Ethicist stands her ground

[sharkman]

What if it's not "irrational"? What if the statistics showed that gay men were considerably more likely, by an order of magnitide, to have a sexual interest in adolescent boys, than straight men were to have a sexual interest in adolescent girls? Would it still be irrational?

Do you have credible data beyond your hypothetical "what ifs?"

If there WERE such statistics, would that fear be irrational or not?

It appears that you are only allowed to think suspicious thoughts if religious people are close to the children. Ah, strike that, most religions are okay except for the big C(christianity). You can express all kinds of doubts about that phobia free, but if you even look a a gay the wrong way (whatever that might be) you're a major 'phobe' who has serious fear and hate issues, depending on the accuser.

Of course the truth is you'll never find much in the way of data on gay vs straight molesting, since then you'd be guilty of a phobia and you'd find your funding dry up.

[Guest Warwick Green]

What if it's not "irrational"? What if the statistics showed that gay men were considerably more likely, by an order of magnitide, to have a sexual interest in adolescent boys, than straight men were to have a sexual interest in adolescent girls? Would it still be irrational?

Do you have credible data beyond your hypothetical "what ifs?"

If there WERE such statistics, would that fear be irrational or not?

It appears that you are only allowed to think suspicious thoughts if religious people are close to the children. Ah, strike that, most religions are okay except for the big C(christianity). You can express all kinds of doubts about that phobia free, but if you even look a a gay the wrong way (whatever that might be) you're a major 'phobe' who has serious fear and hate issues, depending on the accuser.

Of course the truth is you'll never find much in the way of data on gay vs straight molesting, since then you'd be guilty of a phobia and you'd find your funding dry up.

Not being gay I can only speculate but in anti-gay circles you see allegations that gays are pedophile, have health problems, have violent and unstable relationships. The "evidence" for this seems questionable at best. I think what gays are after are to be treated like we would all like to be - as individuals. To paraphrase Martin Luther King - judge people on the content of their character not on their sexual orientation, or any other such charcateristic for that matter either.

Gays are not the first group to be judged on generalizations - I have heard similar comments made over the years about other groups too.

[Liam]

... I could not possibly care less what gays do to, with or among themselves in their bedrooms. Honestly. They can invite goats and cattle in there for all I care. That doesn't mean I have my doubts when they press for degrees of public acceptance and respect for them not as PEOPLE but as HOMOSEXUALS. I can acknowledge anyone's right to equality to a certain extent (arrogant bastard that I am) but demanding respect is something else again, demanding I acknowledge that your sexual lifestyle is perfectly fine with me means I'm REQUIRED to make a judgement, rather than just ignoring it as none of my business, as I should. And since that lifestyle/behaviour is not something I would ever do (for obvious reasons) how am I suppose to respect and wholeheartedly approve of it?...

The idea of kissing a man is repugnant to me, culturally and instinctively. Bleh! Disgusting! I want no part of that. So what? That's my heterosexual judgement. I don't want to kiss goats or gays...

Does that make me homphobic? One of the guys running for mayor soon is openly gay and I'm seriously considering voting for him. So just what does homophobia actually entail?

As a gay man, I couldn't give two sh_ts whether or not you accept me or whether or not you respect me. To be honest, there are a heck of a lot of straight people I have zero respect for. But you know what? Just because I don't respect them does not mean that I think the state should treat them differently.

Are you a homophobe? I often wonder why people who claim to not be homophobes often liken being gay to bestiality or will frequently use bestiality imagery in the dialogue.

[Liam]

I don't trust gays around young boys...

Gay sexual culture is fixated on youth to an even greater extent than heterosexual culture. The younger you appear, the more like a smooth chested boy you are, the more popular you'll be in every gay club, bar and bathhouse...

For someone who claims revulsion at the thought of kissing a man, you sure seem to have a pretty firm idea of the goings-on inside gay bars and bathhouses.

[Liam]

I believe the percentage of straight men who would like to fool around with young girls is much lower than the percentage of gay men who would like to fool around with young boys. That statement doesn't mean I am scared of gays, it means I feel gay men shouldn't be around young boys in certain situations. Say, like in the showers.

I also believe that with young girl clubs, men aren't in places of authority anyhow. No one's complained that their girl has not been supervised by a man as far as I've heard, and by the same token, young boys shouldn't be supervised by adults who may be sexually aroused by them.

At any rate, the subject at hand is the Boy Scouts, there are no young girls there.

This is truly sick. I'll give you an out in that you stated it was your belief and not that it was fact. However, I think you seriously need to question your beliefs. I have never known a gay man who has liked boys. I have, however, known straight men who had odd fixations on girls much much younger than they were. Ever hear of "Lolita" or see "American Beauty"? In college, one of the guys down the hall from me was obsessed with Alyssa Milano when she was no more than 12. Applying your logic to my life experiences, I can say that straight men have a much greater predisposition to molesting little girls than gay men do to young boys.

[Argus]

Of course the truth is you'll never find much in the way of data on gay vs straight molesting, since then you'd be guilty of a phobia and you'd find your funding dry up.

Not being gay I can only speculate but in anti-gay circles you see allegations that gays are pedophile, have health problems, have violent and unstable relationships. The "evidence" for this seems questionable at best. I think what gays are after are to be treated like we would all like to be - as individuals. To paraphrase Martin Luther King - judge people on the content of their character not on their sexual orientation, or any other such charcateristic for that matter either.

The problem is we don't make rules or laws for individuals. They have to be made for the group, and with the group in mind.

[Argus]

I believe the percentage of straight men who would like to fool around with young girls is much lower than the percentage of gay men who would like to fool around with young boys. That statement doesn't mean I am scared of gays, it means I feel gay men shouldn't be around young boys in certain situations. Say, like in the showers.

I also believe that with young girl clubs, men aren't in places of authority anyhow. No one's complained that their girl has not been supervised by a man as far as I've heard, and by the same token, young boys shouldn't be supervised by adults who may be sexually aroused by them.

At any rate, the subject at hand is the Boy Scouts, there are no young girls there.

This is truly sick. I'll give you an out in that you stated it was your belief and not that it was fact. However, I think you seriously need to question your beliefs. I have never known a gay man who has liked boys.

Oh please. Does the term "twinks" mean anything to you? Ephebophiliia is common in the gay community.

[sharkman]

It's sick, I know, but it's real. Here's a link that shows man boy love.

[Guest Warwick Green]

Not being gay I can only speculate but in anti-gay circles you see allegations that gays are pedophile, have health problems, have violent and unstable relationships. The "evidence" for this seems questionable at best. I think what gays are after are to be treated like we would all like to be - as individuals. To paraphrase Martin Luther King - judge people on the content of their character not on their sexual orientation, or any other such charcateristic for that matter either.

The problem is we don't make rules or laws for individuals. They have to be made for the group, and with the group in mind.

It's true we have made laws for groups - like human rights statutes and employment equity, as examples - but only in order to combat discrimination. I wish we didn't have to have such laws.

But we don't have think of people in group terms - like "He's a black (or a Jew, or an Arab etc)" I would hope we could judge each individual on his or her own merits. When I see a gay (or a Catholic priest for that matter) I hope I never get to a situation where I think of a sexual predator.

[Argus]

I believe the percentage of straight men who would like to fool around with young girls is much lower than the percentage of gay men who would like to fool around with young boys. That statement doesn't mean I am scared of gays, it means I feel gay men shouldn't be around young boys in certain situations. Say, like in the showers.

I also believe that with young girl clubs, men aren't in places of authority anyhow. No one's complained that their girl has not been supervised by a man as far as I've heard, and by the same token, young boys shouldn't be supervised by adults who may be sexually aroused by them.

At any rate, the subject at hand is the Boy Scouts, there are no young girls there.

This is truly sick. I'll give you an out in that you stated it was your belief and not that it was fact. However, I think you seriously need to question your beliefs. I have never known a gay man who has liked boys. I have, however, known straight men who had odd fixations on girls much much younger than they were. Ever hear of "Lolita" or see "American Beauty"?

On homosexuals and boys

# Homosexual Alfred Kinsey, the preeminent sexual researcher in the history of sexual research, found in 1948 that 37 percent of all male homosexuals admitted to having sex with children under 17 years old.4

# A very recent (2000) study published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior found that "The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2-4% of men attracted to adults prefer men. In contrast, around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 620 times higher among pedophiles."5

# Another 2000 study in the Archives of Sexual Behavior found that". . . all but 9 of the 48 homosexual men preferred the youngest two male age categories" for sexual activity;' These age categories were fifteen and twenty years old.6

# Yet another recent study in the Archives of Sexual Behavior found that "Pedophilia appears to have a greater than chance association with two other statistically infrequent phenomena. The first of these is homosexuality . . . Recent surveys estimate the prevalence of homosexuality, among men attracted to adults, in the neighborhood of 2%. In contrast, the prevalence of homosexuality among pedophiles may be as high as 30-40%."7

# A 1989 study in the Journal of Sex Research noted that " . . . the proportion of sex offenders against male children among homosexual men is substantially larger than the proportion of sex offenders against female children among heterosexual men . . . the development of pedophilia is more closely linked with homosexuality than with heterosexuality."8

# A 1988 study of 229 convicted child molesters published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior found that 86% of pedophiles described themselves as homosexual or bisexual.9

# In a 1984 Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy article, sex researchers found that "The proportional prevalence of [male] offenders against male children in this group of 457 offenders against children was 36 percent."10

# Homosexual activists Karla Jay and I Allen Young revealed in their 1979 Gay Report that 73% of all homosexuals I have acted as "chicken hawks" — that is, they have preyed on adolescent or younger boys.11

# In a 1992 study published in the Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy, sex researchers K. Freud and R. I. Watson found that homosexual males are three times more likely than straight men to engage in pedophilia, and that the average pedophile victimizes between 20 and 150 boys before being arrested.12

# A study by sex researchers Alan Bell and Martin Weinberg found that 25% of white homosexual men have had sex with boys sixteen years and younger.13

[newbie]

# Homosexual Alfred Kinsey, the preeminent sexual researcher in the history of sexual research, found in 1948 that 37 percent of all male homosexuals admitted to having sex with children under 17 years old.4

# A very recent (2000) study published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior found that "The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2-4% of men attracted to adults prefer men. In contrast, around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 620 times higher among pedophiles."5

# Another 2000 study in the Archives of Sexual Behavior found that". . . all but 9 of the 48 homosexual men preferred the youngest two male age categories" for sexual activity;' These age categories were fifteen and twenty years old.6

# Yet another recent study in the Archives of Sexual Behavior found that "Pedophilia appears to have a greater than chance association with two other statistically infrequent phenomena. The first of these is homosexuality . . . Recent surveys estimate the prevalence of homosexuality, among men attracted to adults, in the neighborhood of 2%. In contrast, the prevalence of homosexuality among pedophiles may be as high as 30-40%."7

# A 1989 study in the Journal of Sex Research noted that " . . . the proportion of sex offenders against male children among homosexual men is substantially larger than the proportion of sex offenders against female children among heterosexual men . . . the development of pedophilia is more closely linked with homosexuality than with heterosexuality."8

# A 1988 study of 229 convicted child molesters published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior found that 86% of pedophiles described themselves as homosexual or bisexual.9

# In a 1984 Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy article, sex researchers found that "The proportional prevalence of [male] offenders against male children in this group of 457 offenders against children was 36 percent."10

# Homosexual activists Karla Jay and I Allen Young revealed in their 1979 Gay Report that 73% of all homosexuals I have acted as "chicken hawks" — that is, they have preyed on adolescent or younger boys.11

# In a 1992 study published in the Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy, sex researchers K. Freud and R. I. Watson found that homosexual males are three times more likely than straight men to engage in pedophilia, and that the average pedophile victimizes between 20 and 150 boys before being arrested.12

# A study by sex researchers Alan Bell and Martin Weinberg found that 25% of white homosexual men have had sex with boys sixteen years and younger.13

Wow, who better to know this info than a Catholic publication, given that their organization is one of the biggest contributers to homosexual pedophilia.

[Argus]

Wow, who better to know this info than a Catholic publication, given that their organization is one of the biggest contributers to homosexual pedophilia.

I realize you meant that as a sort of snide dismissal of what was written but I happen to agree with you.

Who better, indeed?

[injusticebuster]

When Halpern wanted to marry his same sex partner, the court ruled refusal violated their dignity.

When a dying father asked the Ontario Human Rights Commission to give him more time to comply with the strict 15 day deadline, Ontario Human Rights Commissioner Norton denied it on spot.

The Ontario Human Rights Commission decided it it was a priority to guarantee a right to party for lesbians in the bathhouse than to save a life of a father.

When a crippled by illness father attempting to support his family was harassed, intimidated, reprised by a lesbian manger for enforcing his right to be accommodated, the Ontario Human Rights Commission told the sick father to quit because it "does not like that type of cases" and its priority was to guarantee a right to party for lesbians in the bathhouse .

Now lesbians earn enough money to celebrate and pay for a sick father's CPP disability .

[Liam]

Can I ask what any of this has to do with Somerville's honorary degree?

[Black Dog]

Nonsense. Very few gays will ever get married, and fewer still will stay that way more than a year. The gay community and its backers want gay marriage not out of equality but a sense of respect, a sense of recognition from the community that they are equal, that their relitionships are the same, that they are in no way considered odd or abnormal. It's all about their need for respect from the community.

Legal equality is no doubt an important first step in earning respect. But there is no desire on th epart of the gay community to force you to respect them. That's your own paranoia at work.

I have no doubt you have a great deal of comfort in throwing that label around at just about everyone.

Nooo. Just people who equate homosexuals with predators.

No, didn't say so. I do think, however, that this fixation in gay culture leads to a considerably higher degree of sexual interest in adolescent and pre-pubescent boys than you'll find in the straight community. I don't know that anyone has ever studied why, though I'd posit that heterosexual adults are seldom interested in females who are not physically developed while the same external sexual characterstics are lacking in adolescent/prepubescent boys.

In any event, I believe that it all leads to a considerably higher danger of sexual behaviour and interaction from gay men with pubescent boys than exists between straight men and pubescent girls. The latter does happen, but normally under the influence of a lot of alcohol.

IOW, you have no evidence, just your own predjudices at work. Anyway, this is logicaly unsound: the objectification of youth does not necessarily mean gays are more likely to be sexually interested in actual adolescent and pre-pubescent boys.

The statistics are not comparable.

Most straight men who molest children do so within the family. There we have a close interaction of people, and often under behaviour influenced by drugs or alcohol.

That is not what we're discussing. We're discussing the kind of man who would join the boy scouts, for example, to be around a bunch of pubescent and adolescent boys, in other words, a cold, deliberate sort of stalking. These people are invariably gay (pedophiles who prey on boys are gay, no matter what anyone says to the contrary).

We've been through this before (notably in the NAMBLA threads), but your last statement is not only bad arguing, it's incorrect. Pedophiles tend to be married men who prey on girls, although many pedophiles abuse both girls and boys. The age, not sexuality of the victim is the key.

Oh please. Does the term "twinks" mean anything to you? Ephebophiliia is common in the gay community

Ephebophilia refers only to an attraction, not to actual sexual relations. I don't see any reason why homosexuals would have a disproportionately higher likliehood of taking that cultural fixation to its extreme conclusion than heterosexuals who are also bombareded wih images of sexualized youth.

[Shady]

Wow, who better to know this info than a Catholic publication, given that their organization is one of the biggest contributers to homosexual pedophilia

Personally, I would think that homosexuals are the biggest contributers to homosexual pedophilia.

[Shady]

Welcome to the Home Page of the North American Man/Boy Love Association

Our goal is to end the oppression of men and boys who have freely chosen, mutually consensual relationships

NAMBLA

Sickening.

[Liam]

Yes, it is sickening, but it is a pedophilic organization, not a gay organization. Not one gay group would "sign on" with the likes of NAMBLA.

But I have to get back to something I posted earlier -- what does ANY of this have to do with Somerville's receiving an honorary degree? What does any of the have to do with SSMs v. CUs?

[Shady]

Yes, it is sickening, but it is a pedophilic organization, not a gay organization

No. It's a pedophilic organization, and a gay organization. It's men loving boys, not men loving girls.

[Black Dog]

It's a sham is what it is. We've been over this NAMBLA crap before.

[Liam]

Yes, it is sickening, but it is a pedophilic organization, not a gay organization

No. It's a pedophilic organization, and a gay organization. It's men loving boys, not men loving girls.

Believe what you will, but answer my question: what does any of this have to do with Somerville, SSM or civil unions? I really have no idea what the point of all this line of discussion is...? Is your point that because some gay people are sick pedophiles that all gay people are sick pedophiles? Or is it that because some gay people are sick pedophiles that it is a reason to deny an entire group's access to marriage or civil unions or that this has any bearing at all on the Ryerson issue?

[sharkman]

Yes, it is sickening, but it is a pedophilic organization, not a gay organization

No. It's a pedophilic organization, and a gay organization. It's men loving boys, not men loving girls.

Believe what you will, but answer my question: what does any of this have to do with Somerville, SSM or civil unions? I really have no idea what the point of all this line of discussion is...? Is your point that because some gay people are sick pedophiles that all gay people are sick pedophiles? Or is it that because some gay people are sick pedophiles that it is a reason to deny an entire group's access to marriage or civil unions or that this has any bearing at all on the Ryerson issue?

Nuthin'. Usually after the second page, threads tend to evolve. You've done some wandering yourself in other threads, haven't you? We've tackled the gay issue at large and I think both sides have scored points. For me the centerpiece was the post that found actual data on child molesters, gay vs straight. I feel this because no one could come up with opposing data, so they tried character assassination of the study instead.

[Guest Warwick Green]

No. It's a pedophilic organization, and a gay organization. It's men loving boys, not men loving girls.

Are these guys any worse than the creeps that molest their six-year old daughters?

[Liam]

Nuthin'. Usually after the second page, threads tend to evolve. You've done some wandering yourself in other threads, haven't you? We've tackled the gay issue at large and I think both sides have scored points. For me the centerpiece was the post that found actual data on child molesters, gay vs straight. I feel this because no one could come up with opposing data, so they tried character assassination of the study instead.

Sure, I've wandered in various threads and I understand that this happens quite a bit. I never bothered to respond to the "studies" (put up by the Catholic Church to absolve themselves of their criminal activity during a child rape scandal) primarily because I felt doing so would only push the topic farther afield than it had already wandered (not because I don't find fault with them). I'd be more than happy to debate the findings if someone wants to start that thread elsewhere, but I think this thread has now already morphed into something it wasn't at the start.

But let me ask you this then... Even if every word of those studies are true, is the point of posting them to justify not treating gay people equally or is it merely an exercise in character assassination of gay people? Seriously, answer the question.

[sharkman]

Nuthin'. Usually after the second page, threads tend to evolve. You've done some wandering yourself in other threads, haven't you? We've tackled the gay issue at large and I think both sides have scored points. For me the centerpiece was the post that found actual data on child molesters, gay vs straight. I feel this because no one could come up with opposing data, so they tried character assassination of the study instead.

Sure, I've wandered in various threads and I understand that this happens quite a bit. I never bothered to respond to the "studies" (put up by the Catholic Church to absolve themselves of their criminal activity during a child rape scandal) primarily because I felt doing so would only push the topic farther afield than it had already wandered (not because I don't find fault with them). I'd be more than happy to debate the findings if someone wants to start that thread elsewhere, but I think this thread has now already morphed into something it wasn't at the start.

But let me ask you this then... Even if every word of those studies are true, is the point of posting them to justify not treating gay people equally or is it merely an exercise in character assassination of gay people? Seriously, answer the question.

I think each individual's behaviour should be the determiner of their character, not what they are. That being said, the gay agenda is to combat every law or organization that they feel restricts or opposes them. A problem arises for some when it becomes obvious they can see no wrong within their ranks whatsoever. The Catholic church has been made to look at it's faults and it has made some huge steps. The Gay movement has not and refuses to consider any accusations as anything but homophobia.