Aboriginals/First Nations in Canada

[FTA Lawyer]

I can follow the argument made by some that the tract of disputed land is Six-Nations land and therefore the laws of Canada don't apply, but I cannot accept it.

I am one of the them. Under internaltion law one nation cannot inforce their law on another nation within their own territory.

I am fully prepared to put forth reasoned arguments in support of the Six-Nations on this...if they cease their contempt of Court, end the occupation, and return to proper legal channels to resolve their dispute.

The fact is that with any treaty-type agreement, you can't seek to rely on the terms of the document in the name of equity, justice and what is right while simultaneously demonstrating the greatest level of disrespect to the other party to the treaty (i.e. direct contempt for their court of law). If they keep it up, they are liable to give the present government its best legal "out" in 300 years (where they otherwise may have no leg to stand on).

We haven't had any presence on the land for the whole duration that the land matter was under the government's land process. While we were of the understanding that the land was in the process of being dealt with it is sold to a developer. We occupied the land in order to prevent its further development. It is the exact same stunt they pulled in Kahnasatake (Oka) in 1990. You are demanding that we trust the government and their law on that basis. We are not in contempt of their court of law they are and history has proven that repetedly. That is the reason we will remain there until it is resolved.

You need to edit your post...you have inadvertantly attributed your statement as my quote and not quoted the latter part of my statement.

As to your comments...Nationhood and sovereignty are incidents of non-aboriginal law and are inextricably based in the rule of law. You want to rely on the rights and privileges associated with the concept of sovereignty, and you want to rely on the international law governing relations between nations, but only when and where it works in your favour.

Under international law, in order to maintian sovereignty you must exercise a consistent measure of possession and control over the territory over which you claim said sovereignty. By your own statement you put up an argument that the Six Nations have lost the sovereignty over the Haldimand tract due to the failure to maintain it pursuant to international law.

This same issue plagues Canada in its holdings in the North because we continue to allow Russian and other nations' encroachment in our waters...we are at real risk of losing our sovereignty to much Northern territory for our failure to exercise it.

Again, you attempt to marshall support as the white knights in shining armour defending your lands lawfully and justly from the unjust actions of the Canadian government...you have forcefully and recklessly occupied the land simply "to prevent its further development."

Well, guess what...regardless of how hard you argue that Canadian law doesn't apply to the Six Nations...it DOES apply to Canadians and the Canadian government. Foreign nations have full standing to bring an application in a Canadian court and any civilized and respectful nation would follow the proper process and bring an application for an injunction.

Give me one good reason why the Six Nations did not apply to a Canadian Superior Court or the Federal Court for an injunction forcing all development to cease unless and until the Six Nations land claim was resolved. Instead, your people chose renegade vigilante tactics which command little respect.

And before you give me some rhetoric about your hundreds of years of patience wearing thin and the clear inability to expect a Crown servant judge to stop the government or its subjects from doing anything consider the types of injunctions that courts do give in these kinds of international disputes. The most recent I can think of is a lowly district judge in Montana putting the brakes on the entire multi-billion dollar beef trade between the U.S. and Canada contrary to the wishes and plans of both federal governments of both nations because he felt it was the proper legal action in the circumstances.

Remember, I actually am of the view that the Six Nations claim is likely meritorious...but I reiterate...the proper legal process should be followed and the occupation should end. Then the ongoing negotiations can resume and the Six Nations might be able to regain some credibility with Canadians and the international community at large as to the just position they claim to advance.

FTA

[FTA Lawyer]

She:kon!

A lawyer is an officer of the court sworn to uphold Canadian law and Crown interests. There is no need for your assistance FTA Lawyer as you would do more harm than good. The examination of Canadian documents and decisions is irrelevent unless it is weighed against our oral and written history under equal weight. It would be fruitless to make a thorough examination of legal documents and then ignore the actual history of our agreements from our perspective.

...

In the case of land matters, we have begun to take back those lands in dispute and to compel the Crown to answer proof that we ever offered it for lease of sale. In your 3 hours of research it might have dawned on you that there is no proof - something we ascertained 200 years ago and have repeatedly presented as evidence to Canada as recently as last year, only to be dismissed as insufficient.

O:nen

I find it remarkable how cold the response is to a lawyer from red-neck Alberta writing in a public forum in support of the Six Nations position with respect to its potential land claim.

TNE, you immediately dismiss my comments because I am a Canadian...but ask me to accept every bit of virulence you espouse as a Six Nations member. Can you not see why such activity incites angry responses from outsiders looking in?

You further assume that all I have read is Canadian legal documents...well, the point of my reading for 3 hours last night was to read many of the actual correspondence back and forth between the various leaders at the relevant times in this historical impasse...and somehow, you miss the fact that I wrote:

there appears to be considerable merit to the Six-Nations claim to the land in question, as well as considerable merit to the notion that the Confederacy has never acceded to becoming subjects of the Crown.

If you want to bother trying to convince people of your position / rights / justification (which I assume you do, otherwise you would not be writing on this forum) you need to tone down the defiant "kiss my ass and like it" attitude. You may be surprised that people are willing to listent if they are not being insulted.

FTA

P.S. What does your sign on / off of She:kon! and O:nen mean? Is it just hello / goodbye?

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

If you truly read and understood the historical discussions we have had between Canada and the Haudenosaunee then you might have come across one very important tenet.

"Leave us alone."

It is a simple request that has been played over and over again. We're not interested in your angles, your laws, your opinions or your suggestions. You have no right - legal or moral - to suggest that you can help. We did not authorize you to research or predict the outcome of our negotiations with Canada. So the only purpose for your being here is for your own entertainment only. You can spend all the time you want playing and pretending but in reality we don't want or solicit your help. We already have enough Haudenosaunee lawyers - much more skilled at justice and constitutional law than you will ever be - at our disposal should we want to go that route. And since you neither know or understand our laws and customs, any action you could take would only make things worse.

You see, your worldview as an anglo-european Christian male is completely opposed to our worldview and both can never be harmonized. Your worldview and the thnking behind it has led to centuries of genocide against us and nothing has changed in the last 20 years or so to suggest that your are cured of that violent and oppressive thinking. The truth is that residential schools and armed attacks are as possible today as they were 20 years ago and there is nothing you can do that will change Canada's racist agenda.

When you can contribute to your own society and demonstrate that they are less violent amongst each other, and more caring and neighbourly towards us then we might be able to revisit your presence here. Unfortunately in my view, it will take a collapse of your soceity to achieve such a result given the fact that your society it rooted in violence and the disparity of the rich over the poor. Should such a collapse happen in the near future (it is heading that way by evidence of the failure of your primary insitutions - justice, education and government are all corrupt) then it is likely you will become a burden on us, as we still hold the knowledge of survival off the land without the use of mechanised weaponry and tools.

So while at first glance you might think I might appreciate your activity, I really have no regard for it. If that angers you then make it up with yourself, since if you were a skilled as a Haudenosaunee your skin would be seven spans thick. Your anger just reminds me how violent your society is.

O:nen

[FTA Lawyer]

She:kon!

If you truly read and understood the historical discussions we have had between Canada and the Haudenosaunee then you might have come across one very important tenet.

"Leave us alone."

It is a simple request that has been played over and over again. We're not interested in your angles, your laws, your opinions or your suggestions. You have no right - legal or moral - to suggest that you can help. We did not authorize you to research or predict the outcome of our negotiations with Canada. So the only purpose for your being here is for your own entertainment only. You can spend all the time you want playing and pretending but in reality we don't want or solicit your help. We already have enough Haudenosaunee lawyers - much more skilled at justice and constitutional law than you will ever be - at our disposal should we want to go that route. And since you neither know or understand our laws and customs, any action you could take would only make things worse.

You see, your worldview as an anglo-european Christian male is completely opposed to our worldview and both can never be harmonized. Your worldview and the thnking behind it has led to centuries of genocide against us and nothing has changed in the last 20 years or so to suggest that your are cured of that violent and oppressive thinking. The truth is that residential schools and armed attacks are as possible today as they were 20 years ago and there is nothing you can do that will change Canada's racist agenda.

When you can contribute to your own society and demonstrate that they are less violent amongst each other, and more caring and neighbourly towards us then we might be able to revisit your presence here. Unfortunately in my view, it will take a collapse of your soceity to achieve such a result given the fact that your society it rooted in violence and the disparity of the rich over the poor. Should such a collapse happen in the near future (it is heading that way by evidence of the failure of your primary insitutions - justice, education and government are all corrupt) then it is likely you will become a burden on us, as we still hold the knowledge of survival off the land without the use of mechanised weaponry and tools.

So while at first glance you might think I might appreciate your activity, I really have no regard for it. If that angers you then make it up with yourself, since if you were a skilled as a Haudenosaunee your skin would be seven spans thick. Your anger just reminds me how violent your society is.

O:nen

It doesn't get any more pathetic, really...

You come on a political discussion forum and tell people who try to discuss political issues with you to go to hell because you have no interest in anything they have to say.

I wasn't offering you my services...just an open mind...but you clearly don't need or want that because you are all-knowing, all-powerful and have skin that is seven spans thick...and alas, I am a mere human being.

I'm not angry, just amazed and disheartened by the approach you have taken here.

It appears to me that you ought to follow your own peoples' teachings / motto and just leave us (the people wanting to openly discuss issues on this forum) alone.

FTA

[betsy]

We are NOT and NEVER were "a part of Canada"! In fact, if it hadn't been for us there wouldn't be a Canada. It would be New France or the 51st State of The United States.

Then it would've been New France or the 51st State of the US (probably named Canada).

But that being said, you'd still be in the same situation if that indeed had happened.

[jdobbin]

It doesn't get any more pathetic, really...

You come on a political discussion forum and tell people who try to discuss political issues with you to go to hell because you have no interest in anything they have to say.

I wasn't offering you my services...just an open mind...but you clearly don't need or want that because you are all-knowing, all-powerful and have skin that is seven spans thick...and alas, I am a mere human being.

I'm not angry, just amazed and disheartened by the approach you have taken here.

It appears to me that you ought to follow your own peoples' teachings / motto and just leave us (the people wanting to openly discuss issues on this forum) alone.

Good answer, FTA.

[cybercoma]

If the Native Canadians want to be left alone, then why aren't they leaving our government alone?

[NativeCharm]

Not all Native people or nations share the same beliefs and wishes as the Six Nations. It's very important that you all understand the difference in all our nations.

[jdobbin]

Why is the Six Nations not doing blockades in the U.S. as they try to lay claim to Syracuse?

[NativeCharm]

Why is the Six Nations not doing blockades in the U.S. as they try to lay claim to Syracuse?

Just a hunch...maybe theres no corporation trying to develop in that area. Or maybe its not land that contains artifacts.

If you find out, please let me know. Curiouser.

[jdobbin]

Why is the Six Nations not doing blockades in the U.S. as they try to lay claim to Syracuse?

Just a hunch...maybe theres no corporation trying to develop in that area. Or maybe its not land that contains artifacts.

If you find out, please let me know. Curiouser.

http://www.onondaganation.org/news.hugeclaim.html

It seems that this an approach that might actually be workable and not displace or hurt people.

[NativeCharm]

Why is the Six Nations not doing blockades in the U.S. as they try to lay claim to Syracuse?

Just a hunch...maybe theres no corporation trying to develop in that area. Or maybe its not land that contains artifacts.

If you find out, please let me know. Curiouser.

http://www.onondaganation.org/news.hugeclaim.html

It seems that this an approach that might actually be workable and not displace or hurt people.

I like the way you think and thanks for the link. The main problem with land claims is the amount of time it takes up, and then after so much time passes you get all these pople that say" well that was sooo long ago, it shouldnt matter now" blah blah, if you know what I mean! I think thats one of the main points the stand off at Six nations is trying to make. It should not take another couple hundred years to have what is already theirs. Moreso is the fact that they are their own confederacy, so their laws are different. Nation to nation - government to government...SOOOOO complicated. The actions that the OPP, the courts, the citizens and the government take during this indicident will reflect and affect other nations. Its a fact that Canada has been stalling and dragging as long as possible because they have made a monumentous mistake of which all parties involved... are victims of.

'm sure we can all agree that this shouldn't affect the innocent people both Native and non-Native alike.

I truly believe common good and sense will prevail.

[Big Blue Machine]

So do I, but the common sense isn't that common in the natives it seems.

[NativeCharm]

So do I, but the common sense isn't that common in the natives it seems.

Another racist comment from another narrow point of view.

[jdobbin]

I like the way you think and thanks for the link. The main problem with land claims is the amount of time it takes up, and then after so much time passes you get all these pople that say" well that was sooo long ago, it shouldnt matter now" blah blah, if you know what I mean! I think thats one of the main points the stand off at Six nations is trying to make. It should not take another couple hundred years to have what is already theirs. Moreso is the fact that they are their own confederacy, so their laws are different. Nation to nation - government to government...SOOOOO complicated. The actions that the OPP, the courts, the citizens and the government take during this indicident will reflect and affect other nations. Its a fact that Canada has been stalling and dragging as long as possible because they have made a monumentous mistake of which all parties involved... are victims of.

'm sure we can all agree that this shouldn't affect the innocent people both Native and non-Native alike.

I truly believe common good and sense will prevail.

It seems to me that a court injunction could have stopped the zoning and construction outside Caledonia. No need for protesters at all since the law is firmly on the side of someone who uses the law to make their case.

The southern Six Nations don't want to chase the people of Syacuse away. As the article says, they want to use the law to enforce environmental controls over the area and to buy back land within Syracuse for their people. No evictions. No threats. Just the law and a sound plan.

[Riverwind]

I'm sure we can all agree that this shouldn't affect the innocent people both Native and non-Native alike.

I truly believe common good and sense will prevail.

Finally, a voice of reason coming from the native side. The New York band indicates that they would seek rent payments from the state of NY instead of asking for all of the land back or huge cash settlements. That could be a path to a solution in the Six Nations case.

[jdobbin]

Finally, a voice of reason coming from the native side. The New York band indicates that they would seek rent payments from the state of NY instead of asking for all of the land back or huge cash settlements. That could be a path to a solution in the Six Nations case.

I like that they say they want to be a "good neighbor." Where is that attitude north of the border?

[NativeCharm]

Finally, a voice of reason coming from the native side. The New York band indicates that they would seek rent payments from the state of NY instead of asking for all of the land back or huge cash settlements. That could be a path to a solution in the Six Nations case.

I like that they say they want to be a "good neighbor." Where is that attitude north of the border?

I think that got shot to shit when the racism hit the fan from the Caledonians. I was there, I seen it. The blockade was never intended to harm these people, the intention was to get action from the government. It disrupted their lifestyle (morelike "inconvenienced" them), people fail to realize that many of the Native people sacrificed their lifestyles over and over. You would be surprised exactly how many Six supporters are Caledonians and have expressed their support only to be received with violence and public ridicule from other Caledonian residents.

The sad part is the families and children that are married into eachother. The racism will carry on for generations. The government should have stepped in and started the negotiating when they should have, which would have been a long, long, long time ago.

This could have prevented, but our good ol' government will always favour the corporations before ANY citizens of any nation or township.

Just my thoughts.

[Riverwind]

The sad part is the families and children that are married into eachother. The racism will carry on for generations. The government should have stepped in and started the negotiating when they should have, which would have been a long, long, long time ago.

What you see in Caledonia is what happens when people feel they are threatened. The racism you saw there will be nothing compared to what you would see if the court actually granted Six Nations title to land that other people currently own or if the court imposed a cash settlement that was so high the gov't was forced into introduce a new tax to pay for it.

That is why I think it is dumb for Six Nations to be demanding the return of the entire Haldimand tract. If they have any interest in living peacefully with their neighbors they are going to have to settle for a lot less - no matter what they might be theoretically entitled to.

[jdobbin]

I think that got shot to shit when the racism hit the fan from the Caledonians. I was there, I seen it. The blockade was never intended to harm these people, the intention was to get action from the government. It disrupted their lifestyle (morelike "inconvenienced" them), people fail to realize that many of the Native people sacrificed their lifestyles over and over. You would be surprised exactly how many Six supporters are Caledonians and have expressed their support only to be received with violence and public ridicule from other Caledonian residents.

The sad part is the families and children that are married into eachother. The racism will carry on for generations. The government should have stepped in and started the negotiating when they should have, which would have been a long, long, long time ago.

This could have prevented, but our good ol' government will always favour the corporations before ANY citizens of any nation or township.

Just my thoughts.

I can understand the anger at hooligans on both sides. All they do is raise the temperature.

However, an injunction would have had the desired effect on stopping construction.

The Six Nations have the government's attention. There is probably no reason for them to stand in a muddy field to trade insults with people who are inflamed already.

Momentum to deal with Native issues take a step backwards with confrontations that end violently.

[scribblet]

The sad part is the families and children that are married into eachother. The racism will carry on for generations. The government should have stepped in and started the negotiating when they should have, which would have been a long, long, long time ago.

What you see in Caledonia is what happens when people feel they are threatened. The racism you saw there will be nothing compared to what you would see if the court actually granted Six Nations title to land that other people currently own or if the court imposed a cash settlement that was so high the gov't was forced into introduce a new tax to pay for it.

That is why I think it is dumb for Six Nations to be demanding the return of the entire Haldimand tract. If they have any interest in living peacefully with their neighbors they are going to have to settle for a lot less - no matter what they might be theoretically entitled to.

Agreed, but the more I read and hear the more we seem to be on a collision course. I heard on the radio yesterday, that the natives have said they will NEVER leave that land, and they will NOT accept any legal decision that is not in their favour. So, even if it is legally decided against them they are staying and disrupting anyway - any attempt to remove them will be met with country wide resistance (terrorism). Not to mention that the general point seems to be that the natives are actually demanding all of Canada to be reverted to a racist state. Something many people are not hearing or accepting, or maybe they are just in plain denial over it.

Maybe this is the opportunity for the government to speed up the process considerably, take a firm stand on these issues, settle outstanding claims one way or another then close off any new claims. Life for all people has to return to normalcy, all people have to work and make a living, it is time to take a stand on behalf of all Canadians and equality.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

Until all the outstanding land disputes are settled and the treaties and agreements fully recognized and upheld, the ~new and improved~ normalcy will be land reclamations, road blockades and infrastructure disruptions. 20 years ago our Royaner warned your Prime Minister and Governor General that our youth were discontent with the inequity and injustices of ignored agreements and encroachments on our territories. 10 years ago the Royaner predicted that if the government did not come to the table to discuss these issues that the young adults would escallate the issues by confrontational action. Our Royaner were ignored and dismissed as Canada told us to go back in our corner and wait.

Today the youth of 20 years ago are the Warriors and Mothers in our community. They are no longer a patient lot, and have garnered the support of the old people who see their actions a necessary and compelling.

Prefaced by Oka and Ipperwash, this is the new land claims process, where we take back our territory and let your government prove we ever gave it up. Guess what? You government knows it is up a creek without a paddle and so it sees negotiation as an alternatve an expedient and necessary process. Funny how when the shoe is on the other foot, your government knowing it is sunk, wants to talk with us.

The government is starting from a weak position neither being the occupiers or the legal title-holders of the lands. You can all be assured that you won't be gaining much from these talks, since we are unwilling to negotiate ourselves into a loss.

O:nen

[Okwaho]

Why is the Six Nations not doing blockades in the U.S. as they try to lay claim to Syracuse?

The U.S. Supreme court isn't in denial and playing games. They know their forefathers made agreements with our people and are of the just and moral frame of mind that it's time to right the wrongs.

[jdobbin]

The U.S. Supreme court isn't in denial and playing games. They know their forefathers made agreements with our people and are of the just and moral frame of mind that it's time to right the wrongs.

I think if you read the links more closely, you will find that there was a comittment to do no harm to one another and to work together. There was also a committment to fight back the more radical claims of the Oneida Wisconsin.

[jdobbin]

The more radical elements will ensure someone will be killed. But perhaps that is what is wanted all along.