Nationalist Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 18 minutes ago, Black Dog said: I'm sure that's what you tell yourself, but I don't think it's true. Common sense would not lead someone to support the unprovoked invasion of a western ally by a murderous dictator. Something else is driving it, ideology or mere contrarianism. No...just common sense. For instance...common sense tells us that yes, Russia did in fact invade Ukraine. However common sense also tells us that NATO and the USA had a rather interesting role in provoking that. Common sense...its may not always be popular...but it is factual. 1 Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
Black Dog Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Nationalist said: No...just common sense. For instance...common sense tells us that yes, Russia did in fact invade Ukraine. However common sense also tells us that NATO and the USA had a rather interesting role in provoking that. Common sense...its may not always be popular...but it is factual. See you're just proving my point that common sense isn't real, it's just a slogan anyone can use. Edited February 7 by Black Dog Quote
Nationalist Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 3 minutes ago, Black Dog said: See you're just proving my point that common sense isn't real, it's just a slogan anyone can use. That's an opinion of yours. Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
Black Dog Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 (edited) 1 minute ago, Nationalist said: That's an opinion of yours. Sure just as it's your opinion that Russia's imperialist war of aggression is defensible, what's your point? The difference is, I would never be so arrogant as to mask my subjective opinions as universal common sense. Edited February 7 by Black Dog Quote
Nationalist Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Sure just as it's your opinion that Russia's imperialist war of aggression is defensible, what's your point? The difference is, I would never be so arrogant as to mask my subjective opinions as universal common sense. I didn't say its "defensible". I said its "understandable". None of this shitshow is "defensible" from 2014 through to today. And sure you do. You do that all the time. Hence your choice of the word "defensible". Come on Pup. Show me you can think past basic levels. Edited February 7 by Nationalist Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
Black Dog Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 Just now, Nationalist said: I didn't say its "defensible". I said its "understandable". None of this shitshow is "defensible" from 2014 through to today. Those words means the same thing lol. Quote
Nationalist Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 3 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Those words means the same thing lol. No they don't. I can understand why something happened without defending it happening. Really...think man. Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
Black Dog Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 8 minutes ago, Nationalist said: No they don't. I can understand why something happened without defending it happening. Really...think man. Except, your "understanding" is based on claims that have been made specifically to justify the event in question. Quote
Nationalist Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 25 minutes ago, Black Dog said: Except, your "understanding" is based on claims that have been made specifically to justify the event in question. I could give a rat's ass why they were made. They happen to be mostly true. That's all I care about. Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
NAME REMOVED Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 10 hours ago, Scott75 said: I like Garry Kasparov, so if he says that Putin "controls more money, directly or indirectly, than any other individual in the history of the human race", I'm willing to believe he may just be right. But I've never seen any evidence for this notion that Putin "aims to dominate the world". Not wanting to live next to a neighbour that had been killing Russian speakers and ethnic Russians for the past 8 years, had been planning on retaking the Donbass Republics and Crimea, and which had nuclear weapon ambitions, on the other hand, I can fully understand. His reaction to all of this was akin to JFK's reaction to the Cuban Missile Crisis. In -that- crisis, Russia had the good sense to negotiate a deal with the U.S. early on, thus preventing a war between the U.S. and Cuba. The United States, on the other hand, had grown far too arrogant: It started moving to break its 1990 promise to not expand NATO "one inch eastward" of Germany soon after making it back in 1991, with the breakup of the Soviet Union and admitted 3 countries east of Germany in 1999. In 2008, it also supported Ukraine's bid to join. Scott, you are simping for Putin, and Russian misinformation once again. Please stop. Quote
Nationalist Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 2 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: Scott, you are simping for Putin, and Russian misinformation once again. Please stop. No he's not. He's telling the cold truth. You may not like that but...tough titty. The ONLY disputable point @Scott75 has made, is that the "promise to not expand NATO "one inch eastward" of Germany" was never put in writing and the USA has been hiding behind that for years now. 1 Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
Black Dog Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 3 minutes ago, Nationalist said: No he's not. He's telling the cold truth. You may not like that but...tough titty. The ONLY disputable point @Scott75 has made, is that the "promise to not expand NATO "one inch eastward" of Germany" was never put in writing and the USA has been hiding behind that for years now. That "promise" was made to a country that no longer exists so even if it happened, it's not applicable here. Quote
Gaétan Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 (edited) 23 hours ago, godzilla said: so you're asking why Putin invaded? are you ignorant of what its like to be a citizen of Russia and that of a democracy? if JT said, no more media unless it praises me! all elections will be rigged in my favour! all industries and business will be transferred to my political colleagues! i shall run the state forever! you'd prefer that kind of Canada or the admittedly not perfect system that we and most western democracies have now? Russia is a democratic country as much as Canada and what is worth to be proud of being a Ukrainian citizen after hundred of thousands of deaths if they could win something. Live of thousand people is more important than to have a document saying that you are an Ukrainian citizen. Edited February 7 by Gaétan Quote
Nationalist Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 3 minutes ago, Black Dog said: That "promise" was made to a country that no longer exists so even if it happened, it's not applicable here. OK that's a bit of hair-splitting but...OK. Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
Hodad Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 4 hours ago, Nationalist said: No...just common sense. For instance...common sense tells us that yes, Russia did in fact invade Ukraine. However common sense also tells us that NATO and the USA had a rather interesting role in provoking that. Common sense...its may not always be popular...but it is factual. Common sense?🤣 Like how if you see a woman carrying pepper spray as defense against attackers that must constitute a provocation to attack her. More like zero sense. Quote
Nationalist Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 4 minutes ago, Hodad said: Common sense?🤣 Like how if you see a woman carrying pepper spray as defense against attackers that must constitute a provocation to attack her. More like zero sense. Not at all...and I gave my daughter pepper spray for Christmas... It's like promising a woman you'll take care of her, and then fcking off. Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
Hodad Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 (edited) 1 minute ago, Nationalist said: Not at all...and I gave my daughter pepper spray for Christmas... It's like promising a woman you'll take care of her, and then fcking off. You had better take it away! You've said over and over again that preparing to defend oneself against an aggressor is provoking the aggressor and justifying the inevitable attack. I can't believe even you would do that to your own daughter. Edited February 7 by Hodad Quote
Nationalist Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 5 minutes ago, Hodad said: You had better take it away! You've said over and over again that preparing to defend oneself against an aggressor is provoking the aggressor and justifying the inevitable attack. I can't believe even you would do that to your own daughter. Ok you're gonna have to remind me where I said that. She's fine. And now she has pepper spray in her little purse. Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
NAME REMOVED Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 4 hours ago, Nationalist said: No he's not. He's telling the cold truth. You may not like that but...tough titty. The ONLY disputable point @Scott75 has made, is that the "promise to not expand NATO "one inch eastward" of Germany" was never put in writing and the USA has been hiding behind that for years now. Prove it. Provide some concrete evidence that the United States promised Gorbachev or Yeltsin they would not expand NATO to former Eastern Bloc countries.. Quote
Hodad Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 1 hour ago, Nationalist said: Ok you're gonna have to remind me where I said that. She's fine. And now she has pepper spray in her little purse. That's your entire position on the invasion of Ukraine. Ukraine was (rightly) afraid of their aggressive Russian neighbor. They sought purely defensive aid and alliance--which you say constitutes provocation of Russia and justifies the invasion. 2 Quote
Nationalist Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 2 hours ago, Hodad said: That's your entire position on the invasion of Ukraine. Ukraine was (rightly) afraid of their aggressive Russian neighbor. They sought purely defensive aid and alliance--which you say constitutes provocation of Russia and justifies the invasion. Horseshit. Pure horseshit. 1 Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
NAME REMOVED Posted February 8 Report Posted February 8 11 minutes ago, Nationalist said: Horseshit. Pure horseshit. Please do not tell us what you had for lunch. Quote
Scott75 Posted February 8 Author Report Posted February 8 (edited) 20 hours ago, robosmith said: On 2/7/2025 at 3:02 AM, Scott75 said: I like Garry Kasparov, so if he says that Putin "controls more money, directly or indirectly, than any other individual in the history of the human race", I'm willing to believe he may just be right. But I've never seen any evidence for this notion that Putin "aims to dominate the world". Just listen to what Putin SAID: Putin: Soviet collapse a 'genuine tragedy' NBC News https://www.nbcnews.com › wbna7632057 Apr 25, 2005 — Russian President Vladimir Putin told the nation Monday that the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.” Putin rues Soviet collapse as demise of 'historical Russia' Reuters https://www.reuters.com › world › europe › putin-rues-... Dec 12, 2021 — President Vladimir Putin has lamented the collapse of the Soviet Union three decades ago as the demise of what he called "historical Russia". Did Vladimir Putin call the breakup of the USSR ... PolitiFact https://www.politifact.com › mar › john-bolton › did-vl... Mar 6, 2014 — Vladimir Putin once said, "The breakup of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century." I've listened to a lot of what Putin has said since it started its military operation in Ukraine. But I'll humour you and quote from the first article in your list: ** Russian President Vladimir Putin told the nation Monday that the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century” and had fostered separatist movements inside Russia. In his annual state of the nation address to parliament and the country’s top political leaders, Putin said the Soviet collapse also was a tragedy for Russians. “First and foremost it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Putin said. “As for the Russian people, it became a genuine tragedy. Tens of millions of our fellow citizens and countrymen found themselves beyond the fringes of Russian territory. “The epidemic of collapse has spilled over to Russia itself,” he said, referring to separatist movements such as those in Chechnya. Putin’s statements were some of his strongest language to date about the Soviet collapse and come a month before the nation celebrates the 60th anniversary of the end of World War II in Europe, a conflict Russians call the “Great Patriotic War.” ** Source: https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna7632057 Now, where in that text does it support your contention that Putin "aims to dominate the world"? Now here's something he -has- said, and it certainly applies to much of what became eastern Ukraine in 1991: ** “It was a disintegration of historical Russia under the name of the Soviet Union,” Putin said of the 1991 breakup, in comments aired on Sunday as part of a documentary film called “Russia. New History,” the RIA state news agency reported. “We turned into a completely different country. And what had been built up over 1,000 years was largely lost,” said Putin, saying 25 million Russian people in newly independent countries suddenly found themselves cut off from Russia, part of what he called “a major humanitarian tragedy.” ** Source: https://nationalpost.com/news/world/putin-laments-end-of-historical-russia-decrying-hardships-that-resulted-after-fall-of-u-s-s-r Most prominent in regards to Ukraine was Crimea, which had been part of Russia a lot longer than it had been part of Ukraine. Canadian American journalist Eva Bartlett wrote a good article on this reality and the feelings of Crimeans she spoke to when she visited Crimea back in 2019: https://www.mintpressnews.com/return-russia-crimea-story-referendum-lives-since/262247/ Edited February 8 by Scott75 Quote
Scott75 Posted February 8 Author Report Posted February 8 (edited) 19 hours ago, Nationalist said: No he's not. He's telling the cold truth. You may not like that but...tough titty. The ONLY disputable point @Scott75 has made, is that the "promise to not expand NATO "one inch eastward" of Germany" was never put in writing and the USA has been hiding behind that for years now. Technically, it was put in writing, in the sense that it was recorded in writing: https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early What people really mean when they say it wasn't put into writing was that it wasn't put into a written agreement. I see that Black Dog also pointed out that the deal was made with the Soviet Union, not with Russia in post #212. But we all know that Russia was the heart of the Soviet Union, and they also retained all the Soviet Union's nukes. I think a good analogy is if Alaska became independent and Russia said any deals with the U.S. were now moot because the U.S. just wasn't the same. You could do it, but I think in both cases, it's basically like punching a bear when it's wounded. I think we can can agree it's not the best idea. More importantly, the U.S. wouldn't take a break of any previous agreements lying down, whether formal or not. Why would anyone expect Russia to? This whole debacle in Ukraine is one that was predicted a decade ago. I got into this with DUI back in post #102. Quoting: ** It is not as if no one knew about the dangers. From Henry Kissinger to Zbigniew Brzezinski to George Kennan, experienced American statesmen have warned that even talking about Westernizing Ukraine through NATO might be fatal to peace. As John Mearsheimer cautioned us in September 2015, “the West is leading Ukraine down the primrose path, and the end result is that Ukraine is going to get wrecked.” Mearsheimer’s prescient speech has received 21 million views on YouTube, almost half in the last few weeks, with Washington insiders and media poohbahs excoriating him as a Putin apologist, even as a petition campaign was launched to get Mearsheimer fired from the University of Chicago. We would have better off heeding his warning. Compounding the damage, Washington’s loud championing of the Ukrainian cause has recently been accompanied by contrary signs of weakness and appeasement, from the humiliating botch of the NATO withdrawal from Afghanistan last summer to President Biden’s hint that a “minor incursion” into Ukraine might not occasion a decisive response. Like Chamberlain veering between irrational extremes in 1938-1939, the West’s Ukraine policy has blatantly provoked Russian anxieties and offered Ukrainians the false promise of an American security umbrella, while doing nowhere near enough to actually deter Russia. Ukraine may not suffer as badly as Poland did from 1939 to 1945, but much of the country has already gotten wrecked. ** Source: https://americanmind.org/salvo/the-primrose-path-to-catastrophe/ ** West commended my post in his post #104. As to DUI, I'm still not sure if he ever read it. I suspect he likes short posts better. Edited February 8 by Scott75 1 Quote
Scott75 Posted February 8 Author Report Posted February 8 17 hours ago, DUI_Offender said: 21 hours ago, Nationalist said: No he's not. He's telling the cold truth. You may not like that but...tough titty. The ONLY disputable point @Scott75 has made, is that the "promise to not expand NATO "one inch eastward" of Germany" was never put in writing and the USA has been hiding behind that for years now. Prove it. Provide some concrete evidence that the United States promised Gorbachev or Yeltsin they would not expand NATO to former Eastern Bloc countries.. I imagine you never clicked on the link embedded in Nationalist's quote. From said link: ** Documents show Gorbachev was assured US wouldn't expand NATO into Central and Eastern Europe U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu). The documents show that multiple national leaders were considering and rejecting Central and Eastern European membership in NATO as of early 1990 and through 1991, that discussions of NATO in the context of German unification negotiations in 1990 were not at all narrowly limited to the status of East German territory, and that subsequent Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion were founded in written contemporaneous memcons and telcons at the highest levels. The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.”[1] The key phrase, buttressed by the documents, is “led to believe.” President George H.W. Bush had assured Gorbachev during the Malta summit in December 1989 that the U.S. would not take advantage (“I have not jumped up and down on the Berlin Wall”) of the revolutions in Eastern Europe to harm Soviet interests; but neither Bush nor Gorbachev at that point (or for that matter, West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl) expected so soon the collapse of East Germany or the speed of German unification.[2] The first concrete assurances by Western leaders on NATO began on January 31, 1990, when West German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher opened the bidding with a major public speech at Tutzing, in Bavaria, on German unification. The U.S. Embassy in Bonn (see Document 1) informed Washington that Genscher made clear “that the changes in Eastern Europe and the German unification process must not lead to an ‘impairment of Soviet security interests.’ Therefore, NATO should rule out an ‘expansion of its territory towards the east, i.e. moving it closer to the Soviet borders.’” The Bonn cable also noted Genscher’s proposal to leave the East German territory out of NATO military structures even in a unified Germany in NATO.[3] ... Read entire article at National Security Archive ** Source: https://www.historynewsnetwork.org/article/documents-show-gorbachev-was-assured-us-wouldnt-ex 1 Quote
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