Six Nations Crisis- “Canada’s Pandora’s Box?”

[Riverwind]

Again...reading and comprehension the post says "we white boys". I find it odd that you guys are constantly making the racism accusations especailly when a non-native posts. I told yous in the begining I can read you like last years Sears catalogue. Yous are so in denial you spit out the hynotic raciam chant this time on a non-native.

Sorry, you are one who needs a course in reading comprehension. I was making a statement about trade law that had absolutely nothing to with race and he starts blathering about blacks getting the vote and accusing me of being a racist. The only hyponotic chants of racism I hear are coming from native rights supporters no matter what their colour.

[Who's Doing What?]

Gee Riverwind,your posts sure blow the theory that we need more women in politics because they are kinder and gentler.As for non-violent trade block-ades how are you gonna enforce that with all us white friends of Six Nations running around?As at Oka,Ipperwash, and now Cali the only violence came from the white side.Are you related to Bushes friend stevie?

Canada has a right to control trade through its territory - that is the law. If Six Nations respects the law then they will have to sit down and negotiate a free trade agreement. If Six Nations chooses to violate Canada's territorial rights by smuggling goods then Six Nations is the aggressor. So what would Six Nations do: respect the law and negotiate a free trade agreement or use violance to take what they have no right to?

You mean like the violence the Canadian government used at oh,Oka,Ipperwash,Caledonia???What if we white boys did the smuggling.i'd fight oppression in ALL it,s ugly forms.The american south was full of people like you,HEY! guess what,THE BLACKS GOT THE VOTE.Welcome to the twenty first century riverwind.

Oh wow another one that gets taken to school and starts crying "Racist".

You've really got a reading and comprehension issue. If you read the post it says "we white boys"!

He said, and I quote: "The american south was full of people like you,HEY! guess what,THE BLACKS GOT THE VOTE."

He is calling Riverwind a racist. Don't matter if he is white. He is still calling Riverwind racist.

[ponyboy]

Gee Riverwind,your posts sure blow the theory that we need more women in politics because they are kinder and gentler.As for non-violent trade block-ades how are you gonna enforce that with all us white friends of Six Nations running around?As at Oka,Ipperwash, and now Cali the only violence came from the white side.Are you related to Bushes friend stevie?

Canada has a right to control trade through its territory - that is the law. If Six Nations respects the law then they will have to sit down and negotiate a free trade agreement. If Six Nations chooses to violate Canada's territorial rights by smuggling goods then Six Nations is the aggressor. So what would Six Nations do: respect the law and negotiate a free trade agreement or use violance to take what they have no right to?

You mean like the violence the Canadian government used at oh,Oka,Ipperwash,Caledonia???What if we white boys did the smuggling.i'd fight oppression in ALL it,s ugly forms.The american south was full of people like you,HEY! guess what,THE BLACKS GOT THE VOTE.Welcome to the twenty first century riverwind.

Oh wow another one that gets taken to school and starts crying "Racist".

You've really got a reading and comprehension issue. If you read the post it says "we white boys"!

He said, and I quote: "The american south was full of people like you,HEY! guess what,THE BLACKS GOT THE VOTE."

He is calling Riverwind a racist. Don't matter if he is white. He is still calling Riverwind racist.

Don't be such a bunch of thin skinned fools.I called no one a racists,the south was full of people like you,they sat around wringing their hands showing their fear of change and murmuring oh! woe is me,why can't things just stay the same.Hence "The Blacks got the vote,welcome to the twenty-first century".Times change get over it, wrongs are righted and people like you are brought kicking and screaming into a brand new day.Wipe your tears little ones,the big bad Natives aren't gonna hurt you.

[ponyboy]

Gee Riverwind,your posts sure blow the theory that we need more women in politics because they are kinder and gentler.As for non-violent trade block-ades how are you gonna enforce that with all us white friends of Six Nations running around?As at Oka,Ipperwash, and now Cali the only violence came from the white side.Are you related to Bushes friend stevie?

Canada has a right to control trade through its territory - that is the law. If Six Nations respects the law then they will have to sit down and negotiate a free trade agreement. If Six Nations chooses to violate Canada's territorial rights by smuggling goods then Six Nations is the aggressor. So what would Six Nations do: respect the law and negotiate a free trade agreement or use violance to take what they have no right to?

You mean like the violence the Canadian government used at oh,Oka,Ipperwash,Caledonia???What if we white boys did the smuggling.i'd fight oppression in ALL it,s ugly forms.The american south was full of people like you,HEY! guess what,THE BLACKS GOT THE VOTE.Welcome to the twenty first century riverwind.

Oh wow another one that gets taken to school and starts crying "Racist".

You've really got a reading and comprehension issue. If you read the post it says "we white boys"!

He said, and I quote: "The american south was full of people like you,HEY! guess what,THE BLACKS GOT THE VOTE."

He is calling Riverwind a racist. Don't matter if he is white. He is still calling Riverwind racist.

Don't be such a bunch of thin skinned fools.I called no one a racists,the south was full of people like you,they sat around wringing their hands showing their fear of change and murmuring oh! woe is me,why can't things just stay the same.Hence "The Blacks got the vote,welcome to the twenty-first century".Times change get over it, wrongs are righted and people like you are brought kicking and screaming into a brand new day.Wipe your tears little ones,the big bad Natives aren't gonna hurt you.

Message to Who's Doing what.I got taken to school with a job that took me all over this country for the last forty years.I've seen how the likes of you treat all minorities,don't talk to me until you've spent some time walking in someone elses shoes.Oh! Ya! mommy and daddy gave you everything you ever wanted you wouldn't last a day.

[Riverwind]

Times change get over it, wrongs are righted and people like you are brought kicking and screaming into a brand new day.

Interesting spin. I agree that there is some comparison - aboriginals are just like the plantation owners in the old south who lost their privileges because society decided that inherited privileges are incompatible with egalitarian democratic principals. Native activists today are like descendants of the plantation owners demanding that they be given their land back and the right to deny non-aboriginal people living on those lands the right to vote.

I look forward to the day when native activists will be brought kicking and screaming into the new century were the legacies of feudalism and inherited privilege are thrown in dustbin of history and all citizens are equal - no matter who their ancestors were.

The old south was full of people like you - blacks who believed that they deserved to have second class status and, as a result, supported the white plantation owners in their efforts to protect their 'way of life'. Maybe we should just call you a 'house white boy'.

[ponyboy]

Times change get over it, wrongs are righted and people like you are brought kicking and screaming into a brand new day.

Interesting spin. I agree that there is some comparison - aboriginals are just like the plantation owners in the old south who lost their privileges because society decided that inherited privileges are incompatible with egalitarian democratic principals. Native activists today are like descendants of the plantation owners demanding that they be given their land back and the right to deny non-aboriginal people living on those lands the right to vote.

I look forward to the day when native activists will be brought kicking and screaming into the new century were the legacies of feudalism and inherited privilege are thrown in dustbin of history and all citizens are equal - no matter who their ancestors were.

The old south was full of people like you - blacks who believed that they deserved to have second class status and, as a result, supported the white plantation owners in their efforts to protect their 'way of life'. Maybe we should just call you a 'house white boy'.

"House white boy"you talk in circles riverwind.When it comes to the law and morality you seem to be all over the place.I was in the south in 1965,Selma and Birmingham i saw very few of those blacks you describe,perhaps you should think before you talk.

[Riverwind]

"House white boy"you talk in circles riverwind.When it comes to the law and morality you seem to be all over the place.

Pretty silly accusation for someone who openly supports the creation of aboriginal fiefdoms where non-aboriginals will have no right to vote. What happened in your life that made you convert from person that believed in equal democratic rights for all to someone that only supports democratic rights for people with the correct genetic background?

[Okwaho]

Again...reading and comprehension the post says "we white boys". I find it odd that you guys are constantly making the racism accusations especailly when a non-native posts. I told yous in the begining I can read you like last years Sears catalogue. Yous are so in denial you spit out the hynotic raciam chant this time on a non-native.

Sorry, you are one who needs a course in reading comprehension. I was making a statement about trade law that had absolutely nothing to with race and he starts blathering about blacks getting the vote and accusing me of being a racist. The only hyponotic chants of racism I hear are coming from native rights supporters no matter what their colour.

He said and I quote "we white boys." By the inclusion of himself in his statement I guess he's calling himself a racist too then!

[Okwaho]

"House white boy"you talk in circles riverwind.When it comes to the law and morality you seem to be all over the place.

Pretty silly accusation for someone who openly supports the creation of aboriginal fiefdoms where non-aboriginals will have no right to vote. What happened in your life that made you convert from person that believed in equal democratic rights for all to someone that only supports democratic rights for people with the correct genetic background?

Non-natives would have no right to vote? I see you're now an expert on our culture and society now as well!

Get your facts right before you post!

[Riverwind]

Non-natives would have no right to vote? I see you're now an expert on our culture and society now as well!

Get your facts right before you post!

Tsi and other posters have stated over and over again that non-native 'settlers' would not have the same rights as natives if the Grand River territory is handed over to Six Nations. This is also a demand I have heard from other native groups in other land claim disputes. If I am wrong please enlighten me. Can you say that the 500,000 people living on the Grand River lands would have exactly the same rights as any Six Nations person? This would include the right to run and be elected as a member of all governing bodies with the power to decide what taxes are collected and what it is spent on. Would a non-aboriginal have the right to be elected Chief of the Six Nations band?

[Okwaho]

Non-natives would have no right to vote? I see you're now an expert on our culture and society now as well!

Get your facts right before you post!

Tsi and other posters have stated over and over again that non-native 'settlers' would not have the same rights as natives if the Grand River territory is handed over to Six Nations. This is also a demand I have heard from other native groups in other land claim disputes. If I am wrong please enlighten me. Can you say that the 500,000 people living on the Grand River lands would have exactly the same rights as any Six Nations person? This would include the right to run and be elected as a member of all governing bodies with the power to decide what taxes are collected and what it is spent on. Would a non-aboriginal have the right to be elected Chief of the Six Nations band?

I've posted several times about Emily Johnson and Mary Jemison. I suggest you research them and in particular Mary Jemison and read all about her. By the way...in our society we don't vote! We come to consensus on everything!

[ponyboy]

"House white boy"you talk in circles riverwind.When it comes to the law and morality you seem to be all over the place.

Pretty silly accusation for someone who openly supports the creation of aboriginal fiefdoms where non-aboriginals will have no right to vote. What happened in your life that made you convert from person that believed in equal democratic rights for all to someone that only supports democratic rights for people with the correct genetic background?

There you go again,aboriginal fiefdoms??It's their land,what don't you understand about that?

You called me a house white boy,then you accuse me of supporting democratic rights only for those "with the correct genetic background.You want to see a real racist,look in the mirror.What happened in your life to make you so afraid of the truth???

[Riverwind]

I've posted several times about Emily Johnson and Mary Jemison. I suggest you research them and in particular Mary Jemison and read all about her. By the way...in our society we don't vote! We come to consensus on everything!

You did not really answer my question. I realize that selected non-natives that have proved their loyalty to the band will be accepted as equals. I am talking about giving voting rights to people who are required to pay taxes but have no interest in jumping through hoops to prove their loyalty.

Making decisions by consensus is lovely idea that simply does not work for large groups of people. If you had a society where there were 500,000 non-natives and 20,000 natives you would have to have some sort of elected body that made decisions. In other words, the non-natives would basically run the place. Can you honestly tell me that Six Nations people would consider that state of affairs acceptable?

[Okwaho]

I've posted several times about Emily Johnson and Mary Jemison. I suggest you research them and in particular Mary Jemison and read all about her. By the way...in our society we don't vote! We come to consensus on everything!

You did not really answer my question. I realize that selected non-natives that have proved their loyalty to the band will be accepted as equals. I am talking about giving voting rights to people who have are required to pay taxes but have no interest in jumping through hoops to prove their loyalty.

Making decisions by consensus is lovely idea that simply does not work for large groups of people. If you had a society where there were 500,000 non-natives and 20,000 natives you would have to have some sort of elected body that made decisions. In other words, the non-natives would basically run the place. Can you honestly tell me that Six Nations people would consider that state of affairs acceptable?

There you go making assumptions with "selected non-natives". Tsi already explained to you in an earlier post about what you're asking. Read up on Mary Jemison her story will answer all the questions you can pretty much think about.

[Riverwind]

There you go again,aboriginal fiefdoms??It's their land,what don't you understand about that?

There are 20,000 Six Nations people and 500,000+ non-aboriginal people living on what they call 'their land'. Those 500,000+ people have democratic rights that cannot be denied. These rights include the right to vote to keep the land they occupy and seperate from any hypothetical Six Nations state. What don't you understand about that?

You called me a house white boy,then you accuse me of supporting democratic rights only for those "with the correct genetic background

So explain why you would deny the democratic right of 500,000 people to choose the nation that they wish to be a part of. The only logical explaination for your views is that you have decided that the rights of aboriginals are more important that the rights of non-aboriginals. IOW, only people with the correct genetic background are important in your world.

[Riverwind]

There you go making assumptions with "selected non-natives". Tsi already explained to you in an earlier post about what you're asking. Read up on Mary Jemison her story will answer all the questions you can pretty much think about.

Tsi's earlier explanation proves that I am right to say that Six Nations wants to set up an aboriginal fiefdom where the rights of non-aboriginals would be severely limited. The fact that you will not directly answer my question confirms my suspicions. Do you agree with this statement: "the Six Nation people acknowledge that they will not be able to control how money is spent or what taxes are levied since these decisions will be made by the non-native majority living in the Grand River lands"?

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

Yes it is correct. The 500,000 non-native people living along the tract would not get a vote at the Confederacy Council or in the election of Royaner, as it stands. They would be considered immigrants and must apply for and pass requirements to become Haudenosaunee before they would be offered that priviledge. This is not unlike any nations immigration policy and it is not discriminatory. It is a measure of security and continuity.

In Canada, immigrants must pass and test and be scrutinized by a judge:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/applications/.../CIT0300E5.html

To pass the test you must demonstrate an understanding of:

+ the right to vote in elections in Canada;

+ the right to run for elected office in Canada; and

+ voting procedures and how to register yourself as a voter.

You will also be asked questions to check your knowledge and understanding of:

+ Canada’s history;

+ Canada’s geography; and

+ the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.

The test will take about 30 minutes to complete. If you are asked to appear in person for an interview with a citizenship judge, the interview will take about 15 to 30 minutes. All of the questions on the citizenship test and the questions asked by the citizenship judge are based on the information in the study guide, A Look at Canada.

You can't just move into any country in the world and expect to automatically enjoy the rights and priviledges of their citizenry.

O:nen

[Riverwind]

Yes it is correct. The 500,000 non-native people living along the tract would not get a vote at the Confederacy Council or in the election of Royaner, as it stands. They would be considered immigrants and must apply for and pass requirements to become Haudenosaunee before they would be offered that privilege.

That standard may be appropriate for any new people moving to the territory. That standard is _not_ appropriate for any people already living in the territory. However, that distinction would be irrelevant if the these 500,000 people could become citizens by simply filling out a form and taking a simple test (as required in Canada).

That said, I suspect that Six Nations would not want those 500,000 people to become citizens and would make it extremely difficult for them to do so. Do you disagree? Will you state that you would have no problem living in 'Six Nations' land where all decisions are made by a non-native majority?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Yeah I am pretty sure that the Supreme Court of Canada will just force 500,000 citizens to forfeit all of their property and their Canadian citizenship to a bunch self righteous racists who would basically enslave these citizens. Yup, I figure that the Government of Canada will sit idly by while the court system screws half a million Canadians to death.

Hey first nations dude, what do you guys smoke in them peace pipes anyway?

[ponyboy]

There you go again,aboriginal fiefdoms??It's their land,what don't you understand about that?

There are 20,000 Six Nations people and 500,000+ non-aboriginal people living on what they call 'their land'. Those 500,000+ people have democratic rights that cannot be denied. These rights include the right to vote to keep the land they occupy and seperate from any hypothetical Six Nations state. What don't you understand about that?

You called me a house white boy,then you accuse me of supporting democratic rights only for those "with the correct genetic background

So explain why you would deny the democratic right of 500,000 people to choose the nation that they wish to be a part of. The only logical explaination for your views is that you have decided that the rights of aboriginals are more important that the rights of non-aboriginals. IOW, only people with the correct genetic background are important in your world.

Take a look around the world riverwind,tell me why you would blindly support people of our genetic make up after the Havoc they have caused.My suspicions are you have never been outside your own little bubble unless of course it was to take an UGLY American holiday in a five star hotel and tsk. tsk. at all the poverty around you.Because your White doesn't always make you Right.

As for your other idiotic statement,the whites have denied democratic rights to every country they have ever set foot in,they had the guns so they had the power.you are such an easy target.

[Who's Doing What?]

Posted by Ponyboy

Message to Who's Doing what.I got taken to school with a job that took me all over this country for the last forty years.I've seen how the likes of you treat all minorities,don't talk to me until you've spent some time walking in someone elses shoes.Oh! Ya! mommy and daddy gave you everything you ever wanted you wouldn't last a day.

Here's a message back at ya. I have no issue at all with any minority. You are the racist here. It is you who is saying one group deserves something for no other reason than birthright.

A week ago I would have said Give the Natives half of all crown land left undeveloped. I didn't care about a treaty then either. I just felt it was more than a generous offer and it would put and end to this militantism that is becoming a pattern. The Natives would have more than enough land to practice their way of life and ancient traditions. I thought it would be something good.

But now I know even that much land would never be enough. All the Land, is what they want. Apparently, as it has been expressed on this board, they are more willing to go as far as to starve people out of their homes if that what it takes.

Well that is another, Native supporter the extremist Natives of this board have converted.

[Riverwind]

Take a look around the world riverwind,tell me why you would blindly support people of our genetic make up after the Havoc they have caused.

Where did I say that those 500,000 deserve rights because they are white? I would assume that a good percentage of them are not white. They deserve to have their democratic rights respected because they are human. Their race has nothing to do with it.

As for your other idiotic statement whites have denied democratic rights to every country they have ever set foot in,they had the guns so they had the powered are such an easy target.

As yes, your racism comes out again. Sorry, I don't buy that all white people are guilty crap. People of all races have committed atrocities over the ages and whites are no exception. However, there are a few principals that are designed to ensure that such atrocities do not happen in the future. One of those principals is that everyone has equal rights not matter what their genetic heritage. That is a principal that you claimed to support during the civil rights movement. However, that is a principal that you have abandoned when it comes to Six Nations. Why is that?

[Who's Doing What?]

Yeah I am pretty sure that the Supreme Court of Canada will just force 500,000 citizens to forfeit all of their property and their Canadian citizenship to a bunch self righteous racists who would basically enslave these citizens. Yup, I figure that the Government of Canada will sit idly by while the court system screws half a million Canadians to death.

Hey first nations dude, what do you guys smoke in them peace pipes anyway?

Ya I would love to see which political party chooses to back the Natives on that issue.

20,00 voters over here<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>500,000 voters over here

[NativeCharm]

Well, well. It seems as though this discussion has answered the question that initiated this thread.

My apologies for my absence, I was beckoned by the Mother Earth and the drums. If I had been here, I would have attempted to discontiue the disgusting racist remarks that grew completly out of control. I wish I had the powers to change some of the ignorance that exists in Canada, however some people will never change and they are happy to pretend they have all the answers, and sadly, some of them are here in this forum.

For those of you new posters....Welcome and BIG thank you for participating in this forum. There are many posters here who have attempted to hide their racism through carefully chosen words and fabricated statements, however there are the people here that have asked to be educated and are willing to listen, share and learn for the sake of a brighter future for all generations.

Jerry Fortin: I was most amused by your post..you were NEVER a Native supporter, I'm shocked that you would lie about your false conversion. You're more likely to be a drag queen preaching gay rights before you EVER even attempt to embrace an understanding of Native people's. YOU FOOL NO ONE! Please continue with your act, I truly enjoy watching people make an ass of themselves. (applauds)

As for the gutbusting "Riv", well he's the forums ol' local headlining comedy act, he'd be banned if he wasn't so darned funny ( tosses Riv a buffalo nickel). None of what he has to say should EVER be taken seriously. Him and many of his wannabe buddies have issues with Natives having their own economy or any sort of financial gain. They will say anything, and even go so far as to inventing facts so long as it appears as though Native SHOULD NOT...blah blah blah. He lives in a dream world of his own where Native people and treaties and Canadian history do not exist. DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT ever do business witrh this man, as his handshake is as worthless as his word and he will never open his eyes to look at a contract. If he was Native, he'd belong to the trickster family.

I invited many Native and Non-Native people to this forum to witness and participate in discussions in hopes of eliminating racism through knowledge sharing and enlightening discussions. I hope many of us will strive for this goal.

We face many issues with our people and the relationship to Canada, please everyone ~much respect.

[Riverwind]

As for the gutbusting "Riv", well he's the forums ol' local headlining comedy act, he'd be banned if he wasn't so darned funny ( tosses Riv a buffalo nickel). None of what he has to say should EVER be taken seriously.

Posters that feel the need to restort to name calling and insults are usually posters who don't have any rational or logical arguments to present.

I invited many Native and Non-Native people to this forum to witness and participate in discussions in hopes of eliminating racism through knowledge sharing and enlightening discussions. I hope many of us will strive for this goal.

An interesting statement considering that you just spent several paragraphs insulting anyone who dared to argue with you.

We face many issues with our people and the relationship to Canada, please everyone ~much respect.

People will give you as much respect as you give to others. Why don't you re-read your post and ask yourself honestly how much respect you deserve?