Canadian patriotism and nationalism

[Wilber]

Taxes don't buy you freedom and democracy.

Sure they do, they fund the military.

I still don't see what increased loyalty and flag waving would really do to change mine or anyone else's standard of living.

If everyone thought like you, who would join the military?

Probably nobody.

We would have to pay our military more than we currently do and people would enlist.

Simple.

So you think that all we need is a bunch of mercenaries for our military and police? Money being their only motivation for joining?

[jdobbin]

Most people in Canada have fairly straight forward reasons why they are patriotic. Sometimes, it is rallying around the national hockey team. Sometimes, it is the rallying around an idea of providing health care for everyone. Sometimes, it is just a good old cup of Tim Horton's coffee.

The most nationalistic Canadians of late are the youngest Canadians if polls and census reports are to be believed. They have taken to Canada wholeheartedly. The maple leaf is their fashion, the word Canada becomes a statement.

It is generally people over 40 or over who are more cynical about Canada. Some might say that is experience, others might say it is the life they grew up with. Whatever it is, there is certainly a difference between young and the old when it comes to Canada.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

In light of the current situation in the middle east perhaps now is the time to consider the military and paramilitary requirments of nations.

Is it time to think about the realities of war or do we need to count the tragic deaths on calculators first? When will we learn?

[Charles Anthony]

So you think that all we need is a bunch of mercenaries for our military and police? Money being their only motivation for joining?

I would not say we need it but I would say that if you want to ensure that people will join the military, paying them more would be the most effective method.

Relying on patriotism is not stable.

[Wilber]

So you think that all we need is a bunch of mercenaries for our military and police? Money being their only motivation for joining?

I would not say we need it but I would say that if you want to ensure that people will join the military, paying them more would be the most effective method.

Relying on patriotism is not stable.

I don't disagree that paying our military and police more would get more people applying but if you think money is the reason the majority of people join these organizations, you are very wrong. There is a lot more money in crime than there is trying to fight it.

Relying on mercenaries is even less stable. They are for sale to the highest bidder. On one side one day, the other side the next.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Personally I would prefer that the police and military services received increased wages in drastic fashion. We trust these people with our lives and they risk their lives for us, a little compensation is in order. Include into that plan a 20 year service full pension that pays 2/3 of regular wages and you will find lots of applicants.

[jdobbin]

Personally I would prefer that the police and military services received increased wages in drastic fashion. We trust these people with our lives and they risk their lives for us, a little compensation is in order. Include into that plan a 20 year service full pension that pays 2/3 of regular wages and you will find lots of applicants.

Police in Winnipeg receive $106,000 after five years. That's less than the RCMP or Calgary or Edmonton police. What would be a fair wage?

[Charles Anthony]

but if you think money is the reason the majority of people join these organizations,

No and I did not say that.

There is a lot more money in crime than there is trying to fight it.

Oh, really?

Tell us how much more money.

Relying on mercenaries is even less stable.

Again, I did not say that.

[Wilber]

Personally I would prefer that the police and military services received increased wages in drastic fashion. We trust these people with our lives and they risk their lives for us, a little compensation is in order. Include into that plan a 20 year service full pension that pays 2/3 of regular wages and you will find lots of applicants.

Police in Winnipeg receive $106,000 after five years. That's less than the RCMP or Calgary or Edmonton police. What would be a fair wage?

Where did you get that.

Taken from the department websites, Constable annual salaries range from:

Calgary 43K to 67K

Edmonton 41K to 72K

Vancouver 44K to 71k

Winnipeg 33K to 63K

RCMP 43K to 70K

Of course many can work tons of overtime and make a lot more if they want, but to say their salary is 106K after 5 yrs is just not true.

[Wilber]

but if you think money is the reason the majority of people join these organizations,

No and I did not say that.

There is a lot more money in crime than there is trying to fight it.

Oh, really?

Tell us how much more money.

Relying on mercenaries is even less stable.

Again, I did not say that.

No you didn't. My mistake, sorry about that. We do agree that our military is under payed however.

How much more money? It is estimated that that monetarily, the drug trade is the second largest industry in BC.

[Charles Anthony]

We do agree that our military is under payed however.

I am not trying to be difficult but I will not say myself that they are under paid. However, I do insist that if you want more people in the military, then you should first raise their pay. That is the best way to increase enrollment.

Now, I am going to be a smart-ass:

How much more money? It is estimated that that monetarily, the drug trade is the second largest industry in BC.

Do those trade figures include the "anti-drug policing" market as well?

I ask the question because I firmly believe that the reason why we do not de-criminalize many street drugs is because it would put a lot of drug enforcement agents out of jobs. It would be like making cuts to elementary school education: the first people to complain are teachers unions not parents or students.

[Wilber]

We do agree that our military is under payed however.

I am not trying to be difficult but I will not say myself that they are under paid. However, I do insist that if you want more people in the military, then you should first raise their pay. That is the best way to increase enrollment.

Now, I am going to be a smart-ass:

How much more money? It is estimated that that monetarily, the drug trade is the second largest industry in BC.

Do those trade figures include the "anti-drug policing" market as well?

I ask the question because I firmly believe that the reason why we do not de-criminalize many street drugs is because it would put a lot of drug enforcement agents out of jobs. It would be like making cuts to elementary school education: the first people to complain are teachers unions not parents or students.

It wouldn't matter what we did because 80% are for export to the US and until they change their laws, it won't affect the drug trade at all.

Most of your average police departments time is spent dealing with crime resulting from people trying to get money to buy drugs, not those who sell them.

Do you think your city council is more interested in keeping its police force's drug enforcement teams in business than they are in providing you with schools and other services? I don't.

[jdobbin]

Where did you get that.

Taken from the department websites, Constable annual salaries range from:

Calgary 43K to 67K

Edmonton 41K to 72K

Vancouver 44K to 71k

Winnipeg 33K to 63K

RCMP 43K to 70K

Of course many can work tons of overtime and make a lot more if they want, but to say their salary is 106K after 5 yrs is just not true.

Here is a list of salaries. Winnipeg Police Office, top salary constable $106,000.

Pols trail pack on city payroll

Winnipeg has 3,780 workers making $50,000 and up

Sunday, July 2nd, 2006

By Bartley Kives

NEXT time you feel like whining about the way politicians are wasting your tax dollars, consider this: The average police officer, firefighter or city lawyer is making more money than your city councillor.

According to the latest list of salaries disclosed by the City of Winnipeg's chief information officer, we continue to reward the politicians whose decisions impact our lives most closely with some of the least generous salaries on the public payroll.

In 2005, the average salary for Winnipeg's 15 city councillors was approximately $63,000, not including a healthy tax break that increases their take-home income but effectively reduces their pension draw in the long run.

Police, firefighters, city lawyers, engineers and middle managers typically make more.

Sam Katz, mayor: $104,480.08

Jack Ewatski, chief of police: $157,925.86

Roman Manastersky, transit engineer: $98,074.08

Top salary for a constable, the lowest rank in the Winnipeg Police Service: $106,004.36

-Source Winnipeg Free Press.

[Wilber]

Winnipeg Pay Scales

It wouldn't surprise me at all if a constable earned 106K in a year because they can work a tremendous amount of overtime. Just because a newspaper colomnists wants to make a point he picks one officer that did and insinuates that this is their base pay.

Most police officers work 4 day weeks, 12 hour shifts. Pick up one shift a week and you have increased your salary by 25%. The justice system now forces them to spend a large amount of time doing paper work if they expect to get any convictions. Much of their court time is also overtime on their days off.

If this guy earned 106K in a year, you can bet he earned it.

[August1991]

Here is a list of salaries. Winnipeg Police Office, top salary constable $106,000.

Pols trail pack on city payroll....

dobbin, this forum has rules against posting long articles. Post a quote and link instead. If copyright is involved, the issue is more serious.

[Michael Hardner]

Canada is too big and too diversely cultured to have a common identity, let alone nationalism or patriotism.

Thank you, Geoffrey, and we should also add 'too new'. How can a country that's only 130 years or so old compete with countries that have been around for thousands of years ? And why feel more loyalty to a country, anyway, than to a region or local area ?

The answer is that tribal loyalty and pride is programmed into our biology, which makes us prone to exploitation by those who use these things to their own ends. Nationalism only works when it's drummed into our heads and repeated by everyone around us.

[Wilber]

Canada is too big and too diversely cultured to have a common identity, let alone nationalism or patriotism.

Thank you, Geoffrey, and we should also add 'too new'. How can a country that's only 130 years or so old compete with countries that have been around for thousands of years ? And why feel more loyalty to a country, anyway, than to a region or local area ?

The answer is that tribal loyalty and pride is programmed into our biology, which makes us prone to exploitation by those who use these things to their own ends. Nationalism only works when it's drummed into our heads and repeated by everyone around us.

The US seems to manage just fine. They have two States which are separated from the rest of the country by thousands of miles. They are less than 100 years older than Canada yet none of them have a problem putting their country first.

Canada's problem is that it hasn't been in danger or had to act like a unified country since WWII and most Canadians from that era are no longer with us. Unfortunately, most Canadians don't have a clue what that means.

[jdobbin]

Here is a list of salaries. Winnipeg Police Office, top salary constable $106,000.

Pols trail pack on city payroll....

dobbin, this forum has rules against posting long articles. Post a quote and link instead. If copyright is involved, the issue is more serious.

The Free Press has only password protection for an article. I'll remove the rest of the piece now.

[jdobbin]

Winnipeg Pay Scales

It wouldn't surprise me at all if a constable earned 106K in a year because they can work a tremendous amount of overtime. Just because a newspaper colomnists wants to make a point he picks one officer that did and insinuates that this is their base pay.

Most police officers work 4 day weeks, 12 hour shifts. Pick up one shift a week and you have increased your salary by 25%. The justice system now forces them to spend a large amount of time doing paper work if they expect to get any convictions. Much of their court time is also overtime on their days off.

If this guy earned 106K in a year, you can bet he earned it.

You first said it was untrue a top level constable had that sort of pay.

I asked what the pay level for a cop should be.

Most cops can expect overtime due to being in court and tesitfying, extra time on crime scenes and the like. It is part of the job.

Winnipeg Police Association comments were that even with $106,000 pay for a top constable, it is still less than what other forces were making and they were losing officers to other jusrisdictions.

So what should payment be for a cop?

[Michael Hardner]

The US seems to manage just fine. They have two States which are separated from the rest of the country by thousands of miles. They are less than 100 years older than Canada yet none of them have a problem putting their country first.

Canada's problem is that it hasn't been in danger or had to act like a unified country since WWII and most Canadians from that era are no longer with us. Unfortunately, most Canadians don't have a clue what that means.

That doesn't sound like a problem at all to me, but rather a reason why nationalism isn't needed any more. I have read that 'nations' as such were only created in the last 400 years or so, and came out of the standardization of language. If so, that would further justify the idea that it's a fake construct.

[jdobbin]

Personally I would prefer that the police and military services received increased wages in drastic fashion. We trust these people with our lives and they risk their lives for us, a little compensation is in order. Include into that plan a 20 year service full pension that pays 2/3 of regular wages and you will find lots of applicants.

But how much? The forces recently got a pay increase under the Liberals.

Several media outlets looked at the military pay scale two years ago. Experience and the most common ranks showed some fairly good salaries compared to other industrialized nations. Combat pay raises that salary.

It is hard to know what is a right wage when your life is on the line but a comparison I showed of police and what others in Winnipeg's civil service made showed a fair sized gap.

[Wilber]

The US seems to manage just fine. They have two States which are separated from the rest of the country by thousands of miles. They are less than 100 years older than Canada yet none of them have a problem putting their country first.

Canada's problem is that it hasn't been in danger or had to act like a unified country since WWII and most Canadians from that era are no longer with us. Unfortunately, most Canadians don't have a clue what that means.

That doesn't sound like a problem at all to me, but rather a reason why nationalism isn't needed any more. I have read that 'nations' as such were only created in the last 400 years or so, and came out of the standardization of language. If so, that would further justify the idea that it's a fake construct.

It doesn't sound like a problem as long as there is no danger but if a situation arises where this country is threatened it could become a very big problem unless we are protected by a real nation like the US who by the way is the big reason this country has never been threatened for the past 60 years.

Before nations we had empires. Egypt, Rome, Greece, Persia etc etc. If Canada comes apart it will be as many little nations or parts of it will be absorbed into someone else's nation or empire. If nationalism is not needed in Canada why would it be needed in a separate Quebec or Alberta? Why not split them up into city states like ancient Greece?

[Wilber]

I lived in Edmonton for several years and still remember the rivalry with Calgary. Kind of like Athens and Sparta but then they had a war that lasted over 20 years to decide who was top dog.

[Charles Anthony]

If nationalism is not needed in Canada why would it be needed in a separate Quebec or Alberta? Why not split them up into city states like ancient Greece?

If there was a common threat to all of the provinces, I believe both the populations of Quebec and Alberta would take up arms to fight together. That is what Europe did in the last century.

[Michael Hardner]

Why not split them up into city states like ancient Greece?

I think that that has already started to happen, in the way we think of 'places'. And I also think it's more natural. The administrative heirarchy that leads from local government all the way up to national doesn't matter as much as how we represent 'places' in the collective mind.