Non Muslim Kills 3 Girls

[Riverwind]

Engineering change in European countries by overwhelming the population seems to be the technique to bring about the change they want. And this could be the blueprint for all countries, one at a time, as we wait for them to settle down.

There is no Muslim conspiracy to take over Europe. Muslims move to European countries for purely economic reasons. The fact that they bring their culture with them is co-incidental. Furthermore, European countries have to shoulder some of the blame for the lack of assimilation because they allow immigrants but do not accept them as equals. We do not have the same issue here because our society is more accepting of immigrants. The fact that Muslims are just one immigrant group among many also helps. That said, I don't believe in a immigration policy that allows people to immigrate that don't have a certain amount of cultural compatibility but that is a different issue.

Many of these Islamic countries are getting more dogmatic, not less. And the hatred of the Jews and the Great Satan (the West) seems to be on the rise as well. Whenever Israel has turned the other cheek, the outcome has been discouraging.

Israel is in a unique situation and I don't think we should conduct our foreign policy based on how Israel gets along with its neighbors. Ultimately, we have to share this planet with some pretty disagreeable neighbors that we can't get rid and we can't move somewhere else so we have to find some way to get along. In the short term that means we will have to turn the other cheek because responding with violence will breed more violence. To put it simply: a military victory over Islamic cultures is impossible therefore we must pursue non-military solutions. The only non-military solution is some sort of accommodation - there are no other options.

Furthermore, the precedent has been set with China. The 'One China' policy that was originally adopted to deal with the lunatic Maoist regime is extremely distasteful for anyone who believes in justice and fairness. Fortunately, it did provide a way for China would mature into a good world citizen. China has a way to go on that front but the world is a much better place as a result of that 'accommodation' in the 1970s. We need to find an equivalent accommodation with Islam.

Personally, I think our society and culture is much stronger than many people think and that in any war of culture western secular values will take over Islamic countries long before Islamasist values take over western countries. However, we cannot win a war of culture if we constantly invade or bomb muslim countries.

[Michael Hardner]

The difference is that the violence of the Muslim holy book seems to inspire an awful lot more real life violence than the violence in any other holy book.

Argus - do you think that the book is to blame then ? Because if it's the book, then why does the bible inspire almost no similar types of violence ?

[Michael Hardner]

The difference is that the violence of the Muslim holy book seems to inspire an awful lot more real life violence than the violence in any other holy book.

Argus - do you think that the book is to blame then ? Because if it's the book, then why does the bible inspire almost no similar types of violence ?

[M.Dancer]

In an related tangent, heavy metal music kills parents and hip hop leads to teenage pregancy and dungeon and dragons led to suicide.......

[JerrySeinfeld]

There is no Muslim conspiracy to take over Europe. Muslims move to European countries for purely economic reasons.

[JerrySeinfeld]

There is no Muslim conspiracy to take over Europe. Muslims move to European countries for purely economic reasons.

You need to change your thinking. There may not be an organized plot to take over any country, but there is a pervasive thought in the Muslim community which say that basically non-believers are infidels and filthy pigs.

There is a superioristic view of themselves and an intolerance of those who do not submit to the hardline belief that Allah is absolute.

Muslims refer to converts as "reverts" - ie/ everyone is born a Muslim and doens't realize it yet.

There is also a willingness to die for the cause, one which is a long term will of the Muslim people to stand up for -and to die- for Allah.

So while there may not be a "plot" or "conspiracy" to take over, there is a natural tendency for these swelling, growing communities to do very well when immersed in a scoiety whose very nature is to be passive, to acquiesce, to tolerate and to bow down to their views and intimidation.

I ask you - what to you get when you have a massive group of unassimilated people who think they're superior, think the "homelanders" are pigs and are willing to take to viollence and intimidation - and place these people into a society who'se first instinct is to give in? You get Denmark, you get france and you get what's happening in Britain.

The Arab saying "a falling camel attracts many knives" is relevant here. hey see us a weak and spineless and willing to give in.

Many Militant Muslims have mastered the art of manipulating the western bias toward not offending ANYBODY - especially people of of different races and religions.

Why do you think an uncovered Al Qaeda manual strongly suggests "upon being captured, complain to the press about prisoner abuse." Funny thing - look at what happened after the Toronto arrests. here was a mini-uproar about exactly that.

They know how to push our sensitivity buttons - as they have in Europe very well. And Argus' point is vry valid: We need to stop cowtowing to every intimidation to eliminate our basics freedoms such as speech.

That's the start. Continuing to "wait it out" is exactly what has caused the problem in the first place.

[M.Dancer]

non-believers are infidels

That's redundant

[Michael Hardner]

Many Militant Muslims have mastered the art of manipulating the western bias toward not offending ANYBODY - especially people of of different races and religions.

JS - Is this how you justify overstating your case, exaggerating and manipulating the information on your side ?

Wouldn't you feel better if Canada's moderating influence brought a calming influence to this religion ? Or does the idea of moderate Muslims threaten you in some way ?

[JerrySeinfeld]

Many Militant Muslims have mastered the art of manipulating the western bias toward not offending ANYBODY - especially people of of different races and religions.

JS - Is this how you justify overstating your case, exaggerating and manipulating the information on your side ?

Wouldn't you feel better if Canada's moderating influence brought a calming influence to this religion ? Or does the idea of moderate Muslims threaten you in some way ?

I won't believe in the concept of "Moderate" Muslims until they work hard to eradicate the militants from the religion.

There were alot of "Moderate" germans in the 40's too, but alot of good that did the jews.

Simply issuing a press release denoucing terrorism as a token gesture isn't enough.

If you were the principal of a school that was notorious for having pockets of murderous youths, it wouldn't be acceptable to simply issue a statement saying "I am against violent youth." You'd be expected to work hard to eradicate this from your instution.

If ANYONE should be doing everything possible in a transparent and aggressive fashion to eliminate militant islam, it's the modrates.

But we don't see this. We don't see massive amounts of openness, transparency and cooperation. We don't see Muslims marching down the street AGAINST terrorism, AGAINST hexbollah, AGAINST suicide attacks, AGAINST 9-11. Sure we see little press releases from time to time, but if the "Moderate" Muslsims are serious we'd see some real transparent action.

Instead we see excuses and sidestepping.

I doubt if non-Muslims are even allowed to walk into a Mosque and hear what is said by the Imams.

When Swedish Mosques are giving out hat literature and videos on Martyrdom, it makes you wonder.

[Riverwind]

I won't believe in the concept of "Moderate" Muslims until they work hard to eradicate the militants from the religion.

It is a chicken and egg problem. Muslims need an incentive to become moderate. Unjustified attacks on Muslim countries do not provide that incentive - in fact, they encourage Muslims to be even more militant.

Muslims militants may be a PIA but the only pratical way to deal with them is to reach out the Muslim moderates no matter how hard they are to find.

[Michael Hardner]

When Swedish Mosques are giving out hat literature

Forgive me, JS, but that's the typo of the month !

Hat Literature !!!

[JerrySeinfeld]

I won't believe in the concept of "Moderate" Muslims until they work hard to eradicate the militants from the religion.

It is a chicken and egg problem. Muslims need an incentive to become moderate. Unjustified attacks on Muslim countries do not provide that incentive - in fact, they encourage Muslims to be even more militant.

Muslims militants may be a PIA but the only pratical way to deal with them is to reach out the Muslim moderates no matter how hard they are to find.

That doesn't explain Bali OR 9-11.

I heard a prominent palestinian after Bali say "these kinds of attacks will not stop until w answer the Palestinian Question."

Huh? What does Palestine have to do with Bali?

The whole point is being missed by you: You are assuming Muslims WANT to assimilate or integrate.

The problem is, they don't see it that way. They see YOU as the one who needs to be pushed into integration. ie. "reverting" to Islam, the only true god.

[Shady]

Why are almost all serial killers white males ? Do you think it's the male culture of violence to blame ?

Yep, and guess what genius, law-enforcement profiles for that. It's too bad we couldn't do the same for terrorists. I guess we don't wanna hurt anyone's feelings.

Oh, and this tactic has been done before. Black Dog started a thread involving a guy making a pipe bomb and equated it with the threat from Muslim terrorism. Pretty lame.

[Riverwind]

The whole point is being missed by you: You are assuming Muslims WANT to assimilate or integrate.

What difference does want Muslims want to do? There are cultural forces at work that are beyond their control and they will be assimilated whether they want it or not. The only question is what we can do to encourage this process. I argue that using violance or heavy handed tactics will delay the process since people almost always side with 'their own' when faced with phsycial danger.

The problem is, they don't see it that way. They see YOU as the one who needs to be pushed into integration. ie. "reverting" to Islam, the only true god.

They have zero chance of accoplishing that goal so I really don't care what they may want or may not want. All I care about is that we manage the terror problem properly to protect the lives and property of people in our society. Bombing civilizans in Muslim countries makes the terror problem worse no matter what the provocation. Furthermore, regime change won't help much either because Mulsims socities are not culturally ready to accept our pluralistic democratic institutions. IOW, all we can pratically do is build barriers to keep the terrorists out and avoid confrontation. Eventually the will realize that their problems are entirely of their own making and they will be willing to change.

[Higgly]

I have watched this thread develop over a number of days with growing discomfort.

These people are the most peaceful of any we can find anywhere in North America, and the victims are without doubt the most innocent among them.

I have watched even CNN present them as loving people who see every stranger as someone who brings peace.

And I have yet to see anyone who asks why it is that every American has the right to bear arms.

[Rue]

To try turn this into a defence or political exercise to suggest people can not criticize the Muslim religion for being violent is pathetic and there was nothing witty or funny about it.

Gosh...just when I thought you were having an epiphany you go and ruin it......

........yeah....people aren't violent...religions are......not only that...it ain't some whack job interpretation...who is usually always a male, has unresolved sexual conflicts, feels alienated and hates himself, never feels he will be accepted by main stream society and has anger towards women who he blames for his feelings of inadequacy. .......it ain't that....it's religion.......

.......ain't no insidious racism here...no siree bob......

O.k. let's try this slowly. There was a crime committed. It was not religious in nature. It was in fact a non religious non political crime of violence against women by a depraved man with unresolved sexual problems that drove him to violence and suicide and acting out his hatred against young women.

What was then questionable was to try twist this act of psycho-sexual violence into a political equation to say its wrong to criticize Islam for being violent since this man (presumably a non Muslim) was violent.

That is what we are calling out. They are two completely distinct issues. Had this man killed in the name of Christianity or another religion, then there might have been some sort of analogy.

What-ever tangent you went off on I have no idea. Yes people are violent. Yes religions can encourage and condone violence. Sometimes the violence is done in the name of religion and sometimes it is not done in the name of religion and when the two are not the same, to try say they are is idiotic.

What might be discriminatory is trying to create a group called non-Muslims and trying to lump them all in one general negative category and equate them to Muslims who are violent.

Try grasp that before you scream racism or go off on a tangent about religion and misunderstand anything else.

It is legitimate to criticize any organized religion or its followers if they are violent. No it is not fair to generalize and say all people of a religion are violent because clerics or terrorists or some in their group engage in violence. No not all Muslims are terrorists or violent but yes their religion and ALL religions have been used to condone violence and when they are we have the right to call it out.

[Higgly]

How did this get turned into a religious issue? This is a gun issue. Anyone who says that the death of these children is a religious issue is an idiot. I cannot believe that there are people who are trying to co-opt this tragedy to their pet peeve. My God. What is wrong with you? Have you never been touched by a child? Do we not have anything that is sacred?

[Rue]

AND I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH HIGGLY'S COMMENTS.

[Argus]

The difference is that the violence of the Muslim holy book seems to inspire an awful lot more real life violence than the violence in any other holy book.

Argus - do you think that the book is to blame then ? Because if it's the book, then why does the bible inspire almost no similar types of violence ?

No, I don't think the book is to blame. And the bible DID once inspire similar types of violence.

The difference is that our culture was once barbaric, and no longer is. Our society and culture have advanced and become more sophisticated and tolerant - in large measure because we have slowly drawn away from unthinkingly embracing and accepting the once rigid interpretations of the Bible. And that lack of acceptance has, over the course of centuries, forced the clerics to revise their intepretations. Besides, the clerics came from the same gradually advancing society and culture themselves.

Muslim cultural values seem to be locked in the middle ages. I believe the reason is that where we challenged the church and forced it into revision, no one has done so in the Muslim world. The interpretations made centuries ago are considered inviable. Questioning them is extremely dangerous. How much different is Muslim culture now from two hundred years ago? From three hundred years ago? From five hundred years ago? How have they progressed culturally and socially? Can anyone tell me?

[Argus]

And I'm sorry, but I'm just not a "turn the other cheek" kind of guy. You think we should overlook their intolerance and wait a generation or more for them to change. I think they will not change without pressure from outside. There has to be pressure from somewhere, and there's precious little coming from within the Muslim world.

I can understand where you coming from but my concern is we don't have a lot of other practical options available. This is not a situation like WW2 where an authoritarian gov't took over otherwise civilized societies in Germany and Japan. In those situations we could knock out the military gov't and let the German and Japanese societies fix themselves with a minimal amount of prodding on our part. With Muslim societies there is a huge culture gap that is not going to be closed any time soon.

I tend to agree. At the same time, I don't see much likelihood of the Muslim world changing, not in a generation, not in ten generations. Or can you tell me they have progressed a lot over the last ten generations? A modern man who found himself transported back four hundred years would be appalled at the bigotry, racism and ignorance of his ancestors. Would the average Muslim? Esp. an Arab Muslim? You also say I don't believe in a immigration policy that allows people to immigrate that don't have a certain amount of cultural compatibility Which I also agree with. Unfortunately, we have a million or so Muslims here now, virtually all of them clinging to the primitive cultural ideals of their homeland, and tens of thousands more coming in every year. We might be able to put up a wall and keep foreign terrorists out, but what about the home-grown problems we are encouraging with continued Muslim immigration? This not only enlarges our population of culturally primitive "others" but helps prevent their community from assimilating into Canada, and assuming Canadian values.

The messes in Iraq and Afghanistan are a case in point. That is why I have come to the conclusion that avoiding confrontation and a lot of patience is the only way forward. And yes, we are talking about waiting generations for them to change.

Or centuries - or eons. And as long as they are not a major threat to us we can accept that. But happens when more and more of them acquire nuclear weapons, perfect their milssile technology, and these unstable nations fall into the hands of religious wackos willing to sacrifice themselves to Allah's greatness? And how much accomodating do we need to do as the local Muslim population grows, and as Muslims are encouraged by our willingness to bow down before their demands?

[Riverwind]

Or centuries - or eons. And as long as they are not a major threat to us we can accept that. But happens when more and more of them acquire nuclear weapons, perfect their milssile technology, and these unstable nations fall into the hands of religious wackos willing to sacrifice themselves to Allah's greatness? And how much accomodating do we need to do as the local Muslim population grows, and as Muslims are encouraged by our willingness to bow down before their demands?

I am not as pessimistic on the time frames. Cultures can change dramatically in a generation or two. The horse has already left the barn when it comes to nukes in the hands of Muslims. I consider Pakistan a much greater threat than Iran for that reason.

[sharkman]

I am not as pessimistic on the time frames. Cultures can change dramatically in a generation or two. The horse has already left the barn when it comes to nukes in the hands of Muslims. I consider Pakistan a much greater threat than Iran for that reason.

I haven't heard Pakistan wanting to wipe a race off the face of the earth like Iran wants to, but I could be wrong.

[KrustyKidd]

I consider Pakistan a much greater threat than Iran for that reason.

Try understanding what makes it tick and much of your ideas will change. Pakistan is a country that wishes to remain one, much the same as any other one in the world and not seeking to re create the Claliphate as many of it's people wish. While seemingly less prone to falling into the 'Caliphate thingy' as you put it out of lack of knowledge, it has, even though it is less central to the Caliphate thingy been in the forefront because of it's need to survive.

Russia to the north, India, it's sworn enemy and earlier ruler to the east it is a supporter of the Taliban simply becuase is didn't wish a pro Soviet government to the west and would have supported anything to enable that. The US garnered their support against the Taliban when Jihadists bombed the Indian parliament and India threatened Nuclear war unless Pakistan reigned in the miltents. The US seeing the opportunity acted as 'intermediaries' and, Mushariff eargar to stop any escalation of a war he couldn't win was all ears. And, ultimately allowed the US to post CIA operatives within it's nuclear facilities in order to stop what might have been an Indian attack which would have destroyed his country. Another bonus was the begining of the cleansing of the ISI, the Pakistani intelligence service who's members did not change as fast as the policy of the ruler.

Mushariff scared of India, the US acting as verifiers of it's nukes and, cooperation in the war on terror. Not much of a threat to anybody. Sides, if they were, not strong enough to withsatnd a preemtive stirke from any medium nuclear power. Iran on the other hand, able to sway regional policy and carry out assasinations worldwide, even if they couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag outside their own borders.

[Argus]

Or centuries - or eons. And as long as they are not a major threat to us we can accept that. But happens when more and more of them acquire nuclear weapons, perfect their milssile technology, and these unstable nations fall into the hands of religious wackos willing to sacrifice themselves to Allah's greatness? And how much accomodating do we need to do as the local Muslim population grows, and as Muslims are encouraged by our willingness to bow down before their demands?

I am not as pessimistic on the time frames. Cultures can change dramatically in a generation or two.

Ours certainly can. Has theirs? I remind you that their cultural value set has not seen any particularly advancement since the times when we were tying up heretics and tossing them into rivers to see if they float. And we have a million of them here having many babies, and we're bringing in tens of thousands more every year. Do we get to the point we're seeing in places like France and England, where their numbers, and the timidity of the authorities have so emboldened them they try to set up their own "no go" areas to the police, to white people, or even to other races and religions? Hindus in Britain talk of being culturally cleansed from Muslim areas. French police are being attacked on a regular basis by Muslim youth. British troops coming home from Afghanistan and Iraq have been harrassed in hospitals and had their homes attacked by Muslims whose dedication and loyalties are to their co-religionists and not the state in which they live. As the numbers of Muslims in Canada rise will we see the kinds of problems other Western nations have?

Self-imposed isolation. Over time, as Muslim immigrants increase in numbers, they wish less mix with the indigenous population. A recent survey finds that only 5 percent of young Muslim immigrants would readily marry a Dane.

Muslims are only 4 percent of Denmark's 5.4 million people but make up a majority of the country's convicted rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes.

What Denmark Can teach us about Muslims

[Rue]

I am not as pessimistic on the time frames. Cultures can change dramatically in a generation or two. The horse has already left the barn when it comes to nukes in the hands of Muslims. I consider Pakistan a much greater threat than Iran for that reason.

I haven't heard Pakistan wanting to wipe a race off the face of the earth like Iran wants to, but I could be wrong.

Maybe not but one thing is for sure, you don't live next door in India.