Why there is immigration (a real look)

[mikedavid00]

In the old days there was very little regulation and control of where you settled and lived. There were no passports or citizenship documentation. If you could offord the boat ride or long trek, you could settle where you wanted. Usually into a larger community of your own. You did what it took to fit-in and help out your new nation.

The same held true for North America. At certain points, anyone was welcome to come. The reason why is because there was so many jobs and growth possible, that the country welcomed anybody it could get to harvest the goods of the land. Anyone who came eventually did very well for themselves. In Europe, you more or less had to be born into a wealthy or noble family to have money. If you left for the America's, you could create your own riches. (of course those that came were usually the lower end of failry well off families in Europe who wanted more).

The third-world could not afford to come over - mostly Europeans came and built the USA and the north what later became Canada. Do not think about the 1900's. I'm talking earlier than that.

Eventually these Europeans became "American's" who created their own law and countries. People who wanted to stay loyal the queen moved up North and became Canadian.

Things were well for the average person in those early times; so well, in fact, that they could not find people to do the labor jobs so they imported people from the world to do these jobs. This included black slaves and chinese rail workers etc. Most slaves and rail workers came on a volunteer bases because the pay was good. (please don't argue the latter fact). This usage of poorer workers is still going on today via outsourcing.

In the mid 1900's what happened is poeple still continued to come from Europe. However, there were NO JOBS for these new people arriving. What happened is these new people coming not only could not find jobs, they also saturated the current job market and prevented born Americans from getting jobs becuase they were willing to work for less.

Also, with the advent of cheaper travel and a banking system, money could be sent back easily to bring others over of a 'lower' family class. Eventually in places like Chicago and New Yorks, ghettos were born with Irish men, Italians, Jews and others.

America created its immigration control. Non the less, people still arrived without papers - the term 'WAP' was born. Papers were still easy to fake and most all work was under the table anyway. There were also many race riots. Even Toronto was home to massive race brawls involving Greeks and Italians with thousands out on the street. Toronto like other big cities at the time had it's integration problems. Too many people came too fast. Those that were coming were also of a 'lesser' class.

People continued to come nonetheless and immigration became a problem becauses it was affecting the average American who built the country.

Eventually, America (and Canada at this time) was only interested in having people in the country who came as investers or had money. The idea was that if these people come, they will employ the unemployed. Well Jews and finally Chinese began to come in droves. No one knows if this actually helped the economy at the time.

FFWD

When the 1980's came about, travel was at it's cheapest, there was more booming, and getting an 'education' was the thing to do. An education garunteed you a white collar, well paying job. Certain things like engineering that were in huge demand could not be filled. 'American's' were still not interested in taking these courses.

Finally families that had money from the third world could now come and study in abroad and eventually get citizenship. Also many other international degrees were recognized and people were invited over to work the jobs that we couldn't fill (are you seeing the pattern yet?)

Trudeau was very tough on immigration. He had a magical utopian viewpoint, yes. Very few immigrants came here to take jobs that were in demand. My soon to be father in law told me his story when he came in 1969 and you will see that they only let him in because during that time Quebec had a shortage of teachers adn that's the only reason he was allowed to come. I *do* believe that during his era, people were not just coming here to ghettoize and change our laws; they were here to fill jobs that we couldn't. For instance, there was one study during the 1970's that claimed visible minorities made more money than the average Canadian. This is the way it should be according to France where you are not allowed to sponsor in a worker unless he makes more than the everage Frenchman.

People don't realize that the first major Canadian ghetto which was Markham Ontario in the mid 80's where from business class immigrants who were able to show 500k and got into Canada. Too many people came too fast and the first Ghetto with the intent of NOT assimilating with the rest of the country was born. The Mayor of the city at the time said it was a crisis that was happening in his city and the feds were allowing this.

Eventually, the modern Liberal Party of Canada realized that political gain could be had by allowing huge voting bloc's of immigrants into Canada and modern Canada is now born with massive floods begin let in each year.

Volpe is now calling for 500,000 poeple a year.

You know, what is my who point here. The point is, we are for the first time letting people into our country when we do not have the jobs to support these people coming in.

There are about 10,000 people a month who immigrate to Ontartio or maybe more. But when for the last 5 years we have had full time job LOSSES in the tens of thousands each quarter, then there is a problem. This doesn't just affect actual job numbers, people who would or should be working full time 'white collar' jobs are not. They are working on the poverty line.

Kids out of university no longer have the world as their oyster as they pick and choose which company to work for becuase the competition is too fierce and young Canadians are now forced to compete with grown experienced adults with multiple degrees for the same jobs - these immigratns DO take white collar jobs - don't kid yourselves. Thinking less is not making *me* the racist, but you (think about it).

Since the 1990's, we have seen the largest controlled flow of immigration per capita the world has ever seen. There is no plan in place for where they will live, where we need them; but rather just let them in and hope they vote liberal.

Harper is stuck in the akward position now that if he is not good to the immirants, he will get voted out. Any politician to be succesfull must now ponder to immigrants in a good way.

I'll skip the speech about 'the modern immigrants'. We all know that the majority settle in ghetto's, are not intested in assimilation, and have their 3rd world cultural baggage at their for-front. I don't have to explain this to anyone becuae we know this already.

My concern as it always has been; we are purposely letting in more people than we have jobs to provide for them. More people than healthcare to provide for them and their sponsored in family members. Right now the 'average' Canadian are feeling the affects through under-employement and devaluation of education.

Eventually, there won't be any real employment or any living wages to be made if the Liberals get back in and set a target for 500,000 poeple a year.

Eventually, those families who have money will pass it down and there will be a 'class system' of people who have money and don't. All jobs will be devalued and only the very very elite will have a decent wage:

Just like in the thrid world.

[Michael Hardner]

You have many errors in your post, the most obvious being that there aren't any jobs right now. Unemployment is very low at the moment.

[mikedavid00]

You have many errors in your post, the most obvious being that there aren't any jobs right now. Unemployment is very low at the moment.

You ignored the underemployment part.

And I wouldn't call 7% or even 6% 'very low'.

Let's put it this way: India has a lower unemployment rate than we do, work can always be found there, but they are all garbage jobs that you can't make a decent living off.

The average truck driver there has a university degree.

[Michael Hardner]

The average truck driver there has a university degree.

How do you know that ? That sounds pretty strange to me. Why do you think that is ?

Here's something else in your argument that doesn't make sense to me:

Eventually, the modern Liberal Party of Canada realized that political gain could be had by allowing huge voting bloc's of immigrants into Canada and modern Canada is now born with massive floods begin let in each year.

This is just supposition on your part. The US has had similar challenges growing immigration levels. Do you think Bush is doing it for votes too, or could there be another reason that both Canada and the US allow immigrants in large numbers ?

I don't hear any changes being described by the new government either. Do you think that this vote trick will work for them now that they're in power.

[PocketRocket]

An education garunteed you a white collar, well paying job.

I know, it's probably a typo, but the word "education" sitting back to back with a spelling error always makes me chuckle.

[Argus]

The average truck driver there has a university degree.

How do you know that ? That sounds pretty strange to me. Why do you think that is ?

Here's something else in your argument that doesn't make sense to me:

Eventually, the modern Liberal Party of Canada realized that political gain could be had by allowing huge voting bloc's of immigrants into Canada and modern Canada is now born with massive floods begin let in each year.

This is just supposition on your part.

I think there's plenty of evidence the Liberals have used immigration to their own benefits, even if it was to the detriment of Canada as a whole. The Liberals have portrayed themselves as the party most friendly to immigrants, and convinced many they'd never have been allowed in were it not for the Liberals. The Liberals have also organized immigrant communities. If you check, you'll find virtually every group which purports to represent the views of a given ethnic group is being paid by the federal government - ie, the Liberal Party of Canada. Not coincidentally, the views of these ethnic "representatives" coincide with Liberal Party policy. These paid representatives can be cointed on to lobby their communities on behalf of the Liberals, and to make supportive statements whenever the Liberals come out with new policy.

The US has had similar challenges growing immigration levels. Do you think Bush is doing it for votes too, or could there be another reason that both Canada and the US allow immigrants in large numbers ?

Business likes it. The larger the number of immigrants, the cheaper wages are. Big business loves immigration and always has. This is true in almost all countries. Likewise, labour hates immigration, and invariably seeks to limit it in almost all countries except Canada, and others where the union leadership is more concerned with political correctness than the well-being of their membership. Labour used to try to limit imigration to protect jobs. Now that most immigrants are visible minorities Labour has done an about face and clamours for more immigration.

I don't hear any changes being described by the new government either. Do you think that this vote trick will work for them now that they're in power.

I think changes, during a minority, will be limited to tinkering, to replacing people within the bureacracy who are too generous in accepting refugees, for example, to cracking down on those who should be deported, and other such non-parliamentary acts. The Harper government has said it is not going ahead with the announced government policy of increasing immigration to 300,000. But they have not said there are any plans to lower immigration quots. I'm guessing their intentions will only clearly be known if we see immigrations numbers slowly dropping due to in-house regulatory changes. The Tories cannot be seen to be against visible minorities due to the history of succesful scaremongering against them. An act carried out by the Liberals which would raise few eyebrows may well draw an outcry and charges of racism if done by the Tories. An obvious change they might make would be to require all would-be immigrants to learn English or French first. This was a policy announced by the Liberals a few years back, which polls showed had widespread approval, even among immigrant communities. However, there were charges, even then, of racism. The immigration "industry" opposed it, and so it was shelved.

[Rue]

Let's be very clear. Both the Liberals and Tories have exploited the immigrant vote. Mulroney was as good as they came when it came time to recruiting the ethnic vote and there's nothing wrong with that. I think the current Tory regime is in an interesting predicament because its Reform wing is not exactly pro immigration but the more moderate wing knows to win the next election they can't alienate and need to attract the immigrant vote and so yah it did not suprise me for one to see Harper suddenly making nice to the Chinese although the shrewd sob made sure to give them very little money.

That said, immigration has always been misunderstood in this country. The fact is the Canadian population has aged pretty much in a bubble and the bubble is basically with the baby boomer generation now in their late 50's and early 60's. Someone has to replace them otherwise no one will be paying into CPP and so many other government pension schemes.

The fact is if you look at the demographic profile of the country, its population is not growing fast enough, so its naive to think there is no room or need for new Canadians.

That said, people mistake the above demograophic need for more people to replace the aging baby boomers with another issue - the issue as to assimilation.

The fact is the federal government and its municipal and provincial counterparts have failed to work in a uniform manner in regards to immigration policy causing two phenomena; i-the obvious phenomena of new Canadians clustering in large cities, i.e., Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal and not spreading out to more rural or less populated areas; ii-a clear failure to properly bring in needed professionals and get them to work in their trained professions in cities and towns where they are needed.

In the case of i, this is what causes people to make generalizations and feel there are "too many immigrants" and lack of work. The fact is there is work its just that if you cluster your population opportunities to employ people and help the economy are missed and ghettoes of over-concentrated competition for the same jobs occurs.

In the case of ii, we all know the problem here. I will give you an example. My neighbour is a Christian Israeli. She is an Ear, Nose and Throat specialist. She was trained in Israel. Israel's medical system and this is a fact is far superior to anything we have in Canada. And yet she can not make the transition to her specialty let alone just become a gp in Toronto. Yet there is a shortage of gp's in Toronto and we are told only l of 10 gp's in Toronto is accepting new patients. That said, lets look at rural Ontario. We have hundreds of communities in desperate need of doctors all over rural Canada. Surely this person, should be encouraged to move to a rural area and be a doctor. Why not give her tax free status for three years to encourage this move?

The problem is of course, new Canadians cluster because they don't feel they will fit in if they go to rural areas. That of course is a vicious cycle to defeat. The Charter of Rights guarantees people the right to live where they want. On the other hand to get them to move to rural areas perhaps tax incentives are what is needed. As well, we could basically set up a government run agency to place doctors from other countries all over Canada and have them monitored by Canadian doctors and we could seriously up-date our regulations and get real and when we have doctors from other first world countries, we make it easier for them to make the transition.

That said, yes there have been some people who took advantage of the refugee determination system to avoid the regular immigration route and jump the line and many of these people are uneducated and are not making the transition very well.

However. statistics show, that the vast majority of these people not doing well, are still a minority of the refugees, the vast majority work.

Its a misnomer and the statistics from Stats Can (if you believe them) show the majority of immigrants work.

This idea that immigrants become dead-beats is a misnomer.

All that said, to understand the history of immigration in Canada since 1867, one must remember immigrants came in waves and in direct reaction to two consequences; i-weather, i.e., famine, or ii-political violence. All immigrants have come for the same reason; the opportunity to make a living and live in peace. That hasn't changed. As the planet shrinks yes there is much more movement between borders but the reasons for movement still are the same.

The fact is the demographiuc profile of Canada has changed. The fastest growing language is Spanish believe it or not and yes the Chinese and other Asian communities including those from the Indo-Pakistani region are coming in growing numbers but in fact in Canada, Latin Americans are the fastest growing

population at least right now. Toronto leads the entire world in having over 130 distinct languages spoken and the largest number of ethnic populations for one metropolis region. Winnipeg believe it or not is a very interesting break down with almost even numbers of Jamaicans (yes you heard it), Jews, Ukrainians, Filipinos and white Europeans, other then of course its aboriginal. Some of our cities are a lot more cosmopolitan then we think they are.

[Riverwind]

The fact is if you look at the demographic profile of the country, its population is not growing fast enough, so its naive to think there is no room or need for new Canadians.

An economy that depends on the population increasing forever is environmentally and socially unsustainable. All humans on this planet have to make a transition to an economic system that is stable even if the population is stable or declining. The Japanese have accepted this fact and are now trying to make this new economic paradigm work. Canada should do the same.

[Argus]

Let's be very clear. Both the Liberals and Tories have exploited the immigrant vote. Mulroney was as good as they came when it came time to recruiting the ethnic vote and there's nothing wrong with that.

Mulroney was a piker. Just like his legendary corruption was merely the manifestation of an amateur trying to duplicate the long-established system under which the Liberals had been operating.

And think about what you said. "There's nothing wrong with that". There isn't? Appealing to the immigrant communities means slanting government policy to suit foreigners. Ie, Paul Martin refused to criticise the Tamil Tigers or put them on a terrorist list in order to please Tamil immigrants. It means doing what is best politically for the party because foreigners who we call "canadians" care more about their "home" than what is best for Canada. It also means directing federal tax dollars into those ethnic immigrant communities to preserve foreign ways and cultures and languages at the expensive of a united Canada.

There assuredly IS something wrong with that.

That said, immigration has always been misunderstood in this country. The fact is the Canadian population has aged pretty much in a bubble and the bubble is basically with the baby boomer generation now in their late 50's and early 60's. Someone has to replace them otherwise no one will be paying into CPP and so many other government pension schemes.

This is a long discredited argument. The average age of immigrants is only a couple of years younger than the average age of Canadian born people.

The fact is if you look at the demographic profile of the country, its population is not growing fast enough, so its naive to think there is no room or need for new Canadians.

A silly argument. Not growing fast enough? Who says we need to grow at all. Canada was ecnonomically better off when it had twenty million than it is now. The nordic countries, all of which have far fewer people than we do now, are all better off in terms of lifestyle and wealth.

[Leafless]

A silly argument. Not growing fast enough? Who says we need to grow at all. Canada was ecnonomically better off when it had twenty million than it is now. The nordic countries, all of which have far fewer people than we do now, are all better off in terms of lifestyle and wealth.

Buisness is obviously looking for new ways to generate new financial growth and this can be accomplished via cheap labour and immigration.

The problem is high rate immigration could change the face of our existing labour market where as all or most jobs will be reduced in quality resulting a low wage labour market.

The effect of cheap labour immigration can readily be seen at this time with many Canadians accepting low wage jobs and working longer hours and weekends.

It's an unfortunate reality 'buisness' is government and there looking after themselves, screwing Canadians in the process.

Auto manufacters pull a similar stunt to sell cars or increase profits---eliminate the big block motors--sell to conserve gas with small four cylinder motors and then slowly work back up to speed, and power with increased horsepower and bigger block motors.

The suckers bite every all the time.

[mikedavid00]

I think the current Tory regime is in an interesting predicament because its Reform wing is not exactly pro immigration but the more moderate wing knows to win the next election they can't alienate and need to attract the immigrant vote and so yah it did not suprise me for one to see Harper suddenly making nice to the Chinese although the shrewd sob made sure to give them very little money.

True. You do have to admit as for as the Chinese head tax, there are stilll people alive and breathing who have paid the head tax. I think the Liberals were too afraid to do anything about it because they felt they would have to give out money to all ethnic communities so did as they do best - waffle around the issue.

That said, immigration has always been misunderstood in this country. The fact is the Canadian population has aged pretty much in a bubble and the bubble is basically with the baby boomer generation now in their late 50's and early 60's. Someone has to replace them otherwise no one will be paying into CPP and so many other government pension schemes.

You are just regurgitating what the CBC and liberal party wants you to think. Have you done any solid research into this issue? I thought not.

The fact is if you look at the demographic profile of the country, its population is not growing fast enough, so its naive to think there is no room or need for new Canadians.

Again, you have not done any solid research on this. There is a *smalll* need for workers for a *small* category of jobs, in a *small* number of provinces.

However, there is no need for 250,000 poeple to ghettoize into Toronto and Vancouver with 70% being sponsored in and from 3rd world countries.

That said, people mistake the above demograophic need for more people to replace the aging baby boomers with another issue - the issue as to assimilation..

Please, tell me when this fabled baby boomer massive retirement is going to happen. You know, the same one we've been talking about for 15 years now since I was a almost a kid and that has never happened and won't ever because it's 1 - a myth 2 - an excuse 3 - wishful thinking.

In the case of i, this is what causes people to make generalizations and feel there are "too many immigrants" and lack of work. The fact is there is work its just that if you cluster your population opportunities to employ people and help the economy are missed and ghettoes of over-concentrated competition for the same jobs occurs.

Yes there is work. There's work in India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan if you want it. They have lower unemployment rates then we do.

The issue is underemployment and wages; not wether there are 'jobs around'. We are a first world country and should continue to live this way. This country is here to provide us, the common citizen, with the finest things. That is the purpose of our country. We are hurting ourselves when we saturate our own job market and Universities with people form the outside that are not needed. hence now, the average Canadian cannot afford a decent home or fine living because our wages have been so heavily decreased due to mass immigration.

And yet she can not make the transition to her specialty let alone just become a gp in Toronto.

That's an excuse and always has been. She has to go back to school and go through the system like everyone else to get her license in Ontario. 1000's do it each year. I've known one that did it to be a Dentist. Most likely she doesn't have the financial resourses to do back to school full time and live in her house. That's life.

Just a note: Even though I don't know her, I can attest to the Dentist: He tried every canadian school offering a dental program and could not get in becuase he failed all the enterance exams. Eventually he was let into a University in Boston.

Don't think she didn't take a stab at it when she got here. If she's not a gp now, there's most likely a reason why.

Do you suggest we start a charity for her and just give her a license to practice?

Poor Christian Israelie-Canadian. Poor woman. You can't live a lavish life that you came here for because you most likely failed your entrance exams. Poor Israelie woman.

She's a Christian, Israelie, an Immigrant, a Doctor in her country, Can't find work here, is a taxi driver, AND she's a WOMAN.

Wow the CBC and Liberal party should get on this!!!!

Hey actually maybe we can give a grant to Deepa Mehta so she can make a film on the this poor woman's life coming to Canada and we can enter it in the Cann's Film Festival.

Yet there is a shortage of gp's in Toronto and we are told only l of 10 gp's in Toronto is accepting new patients.

I say this all the time: How about this - YOU give her a freeby medical license and you can let her be your gp. I'll choose someone who was educated here thank you very much.

The problem is of course, new Canadians cluster because they don't feel they will fit in if they go to rural areas.

No. They cluster becuase they have no means of integrating in with the rest of society. If you want to fit in, you learn the language, you eat our food, and you wear proper clothing. That's what happens when you WANT to fit in. I would be trying my best to fit in if I went to their countries.

This idea that immigrants become dead-beats is a misnomer.

I agree. I think the great majority of poeple don't understand just how many white color, high paying jobs that Canadians lose needlessly to immigrants. They also don't understand how hard it is to continue in with higher education becuase of the needless amount of international students clogging up the programs.

See the UofT Engineering dragon boat racing club: Engineering Club

[Michael Hardner]

You are just regurgitating what the CBC and liberal party wants you to think. Have you done any solid research into this issue? I thought not.

MikeD:

Have you done research yourself ? Where do you get the 70% from third world countries figure ?

By my count 25% are from China or Europe alone so 70% from third world countries seems high.

And I saw in the news today that unemployment is at a 32 year low. The downward pressure on wages may be of concern to you, but you should probably blame the FTA as much as the Liberals as that agreement (signed by Mulroney) started the long decline of manufacturing in Canada.

And, again, if this is a Liberal plot why are Conservative governments also using the same strategy ? Doesn't it seem like a risky strategy to you to increase Liberal support ? It does to me.

[MightyAC]

An economy that depends on the population increasing forever is environmentally and socially unsustainable. All humans on this planet have to make a transition to an economic system that is stable even if the population is stable or declining. The Japanese have accepted this fact and are now trying to make this new economic paradigm work. Canada should do the same.

Exactly. We need to start transitioning our economic and ecological policies towards those of a mature economy. The Green party seems to be the only group promoting sustainability in Canada, I wish more would listen.

[mikedavid00]

You are just regurgitating what the CBC and liberal party wants you to think. Have you done any solid research into this issue? I thought not.

Have you done research yourself ? Where do you get the 70% from third world countries figure ?

Yes I have done research and you have not. I meant to say ~70% are family sponsorship and the majoriry of immigrants are from poorer or 3rd world countries.

By my count 25% are from China or Europe alone so 70% from third world countries seems high.

Do your reasearch =)

And I saw in the news today that unemployment is at a 32 year low. The downward pressure on wages may be of concern to you, but you should probably blame the FTA as much as the Liberals as that agreement (signed by Mulroney) started the long decline of manufacturing in Canada.

Yes I don't agree with FTA either. Regardless, it still more detremental to let in the amount that we are than the FTA agreement which resulted in a period of suffering that we have gotten over. While one industry closed, new ones open. Same thing happened with US farmers in the 80's. What we CANNOT sustain is an artificial, needless, saturation of supply in our job market.

As far as unemployment goes, India's is lower than ours. It's the QUALITY of jobs and wages that matter. We need more white-collar, higher income jobs in Canada that are NOT gov't jobs. We need to have a student graduating to be able to pick and choose what company they are goign to work at - not work at the bank or in a call center.

When is the last time you heard American's complaining that Mexican's are taking their jobs? They don't complain about that because they aren't taking jobs. They are filling a labor market that no one else wants to work. American's don't 'seeing them' all over the place and taking over their neighbourhoods.

We have the latter problem AND our precious and few middle income jobs are being taken away or devalued into low paying jobs.

The reason why we have a country and borders with citizens is for selfish reasons - so that we can live in the lap of luxury and enjoy our potentials.

I get angry when aliens from other countries come here and jepordize that. I do not like seing true Canadians with degree's working in a call center or as a bank teller living in a 1400 sq. foot detatched house because their pay is so low.

I don't like seeing 460 sq ft. condo's worth $180,000 because there is such an influx of people coming into Toronto.

I don't liike seeing a Canadian graduating from high-school with 80% marks being told that their GPA is too low to get into biology or engineering because of the rediculously high rate of gifted internation students entering these programs and preventing Canadians from getting an eductation.

I don't like hearing stories of a co-worker waiting 22 hours in the emergancy room when his wife had a misscarage just so a 'tribes' of immigrants speeaking other languages were waiting in emergency for their kids with runny noses.

I don't like living in a neighbourhood where people are buying houses they cannot afford and renovating the basement with 4 cars in teh parking lot and 2 families in the house which drives bubbles up our realestate and prevents young Canadians from purchasing a half decent home.

And you know what - OUR GOV'T IS DOING THIS TO US, THE AVERAGE CANDADIAN, OVER POLITICAL POWER AND VOTES AND IT SERIOUSLY P*SSIS ME OFF.

[SirSpanky]

Just a quick $0.02 Mike.

Just because a person has a degree, does not entitle them to a high paying job. Some of the degrees offered by Uni's are just not practical. It shows a moderate amount of commitment, and a willingness to learn, but many people graduating with the prestigious and revered "degree" are numbnuts.

I'm currently finishing up my engineering degree, and I'll say this about foreign students. They pay upwards of 80% more than I do for the same eduacation. To me, that shows sacrifice and dedication. The top 3 students in my department (Electrical eng) are from Russia, and 2 from China. Nothing but respect for these people. As for preventing Canadians from getting an education; lots of schools accept anyone to these types of programs. All that is needed is your high school, then you do up a first year program at the uni. Seems fair to me.

[Michael Hardner]

Yes I have done research and you have not.

I meant to say ~70% are family sponsorship and the majoriry of immigrants are from poorer or 3rd world countries.

Your correction is noted.

By my count 25% are from China or Europe alone so 70% from third world countries seems high.

Do your reasearch =)

I did research:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pub/facts2004/index.html

I'm still waiting to see your source on the claim w.r.t. Indian truck drivers and their average education.

Don't be so presumptuous about my research when you don't even want to back up your facts.

And I saw in the news today that unemployment is at a 32 year low. The downward pressure on wages may be of concern to you, but you should probably blame the FTA as much as the Liberals as that agreement (signed by Mulroney) started the long decline of manufacturing in Canada.

Yes I don't agree with FTA either. Regardless, it still more detremental to let in the amount that we are than the FTA agreement which resulted in a period of suffering that we have gotten over. While one industry closed, new ones open. Same thing happened with US farmers in the 80's. What we CANNOT sustain is an artificial, needless, saturation of supply in our job market.

You are indeed a left-winger. Globalization, open borders and worries about depressed wages has traditionally been a concern of the NDP. That's fine.

As far as unemployment goes, India's is lower than ours. It's the QUALITY of jobs and wages that matter. We need more white-collar, higher income jobs in Canada that are NOT gov't jobs. We need to have a student graduating to be able to pick and choose what company they are goign to work at - not work at the bank or in a call center.

We have many jobs like this, but the companies don't like having to pay more than 50 or 100K for these people so they get concessions on bringing in skilled workers to do this work.

When is the last time you heard American's complaining that Mexican's are taking their jobs?

About a month ago.

They don't complain about that because they aren't taking jobs. They are filling a labor market that no one else wants to work. American's don't 'seeing them' all over the place and taking over their neighbourhoods.

Not true. Mexicans are taking factory jobs at minimum wage or lower, which angers lower/middle class people who are seeing their wages eroded.

We have the latter problem AND our precious and few middle income jobs are being taken away or devalued into low paying jobs.

Again, most of this is a lament against the business community. They would like to see minimum wages erased completely.

The reason why we have a country and borders with citizens is for selfish reasons - so that we can live in the lap of luxury and enjoy our potentials.

I get angry when aliens from other countries come here and jepordize that. I do not like seing true Canadians with degree's working in a call center or as a bank teller living in a 1400 sq. foot detatched house because their pay is so low.

I don't like seeing 460 sq ft. condo's worth $180,000 because there is such an influx of people coming into Toronto.

I don't liike seeing a Canadian graduating from high-school with 80% marks being told that their GPA is too low to get into biology or engineering because of the rediculously high rate of gifted internation students entering these programs and preventing Canadians from getting an eductation.

I don't like hearing stories of a co-worker waiting 22 hours in the emergancy room when his wife had a misscarage just so a 'tribes' of immigrants speeaking other languages were waiting in emergency for their kids with runny noses.

I don't like living in a neighbourhood where people are buying houses they cannot afford and renovating the basement with 4 cars in teh parking lot and 2 families in the house which drives bubbles up our realestate and prevents young Canadians from purchasing a half decent home.

And you know what - OUR GOV'T IS DOING THIS TO US, THE AVERAGE CANDADIAN, OVER POLITICAL POWER AND VOTES AND IT SERIOUSLY P*SSIS ME OFF.

Well, it's the way of the future so you should just get used to it. And blaming the Liberals is useless, in my opinion, because it's the same story with Conservatives, Republicans and Democrats too. In my opinion you sound like an NDP'er, which strikes me as strange because usually NDPers rage against Conservatives not Liberals.

[mikedavid00]

Just because a person has a degree, does not entitle them to a high paying job.

Not a high paying, but just a 'well paying' middle income job. It should entitle them to that as it does in the US.

Some of the degrees offered by Uni's are just not practical. It shows a moderate amount of commitment, and a willingness to learn, but many people graduating with the prestigious and revered "degree" are numbnuts.

I agree. When you hit the workplace, you will realize that poeple with your same or higher credentials "shows a moderate amount of commitment, and a willingness to perform and show talent" on the job. But you'll realize this once you get stuck with worthless co-workers. School assignments are games; performing on the job and showing your 'talent' is a whole other ball game. There's people that you are goign to work with that took sciences or even college diplomas that have vast amounts more 'talent' then your leveled co-workers. You'll see.

I'm currently finishing up my engineering degree, and I'll say this about foreign students. They pay upwards of 80% more than I do for the same eduacation.

Yes I know this. This is the price they have to pay in order to get a fast track visa into Canada and then get married and become a citizen. Internation student programs benefit everyone involved, EXCEPT for the average, working Canadian.

To me, that shows sacrifice and dedication. The top 3 students in my department (Electrical eng) are from Russia, and 2 from China.

Yes. These students also came with VERY high GPA's which drives up the entry marks for the rest of Canada who wish to take engineering. This is very good for them taking advantage of our easy internation student visa, but it hurts the rest of us.

And again, trust an older person - when you hit the work place, you will see that their rankings are meaningless. We have a math student from University of Waterloo with a very high GPA that we had to pull from a project due to simple incompetance. She's now doing data entry until her co-op term is over.

Nothing but respect for these people.

Why would you respect someone for being gifted? It's their born talent. Respect people who do good onto others - not who's family take advantage of a lax student policy.

Did you ever consider that you may not get a job when you finish your school? Did you consider that you may lose your interview to one of these people becuase of their screaming high GPA?

Did you ever consider that you have much more talent than these guys?

Did you ever consider that these students are not even 'work place literate' meaning they don't have basic communication skills in English?

I was in school too and really thought highly of alll my chinese and south asian interanation students. I wondered how one earth they got such high grades with their english and lack of studying. I now know they were simply gifted students from well off families back home. There is nothing to admire about that.

Facts are, I'm doing better than all of them and about 4 out of 30 actually got a job in their field when the graduated.

School jades you and trust me you are not in the real world yet.

(of course employers love the high credentials and these 3 may eventually become more welll off than you are due to the demographic of people in the engineering field).

What I'm saying is without knowing any of you, the fact that you write very well would make me chose you for an engineering postion if we had one. Regardless of their rankings becuase I feel that is the most important asset in the real world - especially as far as engineering is concerned.

[Argus]

You are just regurgitating what the CBC and liberal party wants you to think. Have you done any solid research into this issue? I thought not.

MikeD:

Have you done research yourself ? Where do you get the 70% from third world countries figure ?

By my count 25% are from China or Europe alone so 70% from third world countries seems high.

China IS a third world country

And I saw in the news today that unemployment is at a 32 year low. The downward pressure on wages may be of concern to you, but you should probably blame the FTA as much as the Liberals as that agreement (signed by Mulroney) started the long decline of manufacturing in Canada.

This is silly. The decline in manufacturing is not limited to Canada. It encompasses all Western nations and is related to the rise of China, Asia and now Mexico as low-wage manufacturing centres.

[Michael Hardner]

Argus:

Though the term isn't commonly used any more, China has traditionally been classified as 2nd world.

This is silly. The decline in manufacturing is not limited to Canada. It encompasses all Western nations and is related to the rise of China, Asia and now Mexico as low-wage manufacturing centres.

So my point - that you can't lay the blame for this at the feet of the Liberals - still stands.

And as for the allegation that immigration is a plot to get Liberals re-elected: has anyone ever provided evidence of this ?

I'm also still waiting for MikeDavid00 to provide evidence on the education levels of truck drivers from India. Given that he's chastised others for their lack of research, I expect him to post this soon.

[August1991]

Mike, you make numerous grotesque generalizations based on bland stereotypes. I won't detail them all but I will pick two specific facts you claim:

There are about 10,000 people a month who immigrate to Ontartio or maybe more. But when for the last 5 years we have had full time job LOSSES in the tens of thousands each quarter, then there is a problem. This doesn't just affect actual job numbers, people who would or should be working full time 'white collar' jobs are not. They are working on the poverty line.

Can you provide any evidence to support those two facts you state about immigration to Ontario and job losses? Bear in mind that you should rightly refer to net immigration and net job losses.

----

Mike, your basic premise seems to be based on zero-sum thinking. You seem to believe that immigrants come to Canada and take jobs from Canadians (people like you) or lower wages of Canadians (people like you). The world simply does not work that way because life and economics are not zero-sum affairs.

To be more specific Mike, Australia and the US follow immigration policies roughly similar to Canada. All things considered, these are successful countries. To sustain your argument, you would have to explain why the US economy has grown despite accepting immigrants.

I would be the first to say that we should change our immigration policies (starting with the entire refugee determination process). At the same time, it's obvious that Canada cannot simply fold itself up and isolate itself from the world around us. For millenia, people have been moving from place to place. That's not going to change.

[Charles Anthony]

Mike, your basic premise seems to be based on zero-sum thinking. You seem to believe that immigrants come to Canada and take jobs from Canadians (people like you) or lower wages of Canadians (people like you). The world simply does not work that way because life and economics are not zero-sum affairs.

To be more specific Mike, Australia and the US follow immigration policies roughly similar to Canada. All things considered, these are successful countries. To sustain your argument, you would have to explain why the US economy has grown despite accepting immigrants.

To play the devil's advocate, short-run transitions in every (whether labor or goods or services) market may appear as zero-sum situations. To make market transitions even more difficult, there could be demand and supply changes happening concurrently.

To illustrate, imagine being in the early days of the fur trade. A well established trapper or tanner may be infuriated by all of the new immigrants who take advantage of this huge new country called Canada. Naturally, they will say "There are not enough beavers to hunt down for everybody! They are taking our jobs!" yadda yadda yadda. Simultaneously, unbeknownst to the Canadian-born fur trader, fashions are changing in Europe. Nobody wants beaver skin hats anymore. They want mink coats (or even worse, they want polyester!). [i believe the illustration is clear but I can not resist belaboring (pardon the pun) the point some more by jumping ahead to the present. Imagine now that fashions change to having everybody opposing hunting animals for fur. Period.]

In the short run transition of the market, the Canadian trader only sees immigrants taking his job and a glut in the labor market. His employer (or broker or middleman) may just be telling him also: "I can not pay you as much as before. Times are tough because of those damn immigrants! Sorry." instead of telling him the truth: "I can not pay you as much as before. Times are tough because the demand for fur is shifting. Sorry." The little guy domestic laborer can easily be swayed.

Since we are not all dead in the long run and since our economies are sooooooo intertwined and since new demands are always created, we are always experiencing market transitions whether we know it or not. In all fairness, it is possible for MikeDavid2000 (and everybody) to be complaining about a transition in the labor market that is slow and arduous.

CAVEAT: No matter what, I am still comfortable saying: "Too bad." in the labor market because I do not impose a sense of loyalty upon anybody towards anybody else's job or livelihood.

[Michael Hardner]

I would be the first to say that we should change our immigration policies (starting with the entire refugee determination process). At the same time, it's obvious that Canada cannot simply fold itself up and isolate itself from the world around us. For millenia, people have been moving from place to place. That's not going to change.

Anguste -

Perhaps you could provide a link to the other thread where you proposed some very well-thought-out changes to the current system as an example. You, like MD2000, would like to see major changes in the system, but you have also put more effort into breaking down the problems and developing an actionable road map for change. In my opinion, anyway.

[Argus]

Argus:

Though the term isn't commonly used any more, China has traditionally been classified as 2nd world.

This is silly. The decline in manufacturing is not limited to Canada. It encompasses all Western nations and is related to the rise of China, Asia and now Mexico as low-wage manufacturing centres.

So my point - that you can't lay the blame for this at the feet of the Liberals - still stands.

Your point was that it was the fault of free trade.

And as for the allegation that immigration is a plot to get Liberals re-elected: has anyone ever provided evidence of this ?

I don't think anyone said immigration is a plot, but that the immigration system had been bastardized and changed into something that is designed more to help the Liberal Party of Canada than to help Canada itself.

What kind of evidence would you like? Secret, purloined Liberal master plan documents?

It is reasonably clear the present sytem does not benefit Canada in any way, that it actually is harmful to Canada's present and future interests. You have to then wonder why such a system continues when it is against Canada's interests. Clearly it's in SOMEBODY's Interest. And the Liberals are known, let's be honest here, for doing nothing that wasn't in their own interest. If the present immigration system was not in their interests it would have been revamped years ago.

[Argus]

Mike, you make numerous grotesque generalizations based on bland stereotypes. I won't detail them all but I will pick two specific facts you claim:

There are about 10,000 people a month who immigrate to Ontartio or maybe more. But when for the last 5 years we have had full time job LOSSES in the tens of thousands each quarter, then there is a problem. This doesn't just affect actual job numbers, people who would or should be working full time 'white collar' jobs are not. They are working on the poverty line.

Can you provide any evidence to support those two facts you state about immigration to Ontario and job losses? Bear in mind that you should rightly refer to net immigration and net job losses.

Ontario Demographics

Canada received 244,600 immigrants — of which Ontario received 130,000 — in Census year 2004-05.

The preliminary estimate for total emigration from Ontario is 20,100 in 2004-05.

As for the loss of full-time employment, there's too much economic news to google it easily, however, I consistently find information about losses in manufacturing, and losses in full-time work being "offset" by growth of part-time work. Losses in the manufacturing sector being "offset" by gains in the food services sector and the like. I don't think it's unlikely that Ontario, being the centre of manufacturing, has suffered heavily over the last five years from the shift to offshore, low wage countries. Replacing that with service jobs - which are typically lower paid and without benefits - is just not healthy in the long term.

Mike, your basic premise seems to be based on zero-sum thinking. You seem to believe that immigrants come to Canada and take jobs from Canadians (people like you) or lower wages of Canadians (people like you). The world simply does not work that way because life and economics are not zero-sum affairs.

You love that "zero sum" thing, don't you?

The problem, economically, is when immigrants come here who are low-skilled or no-skilled, and either can't get work, or get only low wage, low skilled work. Such people do not contribute enough in taxation to make up for their drag on the country in government services.

That, of course, goes on top of increased urban sprawl, increased pollution, increased crowding, particularly in areas like southern Ontario, cultural fragmentation, terrorism, increased crime and the like.

And no one has managed to give a reasonable, logical reason why immigration is being sustained at this level. Other than to benefit the Liberal party, of course, and the business elites who like to see wages depressed by desperate newcomers.

[Michael Hardner]

Your point was that it was the fault of free trade.

Okay. Well, do you not think that the FTA initiated the decline of manufacturing in Canada and the US, and was further helped by global trade agreements ?

I don't think anyone said immigration is a plot, but that the immigration system had been bastardized and changed into something that is designed more to help the Liberal Party of Canada than to help Canada itself.

Well, that's a step back from this statement:

"Eventually, the modern Liberal Party of Canada realized that political gain could be had by allowing huge voting bloc's of immigrants into Canada and modern Canada is now born with massive floods begin let in each year."

But still, it's all supposition.

I confess that I used to de-humanize people with different political views, in my imagination. I eventually found it to be a healthier alternative to assume that most people truly believe in doing the right thing, and to argue them on the facts rather than my suppositions on their character. Then again, I never debated with politicians on these boards.

What kind of evidence would you like? Secret, purloined Liberal master plan documents?

Some kind of basis for this suspicion, outside of a general prejudice against anything liberal. Do you think that the Republicans in the US have similar motivations ? If not, then it's a matter of distrust, amplified by peoples' own biases.

It is reasonably clear the present sytem does not benefit Canada in any way, that it actually is harmful to Canada's present and future interests. You have to then wonder why such a system continues when it is against Canada's interests. Clearly it's in SOMEBODY's Interest. And the Liberals are known, let's be honest here, for doing nothing that wasn't in their own interest. If the present immigration system was not in their interests it would have been revamped years ago.

Your own quote:

"Business likes it. The larger the number of immigrants, the cheaper wages are. Big business loves immigration and always has. "

It appears to me that the mystery has been unlocked.