Orangey and The Brainworm Strike Again

[SpankyMcFarland]

Here is a recent statement from the president of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists:

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Suggestions that acetaminophen use in pregnancy causes autism are not only highly concerning to clinicians but also irresponsible when considering the harmful and confusing message they send to pregnant patients, including those who may need to rely on this beneficial medicine during pregnancy. 
 

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Acetaminophen is one of the few options available to pregnant patients to treat pain and fever, which can be harmful to pregnant people when left untreated. Maternal fever, headaches as an early sign of preeclampsia, and pain are all managed with the therapeutic use of acetaminophen, making acetaminophen essential to the people who need it. The conditions people use acetaminophen to treat during pregnancy are far more dangerous than any theoretical risks and can create severe morbidity and mortality for the pregnant person and the fetus.

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In more than two decades of research on the use of acetaminophen in pregnancy, not a single reputable study has successfully concluded that the use of acetaminophen in any trimester of pregnancy causes neurodevelopmental disorders in children. In fact, the two highest-quality studies on this subject—one of which was published in JAMA last year—found no significant associations between use of acetaminophen during pregnancy and children’s risk of autism, ADHD, or intellectual disability.  

“The studies that are frequently pointed to as evidence of a causal relationship, including the latest systematic review released in August, include the same methodological limitations—for example, lack of a control for confounding factors or use of unreliable self-reported data—that are prevalent in the majority of studies on this topic.

https://www.acog.org/news/news-releases/2025/09/acog-affirms-safety-benefits-acetaminophen-pregnancy

 

 

 

 

[LinkSoul60]

15 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

That's a cop out. Tylenol is basically shifting liability to the doctors. 

You have a problem with doctors being charged for the care of their pregnant patients?  That's generally how it works...

Read their statement.  There is no 'cop out'

[paxamericana]

3 minutes ago, LinkSoul60 said:

You have a problem with doctors being charged for the care of their pregnant patients?  That's generally how it works...

Read their statement.  There is no 'cop out'

Except it is a copout because the fucing drug is listed as safe for over the counter. Any drug  addict joe smoe can buy them from the gas station. 

[LinkSoul60]

4 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Except it is a copout because the fucing drug is listed as safe for over the counter. Any drug  addict joe smoe can buy them from the gas station. 

Read...  Tylenol is an over the counter drug that in what we're talking about here is proven safe and effective for the treatment of pain with woman who are pregnant.  Doctors manage their patients health based on the individuals medical history which is why they safe consult with your doctor.  What does the fact it's an over the counter pain reliever have to do with anything?

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 9/23/2025 at 12:33 PM, gatomontes99 said:

What about Harvard: Using acetaminophen during pregnancy may increase children’s autism and ADHD risk

Is Harvard good enough for you? 

That article isn’t good enough for me. It’s too indiscriminate in its selection criteria and includes some badly designed studies in the data set. I also note that the authors all seem to be in public health or related fields. A few paediatricians and obstetricians on the paper would be reassuring. 
 

Here is a better one of a similar type that comes to very different conclusions:

https://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/abstract/2025/02000/acetaminophen_in_pregnancy_and_attention_deficit.8.aspx

The best study I’ve seen is the Swedish one from JAMA - 25 years of data on nearly 2.5 million children, nearly every single birth in the country over the time period. It is a joy to behold. Not too many researchers in the world could acquire such a large and solid set of data. 

Edited September 26, 2025 by SpankyMcFarland

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Awareness of ASD has increased considerably among families and physicians in the last twenty years. The arrival of paediatricians with an interest in the disorder can lead to increased rates of diagnosis in a region. 

But not in the last 10 years and we're seeing a steady increase over that period as well.  As i posted, the numbers are up substantially from even 10 years ago and awareness was Very high at that point.  As i quoted we went from 1 in 68 kids 10 years ago to 1 in 50, and the numbers in the states in the last 10 years have undergone similar increases, and in fact they've got it worse falling to 1 in about 38 as i recall. 

You're desperately trying to deny something that  the data strongly supports, while over time awarness and changes to the diagnosis plays some role in some cases there's little doubt that the numbers of children with autism IS increasing, and i mean as a percent not just total numbers.  I think you're going to have to accept that unless you've got some HARD evidence to the contrary

[SpankyMcFarland]

13 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

But not in the last 10 years and we're seeing a steady increase over that period as well.  As i posted, the numbers are up substantially from even 10 years ago and awareness was Very high at that point.  As i quoted we went from 1 in 68 kids 10 years ago to 1 in 50, and the numbers in the states in the last 10 years have undergone similar increases, and in fact they've got it worse falling to 1 in about 38 as i recall. 

You're desperately trying to deny something that  the data strongly supports, while over time awarness and changes to the diagnosis plays some role in some cases there's little doubt that the numbers of children with autism IS increasing, and i mean as a percent not just total numbers.  I think you're going to have to accept that unless you've got some HARD evidence to the contrary

 

Again, I don’t know whether the condition described as ASD is increasing in frequency in the population but I do know that far greater efforts are being made to diagnose it these days. Did you read the quotes I just pasted from the article you quoted? 

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What's behind this increase?

There are two main reasons for the increase. The first is the broadened definition of Autism Spectrum Disorder, which means that more people are meeting this definition now than previously. 

Second, there have been many widely successful public health programs that increased screening at wellness visits for children ages 18–24 months to look for signs of autism. Parents, caregivers, and community members are also more aware of the symptoms, and autism is being more accepted in the community. People are not as afraid to seek help and know where to go when they have concerns. 

 

Edited September 25, 2025 by SpankyMcFarland

[paxamericana]

32 minutes ago, LinkSoul60 said:

What does the fact it's an over the counter pain reliever have to do with anything?

Because of access, to hold doctors accountable for the use of a drug requires that the doctor first prescribe said medication. If the medication is infact over the counter, it is not in direct control of the doctor. Hence it is incumbent upon the drug manufacturer to market the drug as safe. It's been a public messaging campaign to end smoking and alcohol use by pregnant women. The same needs to take place for Tylenol. Trump is in the right. 

[LinkSoul60]

2 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

Because of access, to hold doctors accountable for the use of a drug requires that the doctor first prescribe said medication. If the medication is infact over the counter, it is not in direct control of the doctor. Hence it is incumbent upon the drug manufacturer to market the drug as safe. It's been a public messaging campaign to end smoking and alcohol use by pregnant women. The same needs to take place for Tylenol. Trump is in the right. 

You completely ignore the medical communities position and basic common sense....  Trump is right, sure... 😂

How sad it must be- believing that scientists, scholars, historians, economists, and journalists have devoted their entire lives to deceiving you, while a reality TV star with decades of fraud and exhaustively documented lying is your only beacon of truth and honesty. - Neil DeGrasse Tyson

[paxamericana]

7 minutes ago, LinkSoul60 said:

You completely ignore the medical communities position and basic common sense.

I read that as , support big pharma and ignore medical basic common sense. 

[CdnFox]

13 minutes ago, LinkSoul60 said:

You completely ignore the medical communities position and basic common sense....  Trump is right, sure... 😂

How sad it must be- believing that scientists, scholars, historians, economists, and journalists have devoted their entire lives to deceiving you, while a reality TV star with decades of fraud and exhaustively documented lying is your only beacon of truth and honesty. - Neil DeGrasse Tyson

Not more than 4 years ago cBC broadcasted a news report saying that women should avoid taking Tylenol when pregnant as it could cause issues. 

Yet now magically it's insane to suggest that 🙄🙄🙄🙄

It's amazing how the left can switch gears like that so fast without even missing a beat and wear their hypocrisy so shamelessly

[LinkSoul60]

21 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

I read that as , support big pharma and ignore medical basic common sense. 

You ignore comments and opinions from the medical community that has spoken on this subject and choose to believe Trump.  Think about that....

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, LinkSoul60 said:

You ignore comments and opinions from the medical community that has spoken on this subject and choose to believe Trump.  Think about that....

The medical community has said there is evidence of a link.

You ignore any medical opinion from a medical expert that you don't like and then claim that others are ignoring medical opinions.

Once again the left is driven entirely by hypocrisy. And as a reminder Tylenol itself warned pregnant women against taking their product too much just a few years ago

[SpankyMcFarland]

Here are more reasons for concern about that much-quoted Harvard study:

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A Harvard dean and preeminent epidemiologist whose work was cited by top health officials in the Trump administration as justification for severely curtailing Tylenol use by pregnant women due to a supposed link to autism provided expert testimony in a lawsuit against the drug’s maker that a federal judge called “unreliable.” 

Andrea Baccarelli, dean of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, submitted written testimony in 2023 that his review of the scientific literature led him to conclude that prenatal exposure to acetaminophen, the active ingredient in Tylenol, “can cause the offspring to develop” neurodevelopmental disorders such as autism and ADHD. A Harvard spokesperson said that Baccarelli was paid roughly $150,000 for his work on the case.

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The federal court judge excoriated Baccarelli’s testimony, writing that “Dr. Baccarelli downplays those studies that undercut his causation thesis and emphasizes those that align with his thesis.

U.S. District Judge Denise Cote of the Southern District of New York noted that neither Baccarelli nor four other experts paid to testify for the plaintiffs “has published research that expresses the ultimate opinions they offer here. Indeed, the plaintiffs’ lead expert on causation, Dr. Baccarelli, as recently as 2022, co-authored a study on the prenatal effects of acetaminophen that cautioned against any change in clinical practice.”

Cote ruled that the five expert witnesses’ testimony should be excluded from the case.

And this is an interesting detail:

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Harvard spokesperson Stephanie Simon declined to make Baccarelli available for an interview, and would not address questions about his expert testimony or the judge’s decision to exclude it. 

You’d expect the head of a prestigious academic department, actually a veritable school of public health, to be trusted to speak for themselves, especially just after providing such crucial evidence to the government. 

https://www.statnews.com/2025/09/23/researcher-behind-trump-tylenol-autism-expert-testimony-tossed/

Edited September 26, 2025 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

The medical community has said there is evidence of a link.

You ignore any medical opinion from a medical expert that you don't like and then claim that others are ignoring medical opinions.

Once again the left is driven entirely by hypocrisy. And as a reminder Tylenol itself warned pregnant women against taking their product too much just a few years ago

There is evidence of an association. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 9/24/2025 at 12:22 AM, CouchPotato said:

Pregnant liberals film themselves downing Tylenol to spite Trump despite autism warning

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15126539/pregnant-liberal-moms-taking-tylenol-tiktok-donald-trump.html

 

Haha, take that, Orange Fuhrer!!

 

This is the problem when politics enters a medical debate - moderation becomes a hard thing to find. Needless to say, acetaminophen can be very dangerous if taken in excess. 

Edited September 26, 2025 by SpankyMcFarland

[eyeball]

5 hours ago, paxamericana said:

Except it is a copout because the fucing drug is listed as safe for over the counter. Any drug  addict joe smoe can buy them from the gas station. 

Along with his smokes and beer.

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 9/23/2025 at 8:33 PM, CdnFox said:

There's plenty of other ways to treat a fever for god's sake Robo Smith. 

Ibuprohine, aspirin, the nsaid family of drugs,  there's no reason to use tylenol to treat fever.  And if there is in some weird specific case then fine, go for it, but keep it to a minimum.  Nobody's banning the stuff.

You're making yourself look stupid again, 

Gotta watch them NSAIDS b’y, especially after 20 weeks. Don’t be advising women to take them.

https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availability/fda-recommends-avoiding-use-nsaids-pregnancy-20-weeks-or-later-because-they-can-result-low-amniotic

Pregnancy is tricky. Take a look at the literature of associations that have been found over the years. 

Edited September 26, 2025 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 9/24/2025 at 6:29 PM, CdnFox said:

You never answered this, what would you say to the women who listened to you and ate all the tylenol they wanted and it was later found that it actually did have an impact and they have autistic children.

Will you offer compensation out of your pocket? Will you help them raising the child? I know first hand a little about that, it's not very fun a lot of the time. 

How would you explain that you thought the advice 'minimize tylenol use' was just too radical given there was only SOME evidence it may be causing a problem and you just didn't want to give trump any 'victories'. 

The evidence is what it is. We can’t see beyond it and take action on how we think it might turn out - that’s black magic not science. The consensus among the experts right now is that all we have here is a statistical correlation.

Edited September 26, 2025 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

 

On 9/24/2025 at 5:37 PM, CdnFox said:

Wasn't that hard was it.  If the effect is different based on different biology then sibling studies won't show a difference. 

Every person is different, yes, so what good studies are trying to do is make sure that the difference seen in the drug group is due to the drug and not something else. Because we can’t randomize in this setting other ways have to be found to reduce the background variation. Looking at siblings is a great way to do that. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

The medical community has said there is evidence of a link.

You ignore any medical opinion from a medical expert that you don't like and then claim that others are ignoring medical opinions.

Once again the left is driven entirely by hypocrisy. And as a reminder Tylenol itself warned pregnant women against taking their product too much just a few years ago

I posted a recent statement from the president of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology above. It’s fairly clear. Can you produce a link supporting your opinion from a similarly authoritative source, eg a college of relevant specialists or a national medical association in North America or Western Europe? 

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

There is evidence of an association. 

And what's the medical difference between an association and a link? Or are you just being a bit of a pedantic twat?

The bottom line is there is evidence that it's involved somehow with a higher likelihood of autism. While this hasn't been established certainly until further research is done to prove or disprove this it is REASONABLE AND PRUDENT to advise women to minimize their use of the drug. 

That's pretty basic.  That's common sense.  And that's what you're arguing against. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

The bottom line is that most doctors responsible for actually treating patients have not changed their views on this matter just because Trump made some ill-advised statements. Such views are reflected in the statements of their professional associations and represent the best advice for the public. 

Edited September 26, 2025 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

11 hours ago, CdnFox said:

And what's the medical difference between an association and a link? Or are you just being a bit of a pedantic twat?

The bottom line is there is evidence that it's involved somehow with a higher likelihood of autism. While this hasn't been established certainly until further research is done to prove or disprove this it is REASONABLE AND PRUDENT to advise women to minimize their use of the drug. 

That's pretty basic.  That's common sense.  And that's what you're arguing against. 

Pedantry is not a bad idea in this debate. I prefer the term association to link just so we know we’re not necessarily taking about a cause here. 

I’m afraid there is no good evidence yet that Tylenol increases the likelihood of autism. Again, I refer you to the recent statement from the president of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology which is fairly explicit. Bear in mind that many of the alternatives to Tylenol come with their own risks. 
 

Quote

In more than two decades of research on the use of acetaminophen in pregnancy, not a single reputable study has successfully concluded that the use of acetaminophen in any trimester of pregnancy causes neurodevelopmental disorders in children. In fact, the two highest-quality studies on this subject—one of which was published in JAMA last year—found no significant associations between use of acetaminophen during pregnancy and children’s risk of autism, ADHD, or intellectual disability.  

“The studies that are frequently pointed to as evidence of a causal relationship, including the latest systematic review released in August, include the same methodological limitations—for example, lack of a control for confounding factors or use of unreliable self-reported data—that are prevalent in the majority of studies on this topic.

 

 

 

[CdnFox]

52 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

The bottom line is that most doctors responsible for actually treating patients have not changed their views on this matter just because Trump made some ill-advised statements.

I don't think anyone expected them to, but the us health authorities are apparently issuing a recommendation that pregnant women should avoid tylenol as much as possible.  And doctors would be wise to pay heed to that.