Northwest Passage

[Agaric]

English please. Or French.

Try getting someone to read it to you, a 4th grader perhaps ?

I will attempt to answer this troll post in a serious manner.

The US is not perfect. The British Empire before it was not perfect. The Holy Roman Empire was not perfect. Pax Romana was not perfect.

What does that have to do with the rotten things the u.s. does ?

You all arent understanding the simplest of concepts here ...

The u.s. is a massive threat, possibly the largest on earth today, with their weapons and money and power stretching across its empire and with little care for human life.

What does the flaws of any other country have to do with this FACT !

Stop deflecting the point, just say "Yes, the u.s. is a fricking mess, yes americans should be doing more to fix it, yes our population seems very stupid and lazy about it, yes, your right Agaric, I might not feel comfortable admitting it but your absolutely right"

I mean if u cant admit it here for fear of some silly ego of urs just admit it to urself ...

STOP LYING TO YOURSELVES PEOPLE ! ITS PATHETIC !!

The US, followed by the British, have, of all the dominant superpowers, been by far the greatest force for good in the world. I have deliberately not invoked Godwin's law, or compared the US to such other abysmal examples as Islam (which still, except for Israel, spans from the Atlantic to, in parts of the Phillippines, the Pacific in creating human wretchedness, or the USSR or China, which have in their own way slaughtered millions.

When you make arguments that are so devoid of serious content, they end rather than further debate, and not in the way you want. No serious thinker will accept that "(t)he u.s. is a major threat to the world, period, end of sentence". And don't call Noam Chomsky or Norman Mailer serious thinkers.

Great examples, but nothing compared to Muslim/Communist/WW II Fascist killing fields. Occasionally, one must support imperfect regimes.

On a separate subject completely yes we should oppose corruption and treachery anywhere it exists ...

So what should we do about the u.s. ???

[Agaric]

I live 30 miles from the US border. I am glad it is the US and not North Korea, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, China, Burma, Syria...

So u admit that the u.s. is corrupt but u feel its a case of keep ur friends close and ur enemies closer?

[jbg]

Stop deflecting the point, just say "Yes, the u.s. is a fricking mess, yes americans should be doing more to fix it, yes our population seems very stupid and lazy about it, yes, your right Agaric, I might not feel comfortable admitting it but your absolutely right"

How about you try living in close proximity to the Israeli-Lebanese or the Gaza-Israeli border (on the Israeli side) or in India near the Pakistani border?

[WestViking]

You all arent understanding the simplest of concepts here ...

The u.s. is a massive threat, possibly the largest on earth today, with their weapons and money and power stretching across its empire and with little care for human life.

What does the flaws of any other country have to do with this FACT !

Stop deflecting the point, just say "Yes, the u.s. is a fricking mess, yes americans should be doing more to fix it, yes our population seems very stupid and lazy about it, yes, your right Agaric, I might not feel comfortable admitting it but your absolutely right"

I mean if u cant admit it here for fear of some silly ego of urs just admit it to urself ...

STOP LYING TO YOURSELVES PEOPLE ! ITS PATHETIC !!

On a separate subject completely yes we should oppose corruption and treachery anywhere it exists ...

So what should we do about the u.s. ???

Absolutely nothing. Besides there being no American "empire', their economic and military might does not make them an 'enemy' of anyone, particularly those who are not in violation of international law.

When Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, the nation asked for American assistance in repelling an invader who was clearly in violation of international law. The Kuwaiti knew that America would respond and secure their freedom.

Your proposition that because the US is one of the world's major powers, it is an enemy of what is right and good is unsupportable. The USA provides more foreign aid than many other nations combined and the USA alone keeps the United Nations afloat.

You may think it smart to gnaw in the hand that feeds much of the world, but that does not qualify you as particularly astute.

[Agaric]

Absolutely nothing. Besides there being no American "empire', their economic and military might does not make them an 'enemy' of anyone, particularly those who are not in violation of international law.

When Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, the nation asked for American assistance in repelling an invader who was clearly in violation of international law. The Kuwaiti knew that America would respond and secure their freedom.

Your proposition that because the US is one of the world's major powers, it is an enemy of what is right and good is unsupportable. The USA provides more foreign aid than many other nations combined and the USA alone keeps the United Nations afloat.

You may think it smart to gnaw in the hand that feeds much of the world, but that does not qualify you as particularly astute.

The u.s. invaded Iraq against the U.N.'s wishes, most of the world was against it because they knew what ur government was desperate to try to fool people about, there was no connection between Iraq and 911, none, never was ...

The u.s. has consistently done corrupt actions around the world, from overthrowing governments to butchering hundreds if not millions of people ...

They put punitive sanctions on countries simply because they wont give goods to the u.s. at prices they want, they help terrorist groups train and arm them as long as they fight against the u.s.'s current enemy ...

The u.s. violates and twists the rights of its own people, its a horrible, horrible country, its the government that is the problem but the american people are asleep at the switch here ...

Heres one example, look at how many military bases the u.s. has around the world!!!

http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/interve...imperialmap.htm

There are at least 700 foreign military bases !!! Think about that ...

Add to that the actions of the u.s, against countries that wont give them resources the way the u.s. wants and u get a very clear picture, empire building, have ur hand in decisions from countries all around the world, control their economies, setup military bases everywhere ...

This isent a mystery and its fairly common knowledge ...

[bush_cheney2004]

The u.s. invaded Iraq against the U.N.'s wishes, most of the world was against it because they knew what ur government was desperate to try to fool people about, there was no connection between Iraq and 911, none, never was ...

No, the US invaded Iraq in 1991 and never really left....the UN was in on it all along...LOL! Canada helped choke those poor Iraqis to death with sanctions and enforcement....Bravo!

[Higgly]

The first North American country to navigate the Northwest Passage was Canada with the voyage of the RCMP ship St. Roch in 1940. The only previous claim was the Norwegian, Amundsen. Norway has a big stretch to claim the Northwest passage.

The US is a johnny come lately, claiming to have had a submarine travel the passage in 2005, sixty years later.

The US should get on board with the Canadian claim and present a united front against the Ruskies. Aren't our guys getting killed in Afghanistan? After all, the Taliban didn't attack Toronto, did they? Where is the US team spirit on this?

[Higgly]

Thank you Charles A! Don't ever let me say you never did anythng for me.

Edited November 4, 2007 by Higgly

[Guest American Woman]

The first North American country to navigate the Northwest Passage was Canada with the voyage of the RCMP ship St. Roch in 1940. The only previous claim was the Norwegian, Amundsen. Norway has a big stretch to claim the Northwest passage.

The US is a johnny come lately, claiming to have had a submarine travel the passage in 2005, sixty years later.

The U.S. traveled through the Northwest Passage in 1969 with the oil tanker Manhattan and in 1985 with the icebreaker the Polar Sea-- just a few years prior to 2005, as you claim.

The US should get on board with the Canadian claim and present a united front against the Ruskies. Aren't our guys getting killed in Afghanistan? After all, the Taliban didn't attack Toronto, did they? Where is the US team spirit on this?

The EU also claims the strait is an international waterway.

"Canada claims the passage as its own; America, backed by the Europeans and others, says it is open sea and therefore a freely navigable international waterway."

"America and the European Union ... say the passage is an international strait and that all foreign ships have the right of 'transit passage.'"

Link (As a side note, the picture on that site is gorgeous!)

[Higgly]

The U.S. traveled through the Northwest Passage in 1969 with the oil tanker Manhattan and in 1985 with the icebreaker the Polar Sea-- just a few years prior to 2005, as you claim.

I provided a link. Do you have one? Even if what you say is true, we were there first and this is our border.What would be your reaction if Canada were to come up with a statement that we have some sort of claim to the US/Mexican border because some guy ran an ATV through it?

The EU also claims the strait is an international waterway.

What part of he EU borders on the Northwest Passage? We conquered Holland back in 1945, does that give us some sort of rights? The EU should mind its own business.

"Canada claims the passage as its own; America, backed by the Europeans and others, says it is open sea and therefore a freely navigable international waterway."

"America and the European Union ... say the passage is an international strait and that all foreign ships have the right of 'transit passage.'"

Link (As a side note, the picture on that site is gorgeous!)

You're quoting the New York Sun? You must be desperate. Screw the EU. It's not their border and they have no claim. I'd like to see them defend that in the Hague.

[Guest American Woman]

I provided a link too. Under "Link." And it is true. As for the U.S./Mexican border, it's not a strait. It's land. So your "what if" is totally irrelevant; completely incomparable.

And the EU isn't claiming rights to it as a bordering nation; they are saying it's an international waterway-- same as other straits in the world. Furthermore, the EU has every right to have an opinion on this.

As for the NY Sun-- can you prove that it's a disreputable source?-- that what they say isn't true? Not liking what they're saying doesn't count. Facts are facts, whether you like them -- or the source that presents them -- or not.

[Higgly]

I provided a link too. Under "Link." And it is true. As for the U.S./Mexican border, it's not a strait. It's land. So your "what if" is totally irrelevant; completely incomparable.

And the EU isn't claiming rights to it as a bordering nation; they are saying it's an international waterway-- same as other straits in the world. Furthermore, the EU has every right to have an opinion on this.

As for the NY Sun-- can you prove that it's a disreputable source?-- that what they say isn't true? Not liking what they're saying doesn't count. Facts are facts, whether you like them -- or the source that presents them -- or not.

Straight, land, who made you the arbitrator?

You are claiming the right to declare it is a international waterway, and so are the Europeans. Who gave y'all that right? This is our border. Go to hell.

It's us or the Russians. Pick your poison. Just don't come up here with your navy trying to look like the king of the world.

The Sun is a POS. Even New Yorkers will tell you that. Good grief.

[Guest American Woman]

Go to hell.

Right back at'cha. I'm done trying to have a civil discussion with you.

[Higgly]

Right back at'cha. I'm done trying to have a civil discussion with you.

Good riddance.

[bush_cheney2004]

You are claiming the right to declare it is a international waterway, and so are the Europeans. Who gave y'all that right? This is our border. Go to hell.

It's us or the Russians. Pick your poison. Just don't come up here with your navy trying to look like the king of the world.

Yes we do/did...and there is nothing you can do about it, except grant permission after the fact to save face.

[Guest American Woman]

Responding to geoffrey's post in another thread:

So why not back us in our claim against the Ruskies instead of this nonsense about how you have some sort of rights to the Northwest passage?

Maybe because Canada's position is shakey at best and the US would hate to see the same thinking applied to other waters.

You hit the nail on the head. From what I understand, straits in the rest of the world are treated as international waters, so I'm wondering what would make the NW passage different. As I pointed out already, the EU shares the view with the U.S. that the NW Passage, like other straits, is international water.

Edited November 5, 2007 by American Woman

[Topaz]

The north is ours, Harper claimed it when he stuck his big toe in the water!! BTW, is Santa, American, Canadian or Russian? Since the US doesn't own land at the North Pole, he must be Canadian-Russian!!

[bush_cheney2004]

The north is ours, Harper claimed it when he stuck his big toe in the water!! BTW, is Santa, American, Canadian or Russian? Since the US doesn't own land at the North Pole, he must be Canadian-Russian!!

I think I have figured out Canada's problem on this issue based on the above: There is no land at the North Pole.

[Drea]

couldn't we all just share it... as per the agreed upon borders?

map

Makes more sense than fighting over it, no?

[Peter F]

I think I have figured out Canada's problem on this issue based on the above: There is no land at the North Pole.

Geography lesson for Topaz:

Canada's northernmost point of land: Cape Columbia, Nunavut at 83deg 07minutes North

Atlas of Canada - northernmost extremity

North geographic Pole : 90 degrees North

1 degree of longitude = 60 minutes of longitude

1minute of longitude = 1 nautical mile distance

90 deg 00 min - 83 deg 07 min (or 90 deg = 5400 min; 83 deg 07 min = 4987 min)

5400min - 4987min = 413 minutes

There are 413 minutes of longitude between the Northernmost point of Canada and

the North Pole; or 413 nm of distance between Cape Columbia, Nunavut and the Pole.

...all over the waters of the Arctic Ocean and/or pack ice floating in that ocean

of which Canada, according to the UN Law of the Sea (which Canada has signed onto) has exclusive territorial jurisdiction over 12nm, leaving 401 nm of ocean between Canadian territorial waters and the North Pole. That 401nm of distance is considered to be international waters.

We do not 'own' it and we cannot 'own' it.

Edited November 6, 2007 by Peter F

[Riverwind]

And the EU isn't claiming rights to it as a bordering nation; they are saying it's an international waterway-- same as other straits in the world. Furthermore, the EU has every right to have an opinion on this.

I think there is some confusion about what the law of the sea actually says. Here is the doc for those interested: http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instrumen...itorial_sea.pdf

Canada is a Archipelegic State which means all waterways between the various islands are territorial waters for purposes of determining sovereignty. However, the convention requires that the sovereign state grant innocent passage through straits used for international navigation. The fact that Canada must grant innocent passage does not alter the fact that Canada has sovereignty over the waters. From the UNCOS:

Foreign ships exercising the right of innocent passage shall comply with the laws and regulations

enacted by the coastal State in conformity with these articles and other rules of international law and, in

particular, with such laws and regulations relating to transport and navigation.

Frankly, I don't see what the fuss is.

[bush_cheney2004]

Geography lesson for Topaz:

Canada's northernmost point of land: Cape Columbia, Nunavut at 83deg 07minutes North

Atlas of Canada - northernmost extremity

North geographic Pole : 90 degrees North

1 degree of longitude = 60 minutes of longitude

1minute of longitude = 1 nautical mile distance

90 deg 00 min - 83 deg 07 min (or 90 deg = 5400 min; 83 deg 07 min = 4987 min)

5400min - 4987min = 413 minutes

There are 413 minutes of longitude between the Northernmost point of Canada and

the North Pole; or 413 nm of distance between Cape Columbia, Nunavut and the Pole.

...all over the waters of the Arctic Ocean and/or pack ice floating in that ocean

of which Canada, according to the UN Law of the Sea (which Canada has signed onto) has exclusive territorial jurisdiction over 12nm, leaving 401 nm of ocean between Canadian territorial waters and the North Pole. That 401nm of distance is considered to be international waters.

We do not 'own' it and we cannot 'own' it.

Agreed...and well analyzed...except that perhaps you meant to speak of latitude instead of longitude. Either way, 400 nautical miles is a long swim, even for a seal.

[geoffrey]

couldn't we all just share it... as per the agreed upon borders?

No. Ownership encourages stewardship. Tradegy of the commons, the NW passage is an environmental disaster many magnitudes greater than Exxon Valdez waiting to happen.

[Higgly]

Agreed...and well analyzed...except that perhaps you meant to speak of latitude instead of longitude. Either way, 400 nautical miles is a long swim, even for a seal.

Actually, not well analysed at all. For starters, from his own link, that far northern point would be Cape Aldrich. I'll add another couple of exceptions to this. For starters, sure the North Pole is at 90 degrees. How many miles of pack ice exist between there and the land to the south? If you can drag your boats over that, you might have something. Maybe global warming will change things. Oh wait. That doesn't exist... But more importantly, Ithe North Pole does not factor into the Northwest Passage at all....

Here's a map of the Northwest Passage, again from Wikipedia. The Wikipedia entry this map was drawn from states that the passage goes through the Canadian Arctic Archipeligo, as the map shows.

Here's another map of the territory in question from Wikipedia.

In 1986, Canada and the US signed the Arctic Co-operation agreement in which the US agreed to request permission before sending ice breakers through. In 2005, the US sent a submarine through, unannounced and without our permission. Another fine example of how the US keeps its word. Software lumber anyone? This year, the Canadian government announced it is going to build a deep water port up there in order to assert our sovereignty.

If you're nice to us, maybe we'll grant you innocent passage, but sending an oil tanker, and especially a nuclear submarine, through there without asking... well that's just not neighbourly at all.

[Guest American Woman]

This is linked to the Toronto Star, though I can't access it there (most likely because it's in the archieves):

"The United States, as well as Japan and the European Union, insist that the ice-choked passage, which winds through the archipelago of the Canadian Arctic to link the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, is an international waterway.

Theoretically, Canada disagrees. But since 1945, it has signed a host of secret treaties that give American warships and submarines unimpeded access to these and other Canadian waters.

In 1988, Conservative prime minister Brian Mulroney and U.S. president Ronald Reagan signed a pact whereby Washington agreed to tell Ottawa before sending non-military ships through the Northwest Passage.

In return, Ottawa agreed to never say no."

So it's not just the U.S. and the EU insisting that the NW Passage is international waters, but also Japan.

And since Canada agreed to never say "no" to U.S. non-military ships going through, sounds as if we have unlimited access even according to Canada. But at the same time, Reagan seems to be conceding that control of the passage does rest with Canada.

Edited November 6, 2007 by American Woman