember. All Muslim people I have ever met here in Canada are here because they like this country and they like it because of the freedoms we have here. I cant speak for the Netherlands but I would say in Canada there would be amost no worries of "extremists" forcing all Muslims to use these hospitals against there will. I get this from actually knowing Muslims and talking to them. I get the impression that a lot of scared right wingers in this forum have never met any Muslims and would refuse to associate with anyone who is Muslim.

Well your assessment of me is wrong...for I do have had contacts with Muslim people. And we still maintain a sort of friendship with a couple who live quite far from us.

Perhaps the reason I use the phrase "intimidation of all Muslims...." is the fact that somebody was already trying to bring in sharia law into Canada.

True there is no such hospital in Canada....yet. Happenings in Europe is being mirrored elsewhere...so it's only natural to assume that if that hospital is approved and got going....Canada wouldn't be that far behind.

If Liberals or NDP are heading the country, then it's almost a surety.

You still have shown no realistic consequences that would come from having these hospitals if they abide by simple and reasonable rules that I outlined earlier in this thread. Bringing in sharia law is a separate issue.

As far as your opinion that gays are trying to take a mile because we gave them an inch... up to the point they are trying to force churches to marry them who dont want to their actions are completely reasonable and therefore acceptable. There are few groups that actually believe that all churches should be forced to marry gays. Of course there will be some..... the gay community isnt immune from people who argue for restricting rights. The fact that anyone elses rights were never restricted by the gay community kind of blows apart your theory that the Muslim community will slowly implement religous law into Canadian society.

[JerrySeinfeld]

to whom? racists? bigots?

actually - to women and gays.

[scribblet]

Have you thought about the women, at least? We know how women are treated in Muslim countries.

You bet they'll have no say at all about whether they wish to get treated in a quality facility or this hospital from the dark ages. What about children?

That is a major concern, or should be.

IMO Europe is in last throes as a democratic western societyas there is no doubt that Europe is going through a major demographic and cultural change and is undergoing profound changes to the old ways and culture.

http://www.meforum.org/article/696 is a good article on this.

Eurabia - Europe's Future?

* Danish version of this item

Bat Ye'or, a historian, has published groundbreaking works on minorities and "dhimmitude" (their inferior status) under Islam, including Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide (2002). Her latest book, Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis (Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 2005), argues that European governments, especially the French, have developed foreign policies aimed at winning the favor of Middle Eastern regimes and appeasing the growing militant Islamic minorities in their midst. Bat Ye'or addressed the Middle East Forum in New York on February 7, 2005.

Europe is undergoing two profound changes. The first is the weakening of Christianity. The second is demographic decline. Presently, across Europe, there are only two-thirds the number of children born necessary to sustain the population. The consequent drop in population has mostly been made good by immigration of Muslims. The fast-growing Muslim population is generally not integrated into the host societies nor politically acculturated to its norms. To the contrary, radical Islamic movements are gaining in strength among these émigré populations. In addition, European governments, especially the French, have developed foreign policies aimed at winning the favor of Middle Eastern regimes.

The question arises: is this a temporary aberration or is Europe on the road to losing its historic identity? The latter: Europe is rapidly being transformed into "Eurabia," a cultural and political appendage of the Arab/Muslim world that is fundamentally anti-Christian, anti-Semitic, anti-Western and anti-American.

[betsy]

You still have shown no realistic consequences that would come from having these hospitals if they abide by simple and reasonable rules that I outlined earlier in this thread.

The latest realistic consequence I'd given you was actually an example of how quite "simple and reasonable rules" can easily be challenged and altered.

Rules as simple and reasonable as....driving a taxi cab?

[betsy]

Bringing in sharia law is a separate issue.

And why is it a separate issue? Can you please explain?

[betsy]

As far as your opinion that gays are trying to take a mile because we gave them an inch... up to the point they are trying to force churches to marry them who dont want to their actions are completely reasonable and therefore acceptable.

Not to mention of course, gay priests who had married their male partners...and still insisting on remaining as priests. Challenging and forcing the church to change its doctrines...to accomodate them.

[betsy]

The fact that anyone elses rights were never restricted by the gay community kind of blows apart your theory that the Muslim community will slowly implement religous law into Canadian society.

What about the gag law? Isn't that a restriction of people's right to freedom of speech and opinion?

And COINCIDENTALLY....isn't freedom of speech and opinion the very thing we've been debating in several threads over sometime now, related to Muslims....happening all over the world?

[jbg]

This is prejudice and racism pure and simple. Certain European nations like this one are going to have more and more influence foisted upon them by the minority Muslims until the host nation will no longer be recognized.

I sure hope they're not vouchering for moneys under the Netherlands' health plan.

[M.Dancer]

Are any of the "oh my god" crowd as upset about Roman Catholic Hospitals when they share their morality on those who need care?

[jbg]

Are any of the "oh my god" crowd as upset about Roman Catholic Hospitals when they share their morality on those who need care?

Will the Muslim hospitals care for Jews on an impartial basis? For Christians? Or will they do whole-head lobotomies?

[sharkman]

And I'm pretty sure RC hospitals don't check the label to make sure it's not a 'Jewish' medicine before they administer it.

[jbg]

And I'm pretty sure RC hospitals don't check the label to make sure it's not a 'Jewish' medicine before they administer it.

It would seem that checking medicinal labels in that manner would violate the Hippocratic Oath.

[mcqueen625]

This is prejudice and racism pure and simple. Certain European nations like this one are going to have more and more influence foisted upon them by the minority Muslims until the host nation will no longer be recognized.

Yet if it was a white Christian hospital I bet there would be a lot of people on this forum that would say thats ok and anyone saying it wasnt was not respecting religious freedoms.

It is a private religious institution. Who cares. Use the regular hospital system already in place. Im anti-religious and I have no problem with religous people having their own hospitals if they choose as long as I dont have to use it or have my tax money pay for it and I can still get healthcare elsewhere. It amazes me how people scream and cry about religous freedoms for Chritians on this forum ( ie on gay marriage) but when it comes to religious freedoms for Islamic people its a different story. Thats "prejudice and racism pure and simple".

I'll give you an example of how this thinking is wrong-headed. New Brunswick is supposedly the only "Officiall Bilingual" Province in Canada, and all hospitals in the province are bilingual so they could serve both linguistic groups. Great idea except that now in Moncton we have two hospitals, one for French and one for English patients even though both hospitals employ bilingual staff. Now in Saint John, NB where less than 6% of the population professes French as their mother-tongue, we have a new situation. The Province paid to open a French only school within a provincially built cultural centre, and I didn't have a problem with that until the Acadian Society recently demanded that they be able to open their own medical Clinic to serve French only patients in that centre, and I also didn't have a problem with that until that demand was that the local Saint John Regional Hospital Corporation was asked to pay for this separate facility out of scarce financial resources. We now have a local hospital that is fully bilingual capable, yet we are also paying for a separate French only facility which is less than a 3 minute drive away. Does this make sense to anyone financially or otherwise? What we now have is segregation instead of bilingualism, a concept that South Africa fought for years to eliminate, only ours is based on the spoken langauge instead of the colour of one's skin.

As someone else said and I agree with them, multiculturalism is definitely a failed concept, and we need to get back to common sense. Segregation is just wrong if you expect a society to function without conflict, and to do that all citizens need to be treated the same.

[jbg]

Now in Saint John, NB where less than 6% of the population professes French as their mother-tongue, we have a new situation.

The others speak Canadian?

[scribblet]

Are any of the "oh my god" crowd as upset about Roman Catholic Hospitals when they share their morality on those who need care?

These hospitals are not restricted to RC's only and they don't refuse to use medications or procedures having anything to do with non-RC's, and neither do they segregate people by religion. How exactly does this fit in with a model of multiculturalism and tolerance.

Segregating groups and facilities opens the door to for other forms of apartheid; will there be a call for a special hospital for people who don't like abortions or don't like hospital which provide birth control. Reasonable accomodation for religious beliefs is one thing, segregation is another, where do we draw the line.

http://www.hope.be/07publi/07newpublics/socdial/netherl.htm according to this, most hospitals are priveate non-profit, where the gov't sets the budge. I'm not clear about funding.

Private non profit making: hospital employers in private non profit hospitals are represented by the ‘Nederlandse Zorgfederatie’ (NZF), which covers almost 100% of the hospitals (intramural care). Employees in private non profit making hospitals are represented by the same 3 national (general) trade unions as the public sector. In this sector the government is not a partner in negotiations. The government fixes annually the hospital budget which thus indirectly influences the liberty of the social partners to negotiate.

[M.Dancer]

These hospitals are not restricted to RC's only and they don't refuse to use medications or procedures having anything to do with non-RC's, and neither do they segregate people by religion. How exactly does this fit in with a model of multiculturalism and tolerance.

Say again?

Many Roman Catholic hospitals refuse to perform abortions.....there is one story where a youngster was givennthe run around for so long that the window of opportunity closed and she would not have a mid term abortion.

It's all a matter of degrees......

[geoffrey]

These hospitals are not restricted to RC's only and they don't refuse to use medications or procedures having anything to do with non-RC's, and neither do they segregate people by religion. How exactly does this fit in with a model of multiculturalism and tolerance.

Say again?

Many Roman Catholic hospitals refuse to perform abortions.....there is one story where a youngster was givennthe run around for so long that the window of opportunity closed and she would not have a mid term abortion.

It's all a matter of degrees......

Most hospitals in Canada don't do abortions, there are family planning (ie. planning not to have a family) clinics that deal with that.

[bradco]

This is prejudice and racism pure and simple. Certain European nations like this one are going to have more and more influence foisted upon them by the minority Muslims until the host nation will no longer be recognized.

Yet if it was a white Christian hospital I bet there would be a lot of people on this forum that would say thats ok and anyone saying it wasnt was not respecting religious freedoms.

It is a private religious institution. Who cares. Use the regular hospital system already in place. Im anti-religious and I have no problem with religous people having their own hospitals if they choose as long as I dont have to use it or have my tax money pay for it and I can still get healthcare elsewhere. It amazes me how people scream and cry about religous freedoms for Chritians on this forum ( ie on gay marriage) but when it comes to religious freedoms for Islamic people its a different story. Thats "prejudice and racism pure and simple".

I'll give you an example of how this thinking is wrong-headed. New Brunswick is supposedly the only "Officiall Bilingual" Province in Canada, and all hospitals in the province are bilingual so they could serve both linguistic groups. Great idea except that now in Moncton we have two hospitals, one for French and one for English patients even though both hospitals employ bilingual staff. Now in Saint John, NB where less than 6% of the population professes French as their mother-tongue, we have a new situation. The Province paid to open a French only school within a provincially built cultural centre, and I didn't have a problem with that until the Acadian Society recently demanded that they be able to open their own medical Clinic to serve French only patients in that centre, and I also didn't have a problem with that until that demand was that the local Saint John Regional Hospital Corporation was asked to pay for this separate facility out of scarce financial resources. We now have a local hospital that is fully bilingual capable, yet we are also paying for a separate French only facility which is less than a 3 minute drive away. Does this make sense to anyone financially or otherwise? What we now have is segregation instead of bilingualism, a concept that South Africa fought for years to eliminate, only ours is based on the spoken langauge instead of the colour of one's skin.

As someone else said and I agree with them, multiculturalism is definitely a failed concept, and we need to get back to common sense. Segregation is just wrong if you expect a society to function without conflict, and to do that all citizens need to be treated the same.

Your examples are different though. I specifically said private institution. A public institution is much different, I agree. I wouldnt support any publicly funded institutions promoting segregation but private institutions ought to be able to do things as they wish as long as they dont discriminate (ie these hospitals cant refuse care).