Canada Needs to Redirect Energy and Trade Away From U.S.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

if Canada had to meet its continental & NATO military obligations,

Canada could not afford the social programs which give Canadians an advantage over Americans,

so when push comes to shove, Canada ain't gonna do it,

this is what the Republicans know ; Canada is subsidized by Canada ignoring its national defence

Not entirely.  The U.S. pays more out of its GDP for healthcare and gets worse outcomes overall.  I agree that certain benefits would likely have to go, such as 10 dollar a day daycare and free dental for kids.  We do pay more taxes to have these benefits, which is a decision taxpayers can make.  My guess is that over the next several years we get our military spending up to 2% of GDP.  The challenge right now is getting those ships and planes.  We’re getting the icebreakers and a few destroyers.  We have a major order for F-35’s.  I just hope that what we get is enough to really give us defensive capacity, because China, Russia, and the U.S. are trying to expand territory and treating the globe like an imperial playground.

In many ways Canada represents rule of law and treaty obligations.  If those are violated, those violations can happen anywhere.  It’s already happened in Ukraine.  

[Dougie93]

8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Not entirely.  The U.S. pays more out of its GDP for healthcare and gets worse outcomes overall.

the standard Canadian line, as if Canadian socialist healthcare was some sort of panacea,

sure, Canada has more socialism,

but Americans are twice as rich as Canadians,

I don't think Americans would actually trade their economic power for the privilege of lining up for OHIP

11 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

In many ways Canada represents rule of law and treaty obligations.

bullshit,

there's plenty of lawlessness in Canadian governance and Canada does not in anyway uphold its treaty obligations

[Dougie93]

13 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

  We have a major order for F-35’s.

it's not a major order, out of 3,500 F-35's on order, Canada has ordered 88

 if Canada wants to cancel the F-35 all over again, go right ahead,

just another reason why America should not cut Canada any slack at all,

17 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

  My guess is that over the next several years we get our military spending up to 2% of GDP.

that wouldn't come close to undoing the decades of Canada under funding its military,

another 0.6% is not going to result in a capable Canadian military

[Zeitgeist]

13 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the standard Canadian line, as if Canadian socialist healthcare was some sort of panacea,

sure, Canada has more socialism,

but Americans are twice as rich as Canadians,

I don't think Americans would actually trade their economic power for the privilege of lining up for OHIP

bullshit,

there's plenty of lawlessness in Canadian governance and Canada does not in anyway uphold its treaty obligations

Far from perfect, but the answer isn’t more lawlessness.  

[Dougie93]

25 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

  We’re getting the icebreakers and a few destroyers. 

without America backing Canada up, I seriously doubt Canada would open fire in anger against Russia nor China

if I was the Chinese, I would just call Canada's bluff and sail right through the Northwest Passage with impunity

Freedom of Navigation in International Waters ; suck it, Canada

[Dougie93]

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Far from perfect, but the answer isn’t more lawlessness.  

I don't actually look to Canada for answers,

again ; not part of the Canadian conformist collective anymore,

like Mark Carney, I own a dream home on a dream property in Canada,

but also like Mark Carney, I'm not otherwise significantly invested in Canada

Globalist Free Trade FTW ; you can't have it both ways, Canada ; are you up for that or not ?

Edited March 14 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

8 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

it's not a major order, out of 3,500 F-35's on order, Canada has ordered 88

 if Canada wants to cancel the F-35 all over again, go right ahead,

just another reason why America should not cut Canada any slack at all,

that wouldn't come close to undoing the decades of Canada under funding its military,

another 0.6% is not going to result in a capable Canadian military

Major militarization is a waste of money.  In the end the Yanks aren’t letting Russia or China invade Canada.   If the Yanks want to invade Canada, go for it.  They can plant US flags and hold elections and the same Canada of old will emerge.  Good luck subjugating people who look and sound like you and may be your relatives.  We still have NATO.  We still have article 5 obligating NATO to come to our defence. The U.S. could only contradict its own constitutional principles for so long without international and domestic backlash. 

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Major militarization is a waste of money.  In the end the Yanks aren’t letting Russia or China invade Canada.   If the Yanks want to invade Canada, go for it.

so here we come to the truth, "elbows up" Canada is in fact bluffing,

Canada will remain an American protectorate by default,

negating the need for America to actually invade,

since America can simply blockade Canada to gain compliance at her leisure therein

Edited March 14 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

15 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

  We still have article 5 obligating NATO to come to our defence.

Article V doesn't obligate any member of NATO to go to war for you,

Article V only stipulates ;

that member states contribute what they "deem necessary" in the event of it being invoked

the Europeans could easily fulfill their Article V obligations simply by sending a strongly worded letter of protest

even in the Cold War, NATO was never an ironclad agreement,

it all relied on America to "deem it necessary" for America to go to war for Western Europe

so it's back to going to Washington with cap in hand therein, Canada ; good luck with that

Edited March 14 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Article V doesn't obligate any member of NATO to go to war for you,

Article V only stipulates ;

that member states contribute what they "deem necessary" in the event of it being invoked

the Europeans could easily fulfill their Article V obligations simply by sending a strongly worded letter of protest.

so it's back to going to Washington with cap in hand therein, Canada ; good luck with that

Right, so Canada has to pay for its defence or it won’t be taken seriously as an independent country.  I mean we’re not the only ones.  Many European countries spend as we do on military, but they’re part of a European collective. If the U.S. chooses to give Canada a hard time, we’re vulnerable, so we need to pay for our defence.  

[Dougie93]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Right, so Canada has to pay for its defence or it won’t be taken seriously as an independent country.

but since Canada would have to give up its parochialism and picayune socialism to do that,

it's not actually going to happen,

Canada is not British North America anymore, Canada is no longer the Shock Troops of the Empire,

rather Canada is a soft as warm baby shit Cosmopolitan society now, Woke Progressivism as the state religion 

culture is destiny

 

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

  Many European countries spend as we do on military, but they’re part of a European collective.

Europe is relying on the Ukrainians & Poles to defend them,

Eastern Europe as the bulwark for Western Europe,

that doesn't do much for Canada in the Arctic tho

 

[Dougie93]

42 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 Good luck subjugating people who look and sound like you and may be your relatives. 

young Canadians were raised with "No Pride In Genocide" and they are broke as well,

so almost half of them are ready to become Americans right now,

where they would make twice as much for doing the same work they do in Canada

33% of Canadian Conservatives say they would consider being the 51st State if the Liberals win another majority

America doesn't need to subjugate a Canada which cuts its own economic throat,

while denigrating its own colours to its own youth

America just needs to sit back and wait for disenfranchised Canadians to come to her,

manifest destiny ; slowly but surely

Edited March 14 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

47 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

   If the Yanks want to invade Canada, go for it. 

just wait for Canadians to overthrow their own system of governance, already in progress,

a people without a history are easy to control, nary a shot fired

[Army Guy]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

You actually believe we should and can seal it to the extent it is utterly impenetrable.  You've made it clear nothing less will do.

Because Mr Trump says so.

This is what i do believe that CBSA says we are only checking 1 % of all containers and trucks coming into the country and zero of the trains....i think we can do a lot better than 1 % even you would have to admit That's a pretty low standard, it should be a huge red flag to all Canadians that our country is not even close to secure. 

And i have made no such claim that our country should be utterly impenetrable....Mr trump has a point our border security does suck, regardless of how much drugs come and go from our borders...It is one of the primary jobs of the federal government to secure and provide security to the nation. 

[Army Guy]

10 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Ummm…. No.  It’s unsecured.  There’s no fence or anything for 99% of it.  And no fentanyl “czar” is going to secure it.  Have you never looked on Google maps?

What is it with you guys so easily overwhelmed , have you seen our border, it can't be secured....does it really need a fence, i'd be happy with CBSA checking more than 1 % of all trucks and containers entering the country, and zero trains i mean come on...and as for a fence some areas need a fence a large one, just to control illegal immigrants from entering or freezing top death trying to make the crossing .

I have looked on the border i live next to the border, the liberals rented 4 Black hawk helicopters just because it is a huge border...the 1.38 investment will go into drones, and sensors to keep an eye on that vast border...not sure how you don't see this as an issue....

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Major militarization is a waste of money.  In the end the Yanks aren’t letting Russia or China invade Canada.   If the Yanks want to invade Canada, go for it.  They can plant US flags and hold elections and the same Canada of old will emerge.  Good luck subjugating people who look and sound like you and may be your relatives.  We still have NATO.  We still have article 5 obligating NATO to come to our defence. The U.S. could only contradict its own constitutional principles for so long without international and domestic backlash. 

Our military is not so much for the defence of Canada, due to our global position on the map, that and the fact we have 3 major oceans as borders, we really don't need the US protection....we do however need their cooperation in defending our skies, and northern water ways...the bulk of our military is to maintain our NATO, NORAD commitments plus all the other defense related agreements we have signed on to...we must have a force that can contribute a military force that is able to operate in a high intensity battle field. one that Canada could sustain for long periods of time....to put that into context we are struggling to put together a battle group, the smallest military formation that has any power...we tried supporting two battle groups , or a small brigade group in Afghanistan and could not sustain it for long....today that would be impossible.  

[Zeitgeist]

Trump himself has said that the northern border is an artificial line.  In any event it’s up to the U.S. to check people entering the US.  At least as many drugs enter Canada from the U.S. as the reverse, and we have guns coming in from the U.S. constantly.  The fentanyl story is just an excuse for imposing tariffs.  POTUS can skirt Congress by crying national security.

Trump wants Canada as 51st state and he’s trying to apply economic pressure to get there.  Canadians simply need to decide whether it’s worth the price of defending our sovereignty.  Really Trump should be explaining how statehood would benefit Canada and see if there’s interest.  My guess is that Canadians need to know that the services they value can stay and that they have self-determination.  Probably the best way to ensure that is through economic union rather than political union.  I don’t think Republicans want so many Democratic voters. It would get a lot more support on both sides of the border as a union of two separate countries.

[suds]

Tariffs on aluminum isn't really going to affect Canadian smelters especially those in Quebec which has 8.  Power is 1/2 of production costs, and due to low hydro electric power rates, energy prices can be 3 times lower than with U.S. counterparts. And get this... the aluminum association of Canada claims that 'most contracts between Canada and the U.S. have a clause built in agreeing that the American company purchasing Canadian aluminum pay whatever tariffs are put into place'. For some reason steel producers  in Canada aren't quite so lucky, but they do have one thing going for them which is low energy costs meaning low carbon footprints. Beginning in 2026, the EU will introduce significant tariffs on materials based on carbon footprints which will make Canadian steel a bargain. If this lower carbon footprint tariff thing catches on around the world this might really be good for our economy.

[Dougie93]

7 minutes ago, suds said:

Tariffs on aluminum isn't really going to affect Canadian . . .

but it's not just tariffs in a vacuum,

it's tariffs, plus deregulation, plus tax cuts,

even just the threat of tariffs has brought all investment in Canada to a halt,

this war is only a month old, America hasn't even started to drop its bombs yet, and already Canada is reeling

[suds]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

but it's not just tariffs in a vacuum,

it's tariffs, plus deregulation, plus tax cuts,

even just the threat of tariffs has brought all investment in Canada to a halt,

this war is only a month old, America hasn't even started to drop its bombs yet, and already Canada is reeling

Well that's true because uncertainty is unsettling. I would say the best way to whether any possible storm is to vote for Poilievre instead of the guy who wants to get rid of oil, gas, pipelines, or anything that's energy intensive such as smeltering or mining. As I've said yesterday on another thread, we have a relatively low carbon footprint when it comes to electrical power and manufacturing. Let's put it to good use not only for our advantage but the world's as well.

[Zeitgeist]

15 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

but it's not just tariffs in a vacuum,

it's tariffs, plus deregulation, plus tax cuts,

even just the threat of tariffs has brought all investment in Canada to a halt,

this war is only a month old, America hasn't even started to drop its bombs yet, and already Canada is reeling

Yeah it’s going to be pricey for both countries, but Canada is remaining a free trader with Europe and many other countries We’ll adjust 

[Dougie93]

Just now, suds said:

 I would say the best way to whether any possible storm is to vote for Poilievre

it's not an American Presidential Election,

this being Canada, I vote by Westminster Parliamentary Supremacy,

which is for whichever MP I think will serve me best, regardless of party affiliation,

let that local affiliation writ large determine whom forms HM Government,

otherwise, you might as well just become the 51st State ; in for a penny in for a pound

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Yeah it’s going to be pricey for both countries, but Canada is remaining a free trader with Europe and many other countries We’ll adjust 

I don't rely upon Canadian industry for my prosperity, so I will just go with market forces wherever they lead me

as you say ; free trader

[suds]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

it's not an American Presidential Election,

this being Canada, I vote by Westminster Parliamentary Supremacy,

which is for whichever MP I think will serve me best, regardless of party affiliation,

let that local affiliation writ large determine whom forms HM Government,

otherwise, you might as well just become the 51st State ; in for a penny in for a pound

Knock yourself out bud, but I know who I want as fearless leader and I vote accordingly.  😉

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, suds said:

Knock yourself out bud, but I know who I want as fearless leader and I vote accordingly.  😉

I don't recognize the Canadian Prime Minister as my leader ; merely a glorified civil servant