Israel is losing the plot. . .

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

uhhh...sure...whatever you say there chief.

Not what i  say, what the chart says   

Now you're mad at me because you didn't read your own 'source' again  LOLOL

 

[eyeball]

22 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Not what i  say, what the chart says

Which doesn't say what you did.

[CdnFox]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

Which doesn't say what you did.

The chart says exactly what I did.

Your problem yet again is an inability to cope with math.

I even let you off the hook for the fact that there's a pretty major countries that aren't on that list, which doesn't really make it world opinion.

Here's the problem you run into All the time. You come to a conclusion that you like, and then desperately try and justify if I working your way back to a question. That's always bad thinking.

I have such an easy time making you look silly because I start with questions and then work my way forward through the evidence to a conclusion. That means a lot fewer mistakes, a lot less painting myself into a corner and a lot less logical dead ends that you run into

If you want to do better you have to start with questions and then come to a conclusion not listen to your echo chamber and decide to try and defend whatever they like

[eyeball]

11 hours ago, CdnFox said:

The chart says exactly what I did.

It says 20 not 2. You dropped a zero.

[CdnFox]

11 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It says 20 not 2. You dropped a zero.

It says to. Go back and read what I said again and then go back and read the chart again.

I mean I know math is hard for you but surely to Christ you could count to two without screwing it up

[SpankyMcFarland]

So here’s progress. The IDF now accepts the health ministry figure of 70,000 dead Palestinians as being substantially correct after disputing it for years. 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-believes-70000-gazans-killed-in-war-as-claimed-

 

[CdnFox]

25 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

So here’s progress. The IDF now accepts the health ministry figure of 70,000 dead Palestinians as being substantially correct after disputing it for years. 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-believes-70000-gazans-killed-in-war-as-claimed-

 

When do they dispute it? What's the number they previously released?

Oh and they can't have disputed that number for years, that's the final number at the end of the war which just happened. So if somebody was claiming that was the number years ago then they were lying

Edited January 30 by CdnFox

[User]

2 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

So here’s progress. The IDF now accepts the health ministry figure of 70,000 dead Palestinians as being substantially correct after disputing it for years. 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-believes-70000-gazans-killed-in-war-as-claimed-

 

The IDF did not do anything. 

"Briefing reporters on condition of anonymity"

[SpankyMcFarland]

 

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

When do they dispute it? What's the number they previously released?

Oh and they can't have disputed that number for years, that's the final number at the end of the war which just happened. So if somebody was claiming that was the number years ago then they were lying

The numbers have been constantly disputed by the Israeli govt, IDF and their many supporters as ‘Hamas’ numbers. 

[User]

46 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

 

The numbers have been constantly disputed by the Israeli govt, IDF and their many supporters as ‘Hamas’ numbers. 

The dispute was not so simple "Hamas numbers" but their characterization of them, as being mostly innocent people as if Israel was not killing any Hamas combatants at all, and throughout the campaign specific dispuates with their claims about how they just killed 500 people dropping a bomb on a hospital when it turns out it was the Hamas clowns own stupid rockets

Now, folks like you come play this stupid game, as if this whole time Hamas was so above board and to be believed the whole time. 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

 

The numbers have been constantly disputed by the Israeli govt, IDF and their many supporters as ‘Hamas’ numbers. 

So where is that then? If it's been constant then you should have no trouble Citing for five examples for example. Let's see that. Unless of course you're full of shit

[SpankyMcFarland]

16 hours ago, User said:

The dispute was not so simple "Hamas numbers" but their characterization of them, as being mostly innocent people as if Israel was not killing any Hamas combatants at all, and throughout the campaign specific dispuates with their claims about how they just killed 500 people dropping a bomb on a hospital when it turns out it was the Hamas clowns own stupid rockets

Now, folks like you come play this stupid game, as if this whole time Hamas was so above board and to be believed the whole time. 

Hold on a minute. I am talking about the total number killed here. That was repeatedly disputed too. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

15 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So where is that then? If it's been constant then you should have no trouble Citing for five examples for example. Let's see that. Unless of course you're full of shit.

 

If you know anything about the subject you should know that the numbers have been hotly debated for years. BTW when I do present facts in detail, eg acetaminophen and autism, they have precisely no effect on you so why should I bother? 

[User]

3 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Hold on a minute. I am talking about the total number killed here. That was repeatedly disputed too. 

Perhaps, but you were making broad, generalized statements about IDF dismissing "Hamas numbers" generally throughout the conflict.

So you agree, Hamas did push numbers throughout the conflict that were wrong and should not have been trusted?

 

 

Just now, SpankyMcFarland said:

 

If you know anything about the subject you should know that the numbers have been hotly debated for years. BTW when I do present facts in detail, eg acetaminophen and autism, they have precisely no effect on you so why should I bother? 

Because you want to be honest and factual and not sink to the level of those you disagree with?

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

14 minutes ago, User said:

Perhaps, but you were making broad, generalized statements about IDF dismissing "Hamas numbers" generally throughout the conflict.

So you agree, Hamas did push numbers throughout the conflict that were wrong and should not have been trusted?

 

 

Because you want to be honest and factual and not sink to the level of those you disagree with?

 

The number of ‘militants’ is going to take years to sort out, if it ever is, given the different criteria used by Israel and others to define them. However, the total number killed is a much simpler matter to discuss and that is what I am focusing on here. I have listened to countless US TV broadcasts that claimed the number of killed was a Hamas allegation and was exaggerated. 

On the number issue I just googled AI:

Quote

Israel has historically, and throughout the 2023-2026 Gaza war, frequently disputed casualty figures provided by Palestinian authorities, particularly those from the Gaza Health Ministry (GHM), often claiming they are inflated or include militant combatants, only to sometimes acknowledge higher numbers later

. 

Examples of this pattern of denial and subsequent acknowledgment include:

• 2023-2026 Gaza War Death Toll (70,000+): Throughout the conflict, Israeli officials dismissed GHM figures as "Hamas propaganda". However, in January 2026, after over two years of denial, Israeli media reported that IDF officials acknowledged that the Gaza Health Ministry’s estimate—that over 71,000 Palestinians had been killed—was "largely accurate".

There are multiple recent reports of this news:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvgpd1x00exo

 

Here is my first post on this subject in this thread. It’s fairly clear. 

Quote

So here’s progress. The IDF now accepts the health ministry figure of 70,000 dead Palestinians as being substantially correct after disputing it for years. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

20 hours ago, User said:

The IDF did not do anything. 

"Briefing reporters on condition of anonymity"

That is standard IDF practice. On many matters they never speak unequivocally and officially.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

 

If you know anything about the subject you should know that the numbers have been hotly debated for years. 

Then why is it you can't point to a single example. 

Sounds more like you're making it up and lying.

First off The war started at the end of 2023. So it's really only been 2 years. So your claim that they've been disputing these numbers for years and years now is obviously dishonest on the face of it

And you would have no issue showing that Israel disputed these numbers if in fact it was as ubiquitous as you claim

If you have to be dishonest to make your point you don't have a good point

[SpankyMcFarland]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Then why is it you can't point to a single example. 

Sounds more like you're making it up and lying.

First off The war started at the end of 2023. So it's really only been 2 years. So your claim that they've been disputing these numbers for years and years now is obviously dishonest on the face of it

And you would have no issue showing that Israel disputed these numbers if in fact it was as ubiquitous as you claim

If you have to be dishonest to make your point you don't have a good point

Did you read the link I provided from the BBC? Do you think Google AI is run by Hamas? Have you really never heard the Israeli caveat about the numbers being made on North American TV over the last few years again and again? 

[User]

43 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

That is standard IDF practice. On many matters they never speak unequivocally and officially.

Maybe, but that is still not the IDF officially saying or doing anything. 

 

[CdnFox]

7 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Did you read the link I provided from the BBC? Do you think Google AI is run by Hamas? Have you really never heard the Israeli caveat about the numbers being made on North American TV over the last few years again and again? 

Oh you mean the one that you posted after my last reply, when you avoided posting anything for several times? That's pretty dishonest of you

The article does not support your position. I take it you didn't actually read it you just did a quick search and posted the first article that sounded like it supported your position

The article says that in the past it 'cast doubt'  on the numbers. Not said they were wrong. Don't means that it's unreliable.

In addition it specifically says this about what they previously claimed:

"

Israel has always disputed the Hamas figures and said before last year's ceasefire it had killed 1,600 fighters since 7 October 2023 and another 22,000 combatants in the war.

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) previously said it believed two or three civilians had been killed for every dead militant."

So. I know math can be challenging but 22,000 + 1600 Is 23,600. That's how many fighters they say they killed. Not total people but fighters

And for every one of those there were two civilian deaths, possibly three.

So even if we go with their low end we take 23600 and multiply it by 2 and add that to the total

That's 70,800 total casualties. Remind me what the Hamas number was again?

 

As I suspected, I caught you lying once again. The BBC is trying to spin it to make it sound like Israel has said these numbers were wrong but their own article proves that what they were saying was that Hamas was probably fairly accurate but it was questionable and the precise number was in doubt

That is a far cry from claiming they disputed these numbers all these years.

 

I greatly appreciate you posting the proof you're a lying sack. Next time maybe try with the truth

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

21 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Then why is it you can't point to a single example. 

Sounds more like you're making it up and lying.

First off The war started at the end of 2023. So it's really only been 2 years. So your claim that they've been disputing these numbers for years and years now is obviously dishonest on the face of it

And you would have no issue showing that Israel disputed these numbers if in fact it was as ubiquitous as you claim

If you have to be dishonest to make your point you don't have a good point

You are on a hiding to nothing here, arguing for the sake of it. I’m just picking a few easily accessible articles at the moment to make my point which is not debatable by any sensible person. 

Here is an article from The Times of Israel. A few quotes: 

Quote

For more than two years, one of the most morally explosive questions of the Gaza war has often been framed as if it had only two possible answers: either you “believe Hamas,” or you “stand with Israel.” The dead, in this framework, become a talking point—and the number becomes a flag.

Then, this week, something quietly disrupted the script.

In a briefing attributed to senior Israeli military officials,reporters were given an estimate: roughly 70,000 Gazans killed in the war, excluding those still missing under rubble—an estimate that aligned, in broad terms, with figures issued by Gaza’s Health Ministry.

Within hours, the Israeli army’s spokesman for foreign media stressed that no official IDF number had been published, and that any formal data would be released through recognized channels.

It is tempting to treat this as a PR hiccup: a loose briefing followed by a necessary correction. But that interpretation misses what this episode actually reveals. The story isn’t the number. The story is the politics of who gets to declare a number “real.”

Quote

And here’s the uncomfortable part: whatever Israel said publicly, the fact that senior officers briefed a figure close to Gaza’s suggests the internal working estimate may not have been far off. When officials privately converge on a number they have publicly dismissed, they are not conceding a political point. They are acknowledging a data reality that has circulated for months in diplomatic, humanitarian, and analytical channels, only now it briefly surfaced in public view.

So why the retreat? Why the scramble to say: “Not official”?

Because “official” is not a statistical category. It’s a power claim.

Quote

In such an environment, numbers do not merely inform; they identify. A death toll becomes an identity marker. Doubting it can make you an apologist for atrocity; accepting it can make you complicit in antisemitism. Every statistic is recruited into identity warfare. And once that happens, the public stops asking the only question that matters in a war zone: How do we know?

That is the real scandal of the “approximately correct” moment. It suggests that the argument was never primarily about accuracy. It was about control over legitimacy.

If, for two years, a number was dismissed as propaganda, and then, suddenly, treated as a close approximation, what else was waved away not because it was false, but because it was inconvenient? What other claims were rejected reflexively because accepting them would require painful accounting?

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/you-dont-have-a-numbers-problem-you-have-a-truth-problem/

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

Just a little taste to be going on with:

Quote

 

 

 

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

You are on a hiding to nothing here, arguing for the sake of it. I’m just picking a few easily accessible articles at the moment to make my point which is not debatable by any sensible person. 

Here is an article from The Times of Israel. A few quotes: 

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/you-dont-have-a-numbers-problem-you-have-a-truth-problem/

 

I literally proved what you were saying is wrong. And I used your own link.

You could have posted proof of your allegation the moment I asked, I asked nicely and everything I didn't call you names

Then you went on arguing for three posts before finally posting an article that proved I was right.

And you're claiming I'm arguing for the sake of arguing?

There is something wrong with you

2 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Just a little taste to be going on with:

 

 

So some guy claims that somebody else said something and you're offering this is proof.

Yet he hasn't provided any sources from the Israelis either

And the source you provided says the Israelis agreed that with the numbers approximately the whole way along based on their estimates. But question whether or not Hamas was being accurate.

You literally have just picked someone else to lie instead of you. Not helpful

[eyeball]

On 1/30/2026 at 11:26 AM, SpankyMcFarland said:

So here’s progress. The IDF now accepts the health ministry figure of 70,000 dead Palestinians as being substantially correct after disputing it for years. 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-believes-70000-gazans-killed-in-war-as-claimed-

This is not progress to anyone who's position has been that the death toll was being exaggerated.

On 1/30/2026 at 4:50 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

The numbers have been constantly disputed by the Israeli govt, IDF and their many supporters as ‘Hamas’ numbers. 

Yup.

On 1/30/2026 at 5:59 PM, CdnFox said:

So where is that then? If it's been constant then you should have no trouble Citing for five examples for example. Let's see that. Unless of course you're full of shit

Here's three off the top of my head who've constantly disputed the death toll while singing the praises of the new gold standard the IDF has set for urban massacres.

CdnFox

User

Army Guy

Feel free to add to the list...

 

[User]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Here's three off the top of my head who've constantly disputed the death toll while singing the praises of the new gold standard the IDF has set for urban massacres.

CdnFox

User

Army Guy

Feel free to add to the list...

The death tolls I have disputed have been the absurd ones of genocide and hundreds of thousands killed or specific incidents where they claimed Israel blew up a Hospital. 

Next time, don't support this kind of terrorism from Hamas if you really care about the loss of life that comes with it.