AT LEAST 1 in 5 Canadian Conservatives Support Becoming 51st State: Angus Reid Poll

[Zeitgeist]

10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

depends how far down the American imperialist rabbit hole you go,

if America shifts to annexing Canada as a long term project,

then the method would be to cut special deals with each region in order to pit them against each other,

bear in mind that what Quebec receives in transfer payments from Canada

that is just walking around money in Washington,

 

It’s not just transfer payments.  Its labels on products in Canada, its official language status and use of French in Parliament.  It’s the numerous French language education programs and international Francophone ties.

Pitting the regions of Canada against each other just creates more barriers to be removed later on, and look at what American threats are doing to those barriers.  The country is unifying and harmonizing at lightening speed.

It’s not in the U.S. interest to weaken the biggest market for its exports or to alienate its biggest foreign tourist nation.

The best long term gain is a strong union of two strong countries that function economically and in many other ways like one giant country.  Forced annexation is far too damaging and costly to manage.  I can see a common market reducing as much duplication as possible over time.  Ottawa may slip somewhat into irrelevance, but probably not completely, which is fine.  The provinces won’t want to give up their legislatures, which as you said are strong in Canada.  

Edited March 29 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s not just transfer payments.  Its labels on products in Canada, its official language status and use of French in Parliament.  It’s the numerous French language education programs and international Francophone ties.

"51st State" is just rhetoric,

really what America would offer is Protectorate Status ; Puerto Rico North

that doesn't require America to involve itself in Provincial affairs,

you get American military protection, unfettered access to the US market, and free movement to & from America,

in which you get rich enough to pay for your own Frenchness, that's not America's problem

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Pitting the regions of Canada against each other just creates more barriers to be removed later on,

but that's how the Imperialist game works, Old Bean,

you construct barriers to create leverage,

lowering them only as you get the concessions required

[Dougie93]

31 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 The country is unifying and harmonizing at lightening speed.

I would suggest that is mostly just talk at this point, more rhetorical than functional,

furthermore, that would not last if America made annexation a long term project,

under relentless pressure indefinitely, Canadian unity would crack,

like already people in Ontario are calling Albertans "traitors", Alberta is MAGA North to Ontario now,

never mind keeping Alberta in Canada, at this point Ontario wants to kick Alberta out,

people expect Quebec or Alberta to be the ones who bring Confederation down,

but actually, if there is a Province with the most interests in joining America, it's Ontario

from an American point of view, if you are going to award State status, Ontario would be that State,

in Ontario, America gets the industrial heartland, and the resources, all in one,

from an Imperialist standpoint, Toronto is the prize, not Regina Saskatchewan,

America is not a resource empire, America is a tech empire,

the resources come to America regardless, the prize is Intellectual Property now,

Toronto is worth more than the rest of Canada combined therein,

if Toronto was freed from Canadian friction to operate under American rules,

it would rival New York & Los Angeles,  it would surpass Los Angeles in fact,

in Canada, Ontario is as poor as Mississippi,

but if it was an American State,  Ontario would be New York North

Edited March 29 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

34 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

"51st State" is just rhetoric,

really what America would offer is Protectorate Status ; Puerto Rico North

that doesn't require America to involve itself in Provincial affairs,

you get American military protection, unfettered access to the US market, and free movement to & from America,

in which you get rich enough to pay for your own Frenchness, that's not America's problem

Canadians aren’t giving up their sovereignty.  Travel from Canada to the U.S. is down 70% since the 51st state talk and the country is in rapid realignment mode away from US dependence.  Canada won’t be Puerto Rico.  Canada has the 10th most powerful economy in the world, a proud history of military, technological, and industrial achievements.  Canada has created one of the most harmonious and peaceful countries on Earth.  Canadians want to chart their own course and have the strength to do so.

A good article by Jim Stanford today said that in fact only 20% of the economy is export dependent, as 80% of what we produce is for Canadians.  We can well afford the removal of internal barriers and a retooling of our economy away from US dependence.

I agree we needed our asses kicked on defence, but the trade imbalance with the U.S. is BS as they get our energy at a discount.  Canada needs to enhance the Canadian military and build the infrastructure and policy framework for a more productive economy.  We should be prepared for the unreliability of the U.S., so any trade deal with the U.S. has to have assurances in it with penalties upon violation.  The “national security” excuse can’t be abused to break trade agreements without clear justification. Canada is better off becoming less integrated with an unreliable partner.

Edited March 29 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Canadians aren’t giving up their sovereignty. 

as of right now they are not,

but again, if America made annexation a long term project, things would change over time,

if the choice was to be poorer than Mississippi behind a Canadian Iron Curtain,

or as rich as New York with State status in America,

over time, Ontario would start to consider its options,

it's mostly just Boomers who are attached to Expo 67 Canada, that is who is rallying to the colours,

but all those Boomers are about to die off en masse,

[Dougie93]

12 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

A good article by Jim Stanford today said that in fact only 20% of the economy is export dependent, as 80% of what we produce is for Canadians.  We can well afford the removal of internal barriers and a retooling of our economy away from US dependence.

but Canada's real problem is productivity & innovation, or rather the total lack thereof

Canada could consume 100% of Canada's resources,

but that wouldn't make Canada rich, quite the opposite

[Zeitgeist]

39 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I would suggest that is mostly just talk at this point, more rhetorical than functional,

furthermore, that would not last if America made annexation a long term project,

under relentless pressure indefinitely, Canadian unity would crack,

like already people in Ontario are calling Albertans "traitors", Alberta is MAGA North to Ontario now,

never mind keeping Alberta in Canada, at this point Ontario wants to kick Alberta out,

people expect Quebec or Alberta to be the ones who bring Confederation down,

but actually, if there is a Province with the most interests in joining America, it's Ontario

from an American point of view, if you are going to award State status, Ontario would be that State,

in Ontario, America gets the industrial heartland, and the resources, all in one,

from an Imperialist standpoint, Toronto is the prize, not Regina Saskatchewan,

America is not a resource empire, America is a tech empire,

the resources come to America regardless, the prize is Intellectual Property now,

Toronto is worth more than the rest of Canada combined therein,

Yes it’s very much about intellectual property.  The Greater Toronto-Greater Golden Horseshoe running from Bowmanville to Niagara and north to Barrie and northwest to Waterloo is a series economic region that can do it all, from growing peaches to producing steel and cars and smartphones.  Connect that with high speed rail to Montreal and its AI centres and cultural assets and the sky is the limit, but you’re right, with or without Quebec, Ontario is impressive.  I forget about Ottawa, which is also an Ontario tech and cultural centre.  It’s also on that corridor. 

12 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

as of right now they are not,

but again, if America made annexation a long term project, things would change over time,

if the choice was to be poorer than Mississippi behind a Canadian Iron Curtain,

or as rich as New York with State status in America,

over time, Ontario would start to consider its options,

it's mostly just Boomers who are attached to Expo 67 Canada, that is who is rallying to the colours,

but all those Boomers are about to die off en masse,

But it can only work through gradualism and enticement. An economic union facilitates that without stoking fears of takeover. Annexation threats and economic pressure backfires on Americans.

Edited March 29 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes it’s very much about intellectual property.  The Greater Toronto-Greater Golden Horseshoe running from Bowmanville to Niagara and north to Barrie and northwest to Waterloo is a series economic region that can do it all, from growing peaches to producing steel and cars and smartphones.  Connect that with high speed rail to Montreal and its AI centres and cultural assets and the sky is the limit, but you’re right, with or without Quebec, Ontario is impressive.  I forget about Ottawa, which is also an Ontario tech and cultural centre.  It’s also on that corridor. 

Ontario is the prize, Ontario is where the money is,

Alberta oil is not so important, Venezuela has the same oil and it ain't making them rich,

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

Ontario is the prize, Ontario is where the money is,

Alberta oil is not so important, Venezuela has the same oil and it ain't making them rich,

Good ol’ Upper Canada.  Brock would be proud.  

[Zeitgeist]

18 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

as of right now they are not,

but again, if America made annexation a long term project, things would change over time,

if the choice was to be poorer than Mississippi behind a Canadian Iron Curtain,

or as rich as New York with State status in America,

over time, Ontario would start to consider its options,

it's mostly just Boomers who are attached to Expo 67 Canada, that is who is rallying to the colours,

but all those Boomers are about to die off en masse,

Don’t forget that much of that wealth difference is in exchange rates.  Under Harper Canadians briefly became wealthier than Americans.  Now that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be very concerned about our dollar’s value.

[Dougie93]

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Good ol’ Upper Canada.  Brock would be proud.  

well frankly, the way America is now, Issac Brock would favour joining them,

General Brock actually couldn't stand being posted to Upper Canada, he was no Yeoman Farmer,

Upper Canada was a career ender, exile in the middle of nowhere,

General Brock desired to be in Europe fighting Bonaparte more than anything,

still to this day, nobody in England has ever heard of him, which is all he cared about in the end,

 

[Dougie93]

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Don’t forget that much of that wealth difference is in exchange rates.  Under Harper Canadians briefly became wealthier than Americans.  Now that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be very concerned about our dollar’s value.

well Canada managed to dodge the worst of the Global Financial Crisis in the moment,

however, American came rocketing out of the crisis like a Phoenix,

while Canada went in the opposite direction,

[Zeitgeist]

46 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

well frankly, the way America is now, Issac Brock would favour joining them,

General Brock actually couldn't stand being posted to Upper Canada, he was no Yeoman Farmer,

Upper Canada was a career ender, exile in the middle of nowhere,

General Brock desired to be in Europe fighting Bonaparte more than anything

 

I’m not the one to be sold on erasing the border.  I’m sick of the duplication and paperwork hassle of dealing with two different standards and requirements.  I’m tired of sending so much tax money to a federal government that can’t get the basics right like passports and defence and wants to tell us how to think and violate provincial jurisdiction with a program for everything.

I also don’t think, however, that the importance of the provinces can be ignored.  They really are like states. Maybe you could group the Maritimes together with Newfoundland as one state.  Maybe Alberta and Saskatchewan could be one state.  Maybe Manitoba could be in with Ontario.  Quebec would stand alone.  B.C. would make a strange bedfellow of Alberta and might have to go it alone.  The Republicans would need a couple of conservative states.  Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Ontario are the only prospects, but Ontario is also progressive and Saskatchewan is small.  The East might occasionally go conservative.  Quebec and BC are full of radical left lunatics.

Maybe if BC was anchored to Alberta it would be conservative overall.  If Saskatchewan was anchored to Manitoba it would be conservative at least half the time. Ontario would be conservative at least half the time. Quebec would be crazy 100% of the time.  The eastern provinces would be conservative a third of the time.  That might work politically for the U.S., but I don’t see the Canadian provinces accepting compromising their current provincial jurisdictions.  The territories would continue as-is, I think. Yeah too messy to re-jig on that scale.  

Edited March 29 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

well Canada managed to dodge the worst of the Global Financial Crisis in the moment,

however, American came rocketing out of the crisis like a Phoenix,

while Canada went in the opposite direction,

Canada got lazy and precious and elected Trudeau.  

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada got lazy and precious and elected Trudeau.  

Trudeau was not a cause, he was a result,

Trudeau was pandering to something which has been growing since the 1970's

and it hasn't gone away,

it still controls every institution in Canada,

this idea that the Post National State is gone never to return, that is patently naive

[Dougie93]

14 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I’m not the one to be sold on erasing the border.

well Donald Trump is obviously the wrong man to get it done,

but again, if you think of it as a long term project,

with the Democrats being the emissaries ; making offers instead of threats,

then I can see Toronto & Co starting to come around

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

well Donald Trump is obviously the wrong man to get it done,

but again, if you think of it as a long term project,

with the Democrats being the emissaries ; making offers instead of threats,

then I can see Toronto & Co starting to come around

The problem is that Ontario runs Canada.  How would we ditch that responsibility?  lol 

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

The problem is that Ontario runs Canada.  How would we ditch that responsibility?  lol 

soon as Ontario makes its move, the rest are dragged along kicking & screaming or otherwise,

except for Quebec which seeks Protectorate Status,

[Zeitgeist]

8 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

soon as Ontario makes its move, the rest are dragged along kicking & screaming or otherwise,

except for Quebec which seeks Protectorate Status,

But that may still be a worse option overall for Canadians than simply being in an economic union of two countries with the U.S. that has free movement of people and goods.  I’m not sure.  I think it would depend on how much bureaucracy and duplication we could remove over time, and how aligned we become policy-wise.  It’s one of those questions that is unanswerable right now but will become clearer over time.

The biggest obstacle is vested interests.  How do you eliminate those layers of bureaucracy? The people have to see the value and choose it.  The big incentive is lower taxes and greater opportunity. People can get stuck on ideas too.  Culture is an important consideration.  Self-determination too obviously.

Edited March 29 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

But that may still be a worse option overall for Canadians than simply being in an economic union of two countries with the U.S. that has free movement of people and goods.

depends on whether America is offering that union or not,

Donald Trump is going about this in a very ham handed fashion inciting a backlash,

but there are subtler and more effective ways which America could apply pressure, over time,

long after the Boomers are gone, 

when immigrants make up the dominant majority of the Canadian population,

that population may simply become sick of living behind an Iron Curtain,

to wit, what does a Punjabi Sikh care for Isaac Brock ?

Edited March 29 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

depends on whether America is offering that union or not,

Donald Trump is going about this in a very ham handed fashion inciting a backlash,

but there are subtler and more effective ways which America could apply pressure, over time,

long after the Boomers are gone and when immigrants make up the majority of the Canadian population,

that population may simply become sick of living behind an Iron Curtain

True, but the rhetoric out of Ottawa, our media, and even international media, including half the U.S. media is that Canada is the cooler cat in this match.  Carney spoke with authority and garnered attention.  Of course we know the deadbeat military status of Canada and the airhead radical progressivism of the last 10 years under Trudeau, but right now the Canadian government sounds pretty adroit and of the common people. Most Canadians are on board.  

[Dougie93]

13 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

  I’m not sure.  I think it would depend on how much bureaucracy and duplication we could remove over time, and how aligned we become policy-wise. 

I think it would just come down to money in the end,

as America continues to get richer while Canada continues to get poorer,

as the MAGA Republicans die off like Dinosaurs and America actually becomes more Progressive not less,

at some point, the difference between New York & Toronto becomes indistinguishable

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

True, but the rhetoric out of Ottawa, our media, and even international media, including half the U.S. media is that Canada is the cooler cat in this match.  Carney spoke with authority and garnered attention.  Of course we know the deadbeat military status of Canada and the airhead radical progressivism of the last 10 years under Trudeau, but right now the Canadian government sounds pretty adroit and of the common people. Most Canadians are on board.  

which is why I am going with Carney over the CPC "Canada First" position,

even Carney's defence plans are better and more realistic than Poilievre's,

contrary to popular myth, it's actually the Liberals who have spent the most on the military over time,

the Conservatives want their tax cuts, only the Liberals want to spend big on anything at all,

Paul Martin was a better friend to DND than Stephen Harper was

[Zeitgeist]

24 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I think it would just come down to money in the end,

as America continues to get richer while Canada continues to get poorer,

as the MAGA Republicans die off like Dinosaurs and America actually becomes more Progressive not less,

at some point, the difference between New York & Toronto becomes indistinguishable

Yeah it’s really a continent of regions: Main, New Hampshire, and the Maritimes down to Boston, MA. Boston is as much the Nova Scotia team as the Leafs.

Ontario, New York, Michigan, Minnesota, and you could almost add Pennsylvania, Ohio and Wisconsin by association.

BC to Northen California is one unit politically and culturally in many ways.

The prairies, North Dakota, Montana, etc.

The states and provinces in these regions are more similar to each other culturally and economically than these provinces are to the territories or Quebec.

However, these provinces share borders with the territories and have a relationship with them too.  Ontario and the Maritimes have their own deep relationships with Quebec that are more integrated than say, Vermont or New York are with Quebec.

There are some cool cultural and national features that Ontario has connecting us with Quebec in places like Ottawa with the Rideau.  There are French speaking towns running through northern Ontario to Manitoba that can be traced back to the original settlement patterns of Canada.  I don’t have to tell you that there are French towns throughout the Maritimes and running as far west as Alberta.  There are also around 200 Indigenous groups throughout Canada.  These can’t ever be downplayed in cultural significance, whether or not our main government eventually shifts to Washington.   

Edited March 29 by Zeitgeist