Caledonia problem didnt arise overnight

[Kindred]

I have already concurred with that, it did indeed become the purpose of residential schools, however the original purpose and motivation was the high mortality rate of Indian infants. In that it succeeded, mortality rates dropped remarkedly, thus ensuring the survival of Indians. Prior to residential schools the mortality rate was somewhere around 80 per 1000 births, and dropped to around 10 per 1000 births.

There was also an issue of vacinating indian children againt TB which wasnt successful until they were in residential schools.

I am not quoting exact figures here, I am trying to "remember" and my brain is tired from too much information in it. I HAVE studied residential schools, Canadian history, native history -

I was never allowed to use my traditional language in school or anywhere other than in our home, and even there my parents didnt encourage it - society never supported me in preserving my culture.

Hell I was told by a teacher that it was "wrong" for me to give my children fish for breakfast ! She had the nerve to tell me they would be better off on cold winter mornings to start the day with a bowl of nice cold Trix or Fruit Loops or some God awful crap so many people feed their kids -- hot soup and fish was apparently on par with child abuse or something ........ Apparently putting toddlers on skis is right up there too as "not normal" behavior in terms of parental behavior ---

But thats really being picky and small minded compared to the trauma suffered by children removed from their parents. Still its something the British do willingly to their children, as do many parents in Canada.

On a flight to Victoria I saw next to a very unhappy little boy from Calgary who was on his way to an upper class elite boarding school. I dont understand it as I fully support that concept of "the village" raising children and mourn the loss of this valuable resource in todays society.

I want to emphasize a "healthy village" environment

But it is history, its something that started out with good intentions and then the fanatics and nuts got hold of it - the pedophiles, and while I concur some abuses did occur I do NOT support the claim that ALL Indian children were sexually abused - to that I say Horse Shit - didnt happen. Its become one more cash grab and innocent people are being victimized --

And by victims I also mean Indian people who are being brain washed into having false memories that are impacting on their mental and emotional health - and undermining their independence and determination.

Yes there was some abuse, deplorable yes, but its been blown way out of proportion. And is being used as a crutch to avoid self responsibility for ones own well being and successes -

Jews coming out of concentration camps went on to build very successful businesses, havesuccessful families, etc. Their treatment was way way more horrendous .... we dont see the same multi generational trauma and ineffectiveness resulting from the abuses they suffered.

The problem is a learned sense of trauma and ineffectiveness , a dwelling on the past, there is a collective sense of helplessness that is fostered and nurtured generation after generation - when your whole entire focus from the time you are born is that you are a victim and nothing else you become helpless and hopeless. I'm sorry but its one great pity party that is hurting the indians more then it is hurting anyone else.

What would happen if Indian children were told that they are intelligent, valuable little people who can be anything and do anything they want to instead of being told "there is no point in trying to get anywhere because you are Indian and the white man wont let you be successful?"

Standing on a barricade, attending entitlement meetings, hearing their elders go on and on about how oppresed and abused and down trodden they are is NOT teaching children what they need to succeed - they need strong mentors NOT "victims" shaping their future and leading them....

[betsy]

Your language, culture and customs were not taken from you.

This is exactly what the purpose of residential schools was.

Which happened with the blessing or cooperation of the natives. The given implication was that this culture, language and customs were all taken by force, and that the natives were helpless about it.

It is imposiible to believe the natives could not have done anything about that when they were able to enter into treatise and agreements...which no doubt had involved negotiations on both sides.

As I said, both sides had good reasons at that time...and obviously the native leaders saw something good for their people.

[gc1765]

Your language, culture and customs were not taken from you.

This is exactly what the purpose of residential schools was.

Which happened with the blessing or cooperation of the natives.

No. Where did you get this idea? Natives were forced to attend residential schools and were punished when they used their own language.

[betsy]

The problem is a learned sense of trauma and ineffectiveness , a dwelling on the past, there is a collective sense of helplessness that is fostered and nurtured generation after generation - when your whole entire focus from the time you are born is that you are a victim and nothing else you become helpless and hopeless. I'm sorry but its one great pity party that is hurting the indians more then it is hurting anyone else.

What would happen if Indian children were told that they are intelligent, valuable little people who can be anything and do anything they want to instead of being told "there is no point in trying to get anywhere because you are Indian and the white man wont let you be successful?"

Standing on a barricade, attending entitlement meetings, hearing their elders go on and on about how oppresed and abused and down trodden they are is NOT teaching children what they need to succeed - they need strong mentors NOT "victims" shaping their future and leading them....

And I think about that too, and even mentioned in one of the threads that I wouldn't be surprised at all if that is the root cause of a high suicide rate among the Indian youths.

The future indeed look quite bleak for any growing child to be "programmed" into thinking and believing that everything and everyone is against him.

Just imagine all that bottled anger and hopelessness brewing inside him.

[Kindred]

I usually agree with what you say Betsy but I have read enough history and talked to enough people to believe that the children were seized and removed to residential schools, to ensure their survival but not with the consent of most of their parents. I say most parents because some did want their children educated and some children went willingly - conditions on most reserves were terrible at that time.

Either way what did happen was that because the children were removed from remote reserves in many cases, the parents werent able to see their children - travel was too difficult. I believe visits were discouraged, and names were certainly changed to anglacise the children.

Of that I have no doubt because the damn teachers from NA in China, Japan, India, Korea etc are STILL doing it and giving the students "western names" and I am SO opposed to this ! The kids are allowed to pick their name, which makes for some interesting names such as Zorro - but I think its the first step to removing a childs identity and ties to their family and culture. The big excuse is that the names are too hard to pronounce, get real....... it only takes a small effort on our part to learn them .... so many beautiful names changed to "Doris" or "Vivian" My apologies to any Doris's or Vivians, its only my example - and no insult intended

[betsy]

No. Where did you get this idea? Natives were forced to attend residential schools and were punished when they used their own language.

Kindred and gc1765, can you please explain to me:

How did it got to be that way?

What have the native leaders done about it? If there were some treatise signed, I assume that talks and negotiations were possible between leaders of both sides.

Were the native leaders compliant about this residential school system? Because if they were, that is what I meant about it happening with the blessing and cooperation of the natives.

[Kindred]

I dont know for sure, I think the Government with the backup of the police just went and seized the children from the reserves. I believe one of the reasons was TB and wanting to vacinate the children.

1847

Egerton Ryerson's study of Native education, undertaken at the request of the Assistant Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, under the Imperial Government, became the model for future Indian Residential Schools (IRS). Ryerson recommended that the schools provide domestic education, religious instruction for the Indian, for "nothing can be done to improve and elevate his character and condition without the aid of religious feeling..." The recommended focus was on agricultural training; and the government would control the schools only through inspections of them, reports from them and grants to them on the basis of the inspections and reports.

check it out here http://www.irsr-rqpi.gc.ca/english/historical_events.html

It says parental approval was required but I am not sure

[Kindred]

What clouds the issue and credibility is that indian kids went to my schools, yet one who was voted Prom Queen claims she went to a residential school, for her whole life, where she was constantly sexually and emotionally abused -

She went to highschool with me, and to elementary school with other students I knew in High School. she wrote an article on the abuses she suffered that was published in a well known women's magazine and it was all lies.

Its do damn dishonest. Indians were attending school with non-indian children as far back as the 1950's so its pretty hard to figure out what is real/true and what isnt.

[betsy]

What clouds the issue and credibility is that indian kids went to my schools, yet one who was voted Prom Queen claims she went to a residential school, for her whole life, where she was constantly sexually and emotionally abused -

She went to highschool with me, and to elementary school with other students I knew in High School. she wrote an article on the abuses she suffered that was published in a well known women's magazine and it was all lies.

Its do damn dishonest. Indians were attending school with non-indian children as far back as the 1950's so its pretty hard to figure out what is real/true and what isnt.

Although there had been abuses that took place, there were others who had seized the golden opportunity to make a buck (or to promote their own agenda)....to the point of telling lies.

[betsy]

Were the native leaders compliant about this residential school system? Because if they were, that is what I meant about it happening with the blessing and cooperation of the natives.

"Special Treatment for Aboriginal Children TOP

The Residential School System

Since the time of earliest contact, Aboriginal people and European settlers have seen things from vastly divergent points of view, because their attitudes and philosophies differed. The interaction of the two groups has been characterized as one of "COOPERATION and CONFLICT BUT, MORE IMPORTANTLY, BY MISCONCEPTIONS AND CONTRADICTIONS."4

One of the first, and perhaps the most enduring, of these misconceptions was that:

Europeans assumed the superiority of their culture over that of any Aboriginal peoples. Out of that misconception grew the European conviction that in order for the Indians to survive, they would have to be assimilated into the European social order.5"

http://www.ajic.mb.ca/volumel/chapter14.html#2

[betsy]

What clouds the issue and credibility is that indian kids went to my schools, yet one who was voted Prom Queen claims she went to a residential school, for her whole life, where she was constantly sexually and emotionally abused -

She went to highschool with me, and to elementary school with other students I knew in High School. she wrote an article on the abuses she suffered that was published in a well known women's magazine and it was all lies.

Its do damn dishonest. Indians were attending school with non-indian children as far back as the 1950's so its pretty hard to figure out what is real/true and what isnt.

I think she speaks with forked tongue.

Somebody just told me that instead of treating the alleged abuses on one-to-one case reviews, our ever so practical and sensible Liberal government had decided to just give a blanket compensation for everyone!

I think I am a native (at least I look like one)...and if my memory serves me right, I grew up in a residential school. Oh the conditions were so horrible!

Someone please help. Where do I sign up for this cheque?

[Kindred]

Actually my Dermatologist says "lady with skin like yours there is a native somewhere in your background" Do I qualify? I attended the same school as the native woman who claims it was a residential school and she was so abused, I can bring my Year Book with me to show both of us at the same school --

Wow - maybe I am onto something here.

Seriously though, thats just stupid, as I said before I know an Indian youth who was approached by a lawyer and told if he lied and said he was in a residential school he could make some money ........ and of course the lawyer gets his cut ..........

Come on we want to be FAIR but the blanket of lies has to stop -

I read one website on domestic abuse on reserves that attributed it to the Indians "adopting a European lifestyle and values". Yup that it all the "Europeans/white" beat the shit out of their wives and children -

[saga]

How have the Indians contributed to society in Canada? Any real examples?

If your going to say they fought along side us in the Great Wars, then it's just as justified to have a Chinese or Black or even White day. I really don't see what makes them so special compared to all the other races that built Canada that they deserve all this extra treatment.

Sounds like appeasement to me.

This is about the history of the land we call Canada ... and pre-history.

Pre-European ... pre-contact ...

Millions of people lived here ... Indigenous (First, original) people of Turtle Island (North America). They lived in Villages all over our land, in the most beautiful spots of course ... like Toronto Islands.

They moved their villages every twenty years to avoid playing out the earth, if they were farmers, or the fish, etc ... practiced sophisticated conservation methods.

Over the thousands of years ... 12,000 or more ...(we are a small 500 year blip in their long existence) they evolved into societies with participatory democracies where the people discussed ... respectfully ... and came to consensus ... and their leaders were chosen by clan mothers ... and they allied with other communities and warred against others ... and developed strong large scale governance over broad areas for peace among their nations. Six Nations Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) Confederacy Council is one of these traditional governments, a thousand years old and thriving again.

When Europeans arrived, Indigenous people were interested in their technologies and methods and trade, and allied with them through several treaties and Royal Proclamations, as sovereign nations.

European presence here decimated Indigenous people with diseases they had no resistance to. Haudenosaunee allied with Britain in Canada and fought in the war of 1812, and without them we would be American today

And more treatys ... and then the land started disappearing and their kids were tortured in residential schools and the next generation and the next generation... 6 generations of poverty, abuse, deterioration of a people ... And now that is all illegal and Canada is exposed ... And they are stronger and they are awesome ... and they want their treaty land back, where it is legally attainable, money where it is not, and they want to govern themsleves as sovereign nations again ... as per the treaties.

It is a legal thing. Canada denied them their land rights and treaty rights for a long time, trying to get rid of them ... turn them into Canadians but they did not choose to be Canadians like our families.

The government unlawfully made them surrender the land, so now the government (we) needs to pay up.

So ... the short answer is .... because it is their land ... still is always was ... so we have to buy some of it.

from the owners because we tried to wipe them out and they are still here to make us obey the law.

Here are some stories...

http://www.parrysoundbeaconstar.com/1149864016

http://www.montrealmirror.com/ARCHIVES/200...2703/news3.html

[geoffrey]

It is a legal thing. Canada denied them their land rights and treaty rights for a long time, trying to get rid of them ... turn them into Canadians but they did not choose to be Canadians like our families.

If you want to live in Canada, off Canadian dollars, then start acting like Canadians and I know that all Canadians of non-Indian descent don't get free land.

Why should you? Why do you feel racially superior?

[jdobbin]

If you want to live in Canada, off Canadian dollars, then start acting like Canadians and I know that all Canadians of non-Indian descent don't get free land.

Why should you? Why do you feel racially superior?

I don't think you'll get a response. Saga's been banned.

[geoffrey]

If you want to live in Canada, off Canadian dollars, then start acting like Canadians and I know that all Canadians of non-Indian descent don't get free land.

Why should you? Why do you feel racially superior?

I don't think you'll get a response. Saga's been banned.

That's unfortunately. That's been the question at the heart of all Indian Act and Treaty situations. I have to ask, why do they feel they are entitled to more land and money based on their race (ethnic group... apparently race doesn't exists according to my anthropologist friend) and ancestory?

[yam]

Its not about claiming "more" money for these lands, its about being paid for what was not paid for - the initial agreed upon portions of land that are now home to the "squatters" (legal definition - really!!) or rather canadians.

of course this is complicated because some canadian businesses/government have paid up others not. However, much of the interest that accumulated over the years was never paid. Only the original land price or its equivalent. Obviously we are now speaking huge ammounts of canadian interest rate debt here. Hence the long ardious battles in court . . . meanwhile say 20 yrs on from any initial court proceeding the interest rate upon the value of the land is still accumulating so further claims are called up - or a further totting up of all thats gone on throughout the procedure.

The problem with a high percentage of treatise signed, is that years later under further scrutiny a twisting of the laws occured. Wording in the treatise is to say the least confusing. However, many have been rivetted with legal loop holes. Hence, chiefs have realised today (often tipped off by canadian lawyer firms by the way) that they lost out through sheer naivity - poor judgement and education, to economic deprivation and need - accepting any ammount to feed a tribe and also to lose out through legal clauses, changing policies that conflict etc.

There has to be something to these claims otherwise the government would have cleaned up these issues years ago. Canada is by all accounts starting to look bad in the international community. Yet more to the point of proof over these lands we need only look to the legal profession who are more than willing to handle many cases. They would not bother if there was not more than a buck to make!!!!

Besides this, Caladonian lands were leased out not sold off. The papers concerning the lease deal were all ready to be brought out to court. Unfortunately, they were miraculously destroyed before presentation.

Ok, i wont go down the conspiracy road - but negotiations are still under way. In other words the claim was not thrown out which it could have been without any other burden of proof.

If nothing was owed do you think the gov/businesses etc would spend all this time and money on these cases? often these cases cost a fortune. The fact they are still indulged does more than suggest the existence of these disputed debts.

It would be totally irrational to think that the canadian government (or any other government come to that )is going to hand out a fortune for nothing.

I wish it would at times though dont you?

[granny]

That's been the question at the heart of all Indian Act and Treaty situations. I have to ask, why do they feel they are entitled to more land and money based on their race (ethnic group... apparently race doesn't exists according to my anthropologist friend) and ancestory?

I think they feel that Canada must honour the treaties made with them as sovereign nations ... and they want to return to being sovereign nations. Traditional Indigenous nations do not want to be part of Canada and do not consider themsleves Canadian. They want the land that Canada took from them illegally, and they want proper compensation for the loss of use of their land for almost 200 years.

Canada tried to force them to become Canadians, but they do not want that. They have a legal right to live independently on their land with their own form of democratic government, as they did for centuries before Canada existed.

Indigenous people are not like immigrants (like us) who chose to come to Canada to become Canadian. They did not come here but they were here because it was their land. They were our allies and helped us become Canada by winning the war of 1812 against the US. Without them, we would be American now.

But they never chose to become Canadian.

[Okwaho]

In this thread id like to discuss what level of awareness about Native Issues are being taught in schools today. And the level of education any one of us received growing up. In any of the Provincial school systems. I attended most of my primary school education in Simcoe County - In Grade 8 we did a unit on Native studies which consisted of a basic rundown on how the Native People provided settlers with the means to survive in this climate, followed by a mock-native banquet with some sad appoximations to corn soup and pemmican. ( nibblets and beef jerky )

Caledonia problem didn't arise overnight

FP/Drum Staff

First Perspective: http://www.firstperspective.ca

Thursday, May 25, 2006

The education system should also focus on the fact that Canada wouldn't exist if it wasn't for our people. Maybe it would give them a better understanding of who we are and how the country came to be!

[Okwaho]

It is a legal thing. Canada denied them their land rights and treaty rights for a long time, trying to get rid of them ... turn them into Canadians but they did not choose to be Canadians like our families.

If you want to live in Canada, off Canadian dollars, then start acting like Canadians and I know that all Canadians of non-Indian descent don't get free land.

Why should you? Why do you feel racially superior?

What? Europeans came here to live off of us and we helped them to survive here. We didn't force them to be like us, we shared our food, knowledge and natural resources with them out of sheer kindness. We assisted them with their wars. If you're glad to be a Canadian you have us to thank for that! It has nothing to do with racial superiority, it's called the same friendship and gratitude in return. Your statement is like me saying to you; if you don't like the fact that we wish to retain what belongs to us, then get on a plane, boat or what ever and go back to Europe where you came from!

[Who's Doing What?]

What? Europeans came here to live off of us and we helped them to survive here. We didn't force them to be like us, we shared our food, knowledge and natural resources with them out of sheer kindness. We assisted them with their wars. If you're glad to be a Canadian you have us to thank for that! It has nothing to do with racial superiority, it's called the same friendship and gratitude in return. Your statement is like me saying to you; if you don't like the fact that we wish to retain what belongs to us, then get on a plane, boat or what ever and go back to Europe where you came from!

1. You are living in the past. I'm sure Russia regrets selling Alaska too. It is simply too late to say "pay up or get out". The world has arrived, and it is not leaving.

2. You speak of all your people shared with the Europeans as you type on your computer, using electricity, inside your heated home, wearing european style clothing, and spending european style money, none of which you would have without the europeans arrival in North America.

3. If it has nothing to do racial superiority, why are only natives given land? It has been shown, Natives are people who came, not only from Asia across the land bridge, but also from Europe.(search:Clovis point) Most likely across the frozen North Atlantic. So if I can trace my ancestry back to those Europeans, or someone else trace their history to the Asians, who first arrived here and became the "Natives" shouldn't I or they also get some land? Since before the europeans came over to North america, the entire population of european humans at one point had only 6 or so women, a lot of people could be entitled to land. Actually if we go back far enough, we're all cousins anyway. So in that light, everyone is just as entittled to the land as everyone else.

4. Staging roadblocks, causing property damage and bullying police, does nothing to further the native's cause. For every roadblock that goes up and zealous non-native that joins your movement, 50 or 100 other Canadians, shake their heads with disgust and embarrassment. I know that if it had been a bunch of Scottish, English and Irish descended Canadians, the military would have been sent in to kick their bloody arses. The cops would have used tear gas and riot gear instead of being intimidated into doing nothing. If the Natives rock the boat too hard you will lose all the extra liberties you have. How would you like to pay Taxes? Or pay for your hunting and fishing licenses? The natives have some pretty good perks, why would you want to risk them?

[Who's Doing What?]

What? Europeans came here to live off of us and we helped them to survive here. We didn't force them to be like us, we shared our food, knowledge and natural resources with them out of sheer kindness. We assisted them with their wars. If you're glad to be a Canadian you have us to thank for that! It has nothing to do with racial superiority, it's called the same friendship and gratitude in return. Your statement is like me saying to you; if you don't like the fact that we wish to retain what belongs to us, then get on a plane, boat or what ever and go back to Europe where you came from!

1. You are living in the past. I'm sure Russia regrets selling Alaska too. It is simply too late to say "pay up or get out". The world has arrived, and it is not leaving.

2. You speak of all your people shared with the Europeans as you type on your computer, using electricity, inside your heated home, wearing european style clothing, and spending european style money, none of which you would have without the europeans arrival in North America.

3. If it has nothing to do racial superiority, why are only natives given land? It has been shown, Natives are people who came, not only from Asia across the land bridge, but also from Europe.(search:Clovis point) Most likely across the frozen North Atlantic. So if I can trace my ancestry back to those Europeans, or someone else trace their history to the Asians, who first arrived here and became the "Natives" shouldn't I or they also get some land? Since before the europeans came over to North america, the entire population of european humans at one point had only 6 or so women, a lot of people could be entitled to land. Actually if we go back far enough, we're all cousins anyway. So in that light, everyone is just as entittled to the land as everyone else.

4. Staging roadblocks, causing property damage and bullying police, does nothing to further the native's cause. For every roadblock that goes up and zealous non-native that joins your movement, 50 or 100 other Canadians, shake their heads with disgust and embarrassment. I know that if it had been a bunch of Scottish, English and Irish descended Canadians, the military would have been sent in to kick their bloody arses. The cops would have used tear gas and riot gear instead of being intimidated into doing nothing. If the Natives rock the boat too hard you will lose all the extra liberties you have. How would you like to pay Taxes? Or pay for your hunting and fishing licenses? The natives have some pretty good perks, why would you want to risk them?

Why would she respond when, as she pointed out, you were rude.

There are legal realities here that you seem unaware of.

The government of Canada is in negotiations with Six Nations because they have a valid land claim for land granted to them, taken by Canada "in trust", and not paid for.

Here's a legal reality for you.

Ain't gonna happen.

How's that?

So when the Natives are done alienating the entire nation and we vote in a govt that promises to "deal with the native issue" and the govt. eliminates all the privilages natives currently enjoy, and does away with all treaties, where will the natives be?

The only reason a 300 yr old claim is given any consideration of validity is because enough of the populace believes it is important. If you alienate everyone, you lose the only thing you had going for you.

[Tsi Nikayen' Enonhne']

She:kon!

What a laugh!

The Bering Strait theory has been put to bed ages ago. First Nations have been in the Americas for forty thousand years - that's 10 thousand years before people first populated europe. The Bering Strait ice bridge only existed between 10,000 and 12,000 years ago. Using a tired and outdated argument is like suggesting Darwinism is still valid ...or ever was....

The reason the government is dealing with us is because we changed the rules. If you want to know what would happen if you suddenly started ignoring our claims and sovereignty ~again~, just look at Afghanistan and multiply it by 10 fold. Your heavy dependence on infrastructure makes you exposedly vunerable.

You are living in the past. You education is lacking and so is your thinking. Neanderthall comes to mind but at least they had the sense to evolve themselves into oblivion....

All kidding aside.....

Gufstasan (sp) Lake, Oka, Ipperwash and others were just a test. Caledonia is the real thing. The land reclamation there has advanced government action further in 3 months than 20 years of the land claims commission did. You ~think~ it isn't advancing our cause? Think again. Your government recognizes the authority of our Confederacy Council. Your government has acknowledged our rightful ownership of the Haldimand Tract and now it negotiates to find a reasonable compensation package to either allow people who wish to stay in their homes and cities or relocate them to somewhere else. Your government is looking at other lands to restore our soveriegn territory. I say... in just a few months we have made huge strides. And besides you have no say it what the final outcome will be. That's what happens when Canada has to negotiate from a lesser and weak position. You have so much that you want from us that it is like licking the icing off the cake for us as your negotiators bend over backwards just to keep the meagre crumbs left on the plate.

This is all about land. To us money doesn't have the same value. It does to you because that is all you have lots of, and you die just to make enough to be comfortable.

I would suggest that YOU join the 21st century. The legal reality supports us and nothing you can say or do can change that. You can change all the laws you want and take your best shot. The best that you will get is what these guys can negotiate for you, based on our ownership of the lands and their desire to stop the general public from finding out the entire truth.

You might ~think~ that government is working in your best interests, no? They aren't. They are working to keep Canada from being discovered as a fraud and those at the table are earnest to settle this as quickly as possible so that we do not reveal your bogus nationhood. find out the truth would likely destroy you, since under the rules of incorporation you dod not have to follow Canadian law either.

O:nen

[Who's Doing What?]

She:kon!

What a laugh!

The Bering Strait theory has been put to bed ages ago. First Nations have been in the Americas for forty thousand years - that's 10 thousand years before people first populated europe. The Bering Strait ice bridge only existed between 10,000 and 12,000 years ago. Using a tired and outdated argument is like suggesting Darwinism is still valid ...or ever was....

The reason the government is dealing with us is because we changed the rules. If you want to know what would happen if you suddenly started ignoring our claims and sovereignty ~again~, just look at Afghanistan and multiply it by 10 fold. Your heavy dependence on infrastructure makes you exposedly vunerable.

You are living in the past. You education is lacking and so is your thinking. Neanderthall comes to mind but at least they had the sense to evolve themselves into oblivion....

All kidding aside.....

Gufstasan (sp) Lake, Oka, Ipperwash and others were just a test. Caledonia is the real thing. The land reclamation there has advanced government action further in 3 months than 20 years of the land claims commission did. You ~think~ it isn't advancing our cause? Think again. Your government recognizes the authority of our Confederacy Council. Your government has acknowledged our rightful ownership of the Haldimand Tract and now it negotiates to find a reasonable compensation package to either allow people who wish to stay in their homes and cities or relocate them to somewhere else. Your government is looking at other lands to restore our soveriegn territory. I say... in just a few months we have made huge strides. And besides you have no say it what the final outcome will be. That's what happens when Canada has to negotiate from a lesser and weak position. You have so much that you want from us that it is like licking the icing off the cake for us as your negotiators bend over backwards just to keep the meagre crumbs left on the plate.

This is all about land. To us money doesn't have the same value. It does to you because that is all you have lots of, and you die just to make enough to be comfortable.

I would suggest that YOU join the 21st century. The legal reality supports us and nothing you can say or do can change that. You can change all the laws you want and take your best shot. The best that you will get is what these guys can negotiate for you, based on our ownership of the lands and their desire to stop the general public from finding out the entire truth.

You might ~think~ that government is working in your best interests, no? They aren't. They are working to keep Canada from being discovered as a fraud and those at the table are earnest to settle this as quickly as possible so that we do not reveal your bogus nationhood. find out the truth would likely destroy you, since under the rules of incorporation you dod not have to follow Canadian law either.

O:nen

Go ahead and make it an election issue then.

Do you really think Canadians are going to elect a govt that wants to hand over billions of dollars for land we already have?

Or are they going to elect a govt. that says it will just end this whole mess by making a change to the constitution?

[Okwaho]

1. You are living in the past. I'm sure Russia regrets selling Alaska too. It is simply too late to say "pay up or get out". The world has arrived, and it is not leaving.

It wasn't Russias to sell in the first place and the United States government is still dealing with its indigenous people.

2. You speak of all your people shared with the Europeans as you type on your computer, using electricity, inside your heated home, wearing european style clothing, and spending european style money, none of which you would have without the europeans arrival in North America.

What the hell does modern technology etc. have to do with this discussion? It's not like the Europeans just jumped off of the Mayflower with it all! If it wasn't for us sharing North America (our home) with Europeans the things invented here wouldn't have been invented.

3. If it has nothing to do racial superiority, why are only natives given land? It has been shown, Natives are people who came, not only from Asia across the land bridge, but also from Europe.(search:Clovis point) Most likely across the frozen North Atlantic. So if I can trace my ancestry back to those Europeans, or someone else trace their history to the Asians, who first arrived here and became the "Natives" shouldn't I or they also get some land? Since before the europeans came over to North america, the entire population of european humans at one point had only 6 or so women, a lot of people could be entitled to land. Actually if we go back far enough, we're all cousins anyway. So in that light, everyone is just as entittled to the land as everyone else.

How does trying to retain our land constitute racial superiority? You sound like a person that feels racially inferior. Maybe your perception is conjured on the way you view yourself. Where not having land given to us we've continually had it taken from us.

The Beringian hypothesis has already been proven false! Our poeple populated North America from South America. We did not come from the Asians. In fact, every linguistic family in the world can be traced back to Babalonion roots with the exception of Native North and South Americans.

As far as your analogy on land rights, go to Iraq or anywhere else and tell them you have a right to their land using your hypothesis.

4. Staging roadblocks, causing property damage and bullying police, does nothing to further the native's cause. For every roadblock that goes up and zealous non-native that joins your movement, 50 or 100 other Canadians, shake their heads with disgust and embarrassment. I know that if it had been a bunch of Scottish, English and Irish descended Canadians, the military would have been sent in to kick their bloody arses. The cops would have used tear gas and riot gear instead of being intimidated into doing nothing. If the Natives rock the boat too hard you will lose all the extra liberties you have. How would you like to pay Taxes? Or pay for your hunting and fishing licenses? The natives have some pretty good perks, why would you want to risk them?

Property damage? What property damage are you refering to? Bullying police? They bully us! Dudley George was unarmed he did not place any officer in life threatening danger. On the site near Caledonia they asulted us and we deffended ourselves. They were pepper spraying and in some cases using excessive force! Canadians should shake their heads in disgust for the way we are treated by their government. Rock what boat? Your ship or our canoe? You keep telling us now I'm telling you...get over it! We don't pay taxes, pay for hunting/fishing licenses etc. etc. be cause we are NOT Canadians! People like yourself are so quick to run at the mouth with "rule of law" yet is your government and its legal system that is breaking the law where we're concerned.