A return to sanity: 2007

[gerryhatrick]

This is good news for Canada? This is terrible news for Canada. Supporting a leaderless party that unabashedly stole millions from the taxpayers shows just how stupid people are.

From the Gomeray report:

Mr. Chrétien to be exonerated from blame for Mr. Corriveau’s misconduct.

snip

On the evidence there is no basis for attributing blame or responsibility

to any other Minister of the Chrétien Cabinet, since they, like all members

of Parliament, were not informed of the initiatives being authorized

by Mr. Pelletier and their funding from the Unity Reserve. Mr. Martin,

whose role as Finance Minister did not involve him in the supervision

of spending by the PMO or PWGSC, is entitled, like other Ministers

in the Quebec caucus, to be exonerated from any blame for carelessness

or misconduct.

Let's see you back up your comments. You can't.

And of course, as per the advice of Frank Luntz, the Conservative party is engaged in Liberal bashing over this issue for another year. Perhaps instead they should concentrate on governing and responding intelligently to circumstances.

Perhaps then they wouldn't be sinking like a rock in the polls.

In case you missed it, cybercoma.

[cybercoma]

Millions of dollars still went missing on their watch. I don't give a crap what Gomery has to say about it.

"Oh they were all blissfully unaware."

Bullshit.

[jbg]

Do you have any proof that Liberal cabinet ministers (aside from Gagliano who is no longer an MP) were aware of the fact that contracts were awarded to liberal-friendly agencies, or any other scandals for that matter?

As a very great leader of a very great democracy once said: "A proof is a proof (Link) What kind of proof ? It's a proof. A proof is proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it is proven."

[jdobbin]

There will certainly be many people fighting the next election on the previous Liberal government's time in office. There will be others who will look at Harper's overall performance.

I still think the long term prospects of Afghanistan will play a part on how people vote this election. Unlike Bush and Blair, I don't think that Canadian will be as swayed on the "war on terrorism" argument. They will be looking at hard facts about how Canada is improving the situation in Afghainstan and our prospects for getting out.

[sharkman]

Polls are showing that Canadians are doing what they've always done, being blown around by every shifting wind. The only poll that counts is on election day.

If you don't like Harper's stand on Israel, you can at least respect that he takes a position based on his reasoning and logic, not wetting his finger and sticking it up to see which way will get him the most votes.

[jdobbin]

Polls are showing that Canadians are doing what they've always done, being blown around by every shifting wind. The only poll that counts is on election day.

If you don't like Harper's stand on Israel, you can at least respect that he takes a position based on his reasoning and logic, not wetting his finger and sticking it up to see which way will get him the most votes.

It's true that the poll on election day is the one that count. However, even Harper's own caucus this weekend is getting flooded with people's emails, letters and calls. Canadians are split on this issue.

Harper even felt compelled to acknowledge that split. He is probably hoping that a ceasefire will happen soon or it will continue to be a long hot summer.

[gc1765]

Polls are showing that Canadians are doing what they've always done, being blown around by every shifting wind. The only poll that counts is on election day.

If you don't like Harper's stand on Israel, you can at least respect that he takes a position based on his reasoning and logic, not wetting his finger and sticking it up to see which way will get him the most votes.

Then how do you explain Harper changing his stance on the middle east in light of recent polls??

Link

[gc1765]

Millions of dollars still went missing on their watch. I don't give a crap what Gomery has to say about it.

"Oh they were all blissfully unaware."

Bullshit.

So do you expect that every MP must be aware of exactly how every dollar is spent? Or do you think that they all get together in a caucus meeting to discuss how they are defrauding the government?

[Argus]

The Liberals will never see a win in this country for decades and that is just how it should be. Especially after being proven that they were theives and liars on the grandest scale ever known to Canadians.

Proof of MP involvement please?? Indictments, convictions??

Is that your standard for judging morality and ethics? "Well, he hasn't been convicted of anything yet."

Sad.

[Argus]

Hardly silent. It was Martin who initiated the Gomery Inquiry.

Here is the Top 10 List of Gomery Hypocrisy:

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/wajsman110205.htm

Martin had little choice after the AG investigation and the previous news. So he pretended to be Mr. Clean and expose the corruption of "the previous regime" - of which he was a major part.

[Argus]

Polls are showing that Canadians are doing what they've always done, being blown around by every shifting wind. The only poll that counts is on election day.

If you don't like Harper's stand on Israel, you can at least respect that he takes a position based on his reasoning and logic, not wetting his finger and sticking it up to see which way will get him the most votes.

Then how do you explain Harper changing his stance on the middle east in light of recent polls??

Link

He hasn't. He has only pointed out that that phrase the media loves to repeat, about the "measured response" was said one or two days into Israel's retaliation for the attack, and obviously before things erupted into a larger regional conflict.

Aside, am I the only one who now considers the Globe and Mail to be the most leftist newspaper in Canada on all issues except direct fiscal policy? I would say they're further to the left than even the Toronto Star now.

[jdobbin]

Martin had little choice after the AG investigation and the previous news. So he pretended to be Mr. Clean and expose the corruption of "the previous regime" - of which he was a major part.

Martin didn't have to have an investigation. He went ahead anyway.

Anyway, the next election will likely be focused on the issues now which are Afghanstan, gun registration, gay marriage, etc. Some of the Conservative stands on those issues are such that they will be hard to sell in places they need to win seats.

[Argus]

Millions of dollars still went missing on their watch. I don't give a crap what Gomery has to say about it.

"Oh they were all blissfully unaware."

Bullshit.

So do you expect that every MP must be aware of exactly how every dollar is spent? Or do you think that they all get together in a caucus meeting to discuss how they are defrauding the government?

We've been over this already. The rumours about the misspending in Quebec were all over the province. Especially in political circles. That's why the BQ were asking questions in the house for years, that's why the media were getting involved. And you can bet that within the Quebec Liberal party it was common knowledge that this was a kitty to be used to reward friends with. Martin certainly knew about it. That a man with a political machine which was centred in Quebec and took in over half the party had no idea what was going on in his own province defies belief.

[Argus]

Martin had little choice after the AG investigation and the previous news. So he pretended to be Mr. Clean and expose the corruption of "the previous regime" - of which he was a major part.

Martin didn't have to have an investigation. He went ahead anyway.

Anyway, the next election will likely be focused on the issues now which are Afghanstan, gun registration, gay marriage, etc. Some of the Conservative stands on those issues are such that they will be hard to sell in places they need to win seats.

I think most of us are getting tired of whiny little interest groups and their issues. The election should be on broader policy issues. I'm tired of hearing about homosexuals and their "issues".

[jdobbin]

I think most of us are getting tired of whiny little interest groups and their issues. The election should be on broader policy issues. I'm tired of hearing about homosexuals and their "issues".

Harper might broaden his majority in Alberta but it is Quebec where he needs to win seats.

If he does offer them something, it is going to hurt him support in the west.

[geoffrey]

Martin had little choice after the AG investigation and the previous news. So he pretended to be Mr. Clean and expose the corruption of "the previous regime" - of which he was a major part.

Martin didn't have to have an investigation. He went ahead anyway.

Anyway, the next election will likely be focused on the issues now which are Afghanstan, gun registration, gay marriage, etc. Some of the Conservative stands on those issues are such that they will be hard to sell in places they need to win seats.

The real danger, is that the Liberals are going to have to take hardline left-wing stances on the issues to illustrate the differences. That means bailing on the Afghan people and the important mission there, rebuilding the gun registry and more liberalisation of our social values.

So our choice is going to be the current concept or a European like welfare state that doesn't get it's hands dirty. The current concept or France if you will.

I'm not impressed with Harper in the recent days, but I can't vote for any party that doesn't have the balls to stand up for their decision to send troops into Afghanistan. What bigger example of weakness and incompetence could exist then sending our nation's soliders into a foreign country and then pulling them out as soon as the mission isn't popular?

I can't vote Liberal next election, I know this for sure. Harper still needs to convince me to vote for him, I still have got the tax cuts I'm expecting and his own hardline approach looks ridiculous at times.

[jdobbin]

The real danger, is that the Liberals are going to have to take hardline left-wing stances on the issues to illustrate the differences. That means bailing on the Afghan people and the important mission there, rebuilding the gun registry and more liberalisation of our social values.

So our choice is going to be the current concept or a European like welfare state that doesn't get it's hands dirty. The current concept or France if you will.

I'm not impressed with Harper in the recent days, but I can't vote for any party that doesn't have the balls to stand up for their decision to send troops into Afghanistan. What bigger example of weakness and incompetence could exist then sending our nation's soliders into a foreign country and then pulling them out as soon as the mission isn't popular?

I can't vote Liberal next election, I know this for sure. Harper still needs to convince me to vote for him, I still have got the tax cuts I'm expecting and his own hardline approach looks ridiculous at times.

It is still too early to tell what direction the Liberals will take until the new leader is in place.

If the gun registry is eliminated, the Liberals are unlikely to revive it. I think on gay marriage that it more an issue that will hurt Conservatives than Liberals.

And as far as Afghanistan goes, I think what you are going to get from the Liberals is a promise to assess our worth there to the people and whether we are hurting their efforts or helping. If Reagan could leave Lebanon in the 1980s and survive, I think the Liberals could do the same with Afghanistan. There isn't anything that says we have to be there a decade or more.

[gc1765]

Then how do you explain Harper changing his stance on the middle east in light of recent polls??

Link

He hasn't. He has only pointed out that that phrase the media loves to repeat, about the "measured response" was said one or two days into Israel's retaliation for the attack, and obviously before things erupted into a larger regional conflict.

Yes he has. First he said it was a "measured response" now he says "“But now we have a completely different situation from three weeks ago, as I've said many times. We have a full-blown conflict, almost a war. And it's hard to say whether a response is proportional to another. It's a war." How is that the same?

So do you expect that every MP must be aware of exactly how every dollar is spent? Or do you think that they all get together in a caucus meeting to discuss how they are defrauding the government?

We've been over this already. The rumours about the misspending in Quebec were all over the province. Especially in political circles. That's why the BQ were asking questions in the house for years, that's why the media were getting involved. And you can bet that within the Quebec Liberal party it was common knowledge that this was a kitty to be used to reward friends with. Martin certainly knew about it. That a man with a political machine which was centred in Quebec and took in over half the party had no idea what was going on in his own province defies belief.

Show me evidence that it was common knowledge in the Liberal party that they were defrauding the government. I keep asking but nobody has been able to show me evidence, just hearsay. Given the animosity between Chretien and Martin, do you think Chretien would simply tell Martin that he was stealing money? Would you give your political opponent ammo against you?

[Charles Anthony]

Show me evidence that it was common knowledge in the Liberal party that they were defrauding the government. I keep asking but nobody has been able to show me evidence, just hearsay.

I have no evidence.

I have a question though: are you happy that your money went to make rich millionaire "friends" of the Liberal government even more rich with the Adscam?

[gc1765]

Show me evidence that it was common knowledge in the Liberal party that they were defrauding the government. I keep asking but nobody has been able to show me evidence, just hearsay.

I have no evidence.

I have a question though: are you happy that your money went to make rich millionaire "friends" of the Liberal government even more rich with the Adscam?

No, I am very upset by it actually. But the people who I am upset with are people like gagliano, chretien, guite, all the ad execs. etc.... I am not upset with any current Liberal MPs, so I don't understand why some people keep suggesting that the sponsorship scandal means everyone in the liberal party is corrupt.

[Charles Anthony]

I don't understand why some people keep suggesting that the sponsorship scandal means everyone in the liberal party is corrupt.

Everybody who supported the corruption in the past Liberal party is certainly corrupt -- in my book, that includes the people who voted for them. I will briefly explain why.

The Liberal party reputation is one of offering something-for-nothing promises. As a result, they cater to free-loaders who think nothing of mooching off of their neighbor. The Liberal party elite exploited the naivety of the Liberal electorate (as they have done in the past long before Adscam) and the Liberal electorate repeatedly gave them the power to do so.

If more Canadians did NOT look to their government for pie-in-the-sky handouts, there would be less corruption.

Now, I have an other question: what is the major differences between the current Liberal party and the current ruling Conservative party in your opinion?

[jdobbin]

Now, I have an other question: what is the major differences between the current Liberal party and the current ruling Conservative party in your opinion?

Sounds like you are setting him up for a trick question. <heh>

[gerryhatrick]

If you don't like Harper's stand on Israel, you can at least respect that he takes a position based on his reasoning and logic, not wetting his finger and sticking it up to see which way will get him the most votes.

That's just more cheap partisan rhetoric. He's not taking a position on reasoning and logic at all, and if you don't think he does his own polling you're living in dreamland.

He might have jumped his polling based on some Rovian advice about gaining the Jewish vote. Unfortunately for him Jews don't make up the majority of Canadians.

[gc1765]

Everybody who supported the corruption in the past Liberal party is certainly corrupt -- in my book, that includes the people who voted for them. I will briefly explain why.

Who in the current Liberal party supported the corruption of the sponsorship scandal? I need names and quotes of what was said.

The Liberal party reputation is one of offering something-for-nothing promises. As a result, they cater to free-loaders who think nothing of mooching off of their neighbor. The Liberal party elite exploited the naivety of the Liberal electorate (as they have done in the past long before Adscam) and the Liberal electorate repeatedly gave them the power to do so.

If more Canadians did NOT look to their government for pie-in-the-sky handouts, there would be less corruption.

I voted for a Liberal, but I did NOT vote for anyone implicated in any scandals. So that does not mean I am corrupt. Voting for gagliano, I suppose, could be considered as corruption.

Now, I have an other question: what is the major differences between the current Liberal party and the current ruling Conservative party in your opinion?

In what sense? In terms of policies, or in terms of ethics? In terms of policies, the differences are pretty clearly laid out in their platforms Liberal and Conservatives

If you are talking about ethics, I'd say there isn't much difference. Unfortunately most politicians & political parties have some level of corruption. The current Liberal party, however, is not as corrupt as some might believe. No more corrupt than the Conservatives anyways. I do find it ironic though that someone (harper) who focused so much of his platform on ethics & accountability has proven to be less than perfect in that area. I'm not surprised though, afterall he is a politician and former lobbyist who fought against restrictions on party donations. I guess that's how the got the nickname Stephen Harpercrite.

[jdobbin]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...02?hub=Politics

A CTV article on donations.

I think the Globe and Mail released the figures for the Liberal leadership money raised and it does seem like some money is going to the race rather than the Liberal party at the moment.