Islam is the religion of conquest, of war, of bigotry and violence, the religion of rape and slavery.

[Goddess]

On 11/29/2025 at 1:25 PM, I am Groot said:

They're not secular because Islam does not allow for secular government. If you are an observant Muslim, you want an Islamic government run under Sharia law.

I don't think this statement can even be denied anymore.

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, John Stone said:

Yeah, lots of contradictions

1. ..........however.......why did so many inhabitants of the long Muslim "street," stretching from Morocco to Indonesia, appear to be overjoyed by what Osama bin Laden's henchmen had accomplished?

2. For that matter, why were certain Islamic jurists in Pakistan issuing fatwas directing Muslims to fight American infidels if they attacked Afghanistan? And why do firebrand clerics throughout the Islamic world continue to issue equally inflammatory decrees? Most disturbing, some of those same voices of moderation had occasionally expressed their approval of Islamic groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah that engage in terrorism.

3. Remind me where Osama was finally captured / tried/ executed ........... years after the attack?

4. I am not so ignorant as to accuse entire Islam of supporting  Islamic Terrorism ........... just as I am not so ignorant as to accuse every German of being a Nazi sympathizer.  However in their denunciation I believe their condemnation could be more .................. forceful? 

5. Exhibit A might be the support within the Continental U.S.  for Hamas (Oct 7th)  in carrying out their act of war. 

Just a few, u say?

I say entire Countries! 

1. Were they or did they appear to be?

2. Why do America's enemies hate America, you mean to ask.  Good question.

3. Nowhere/nowhere/Pakistan.

4. If you want to move the goalposts, it's fine with me.

Anyway, my previous post stands.  I have recently had a similar discussion with WestCan.  People respond to my point that arguing such things is fruitless by arguing it.

 

[I am Groot]

On 2/22/2026 at 8:40 AM, Michael Hardner said:

I was on this board in the early 2000s where I first saw this message.  I would respond with cites from various Islamic groups condemning terrorism but it didn't matter, people still posited this point.

I would respond that the problem with Islam is its unwavering determination that all the world must be under Islam, and that until that time, there will be endless war against all the lands that refuse to bow to Mecca. 

On 2/22/2026 at 8:40 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Let's be honest: the reason to criticize an entire culture and to label them as 'bad' is to feel good about oneself, ie vanity.

You think the only reason to criticize Islamic culture is to feel good about myself? What if I heavily disapprove of so many religion-based aspects of Islamic culture and society that I am disgusted by its barbarism, intolerance, and brutality? Not to mention that it insists everyone join it and live under its savage rules or die.

 

[I am Groot]

On 2/22/2026 at 7:55 AM, John Stone said:

The problem with Islam is not so much the Islamic belief - but the silence in condemning terrorist acts conducted under the  flag of Islam.

No, the problem with Islam most definitely IS Islamic beliefs. 

The other is secondary, and principally comes from hypocrisy. 

[I am Groot]

On 1/30/2026 at 3:11 PM, John Johnston said:

A little context.

https://www.forbes5.pitt.edu/article/religion-ideology-conquest

This individual plucks a few examples of tolerance in a few Islamic rulers from centuries past and you believe this demonstrates some sort of context for today? 

[Michael Hardner]

29 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

 

You think the only reason to criticize Islamic culture is to feel good about myself?

What if I heavily disapprove of so many religion-based aspects of Islamic culture and society that I am disgusted by its barbarism, intolerance, and brutality? Not to mention that it insists everyone join it and live under its savage rules or die.

 

We know how you feel.  But what's the point of condemning it outright?  It makes no difference.

I suggest that people enjoy exalting the superior aspects of their culture.  Hence, it's a vanity exercise and not a fulcrum for discussion purposes to do so.

 

And, also, in many cases ...

 

People respond to my point that arguing such things is fruitless by arguing it.  But you didn't do that here, exactly, you talked about your fe.  That's why I responded.

[John Stone]

38 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

No, the problem with Islam most definitely IS Islamic beliefs. 

The other is secondary, and principally comes from hypocrisy. 

 - it is not so much Islamic beliefs or the Qur'an per se, it is more about  individual or a sect's interpretation of the Qur'an.  

Any religious fundamentalist sect adheres to their interpretation as being more pure -more correct-more divine. 

Edited March 15 by John Stone

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, John Stone said:

 - it is not so much Islamic beliefs or the Qur'an per se, it is more about  individual or a sect's interpretation of the Qur'an.  

In relation to the West, material conditions about geography, geology, and such cause more problems than the religion.

[John Stone]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

In relation to the West, material conditions about geography, geology, and such cause more problems than the religion.

Arguably faith is much stronger in Islamic countries than it is in the West  .............. the fuel (religious beliefs)  that drives conflict................ or the pretext to conflict.  

 

 

[I am Groot]

14 minutes ago, John Stone said:

 - it is not so much Islamic beliefs or the Qur'an per se, it is more about  individual or a sect's interpretation of the Qur'an.  

Any religious fundamentalist sect adheres to their interpretation as being more pure -more correct-more divine. 

Or as Sam Harris has said "The only problem with Muslim fundamentalists are the fundamentals of Islam."

Muhammed is considered the perfect man, the man all Muslims should emulate. Now look at ISIS. It murders and tortures and rapes. It enslaves girls, literally puts them on sale as sex slaves. It beheads people from other religions who refuse to convert. 

Muhammed did all of these things repeatedly. And Islam makes no apologies for it but justifies and even glories in his actions. That is the fundamental problem with Islam. It considers all non-believers to be prey and exempts its followers from all morality in dealing with them. You can steal from them, murder them, rape their women, do basically whatever you want to them. All of this is sanctified in the Quran, and no mainstream cleric or school of Islam has ever denied this. They might use soft, weasel words when talking in foreign languages to Westerners, but it's quite clear they have not forsaken any of this.

[I am Groot]

27 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

We know how you feel.  But what's the point of condemning it outright?  It makes no difference.

It CAN make a difference. I, for example, oppose allowing any Muslims to come to Canada to settle here unless they have forsaken much of the core tenets of Islam. I do so by publicly exposing its history, its core beliefs, and the actions of its followers around the world. So do tens and hundreds of thousands of others who see Islam as a creeping, existential danger to the West, who see it as a brutal, intolerant, morally and intellectually bankrupt cult.

The more this information is put out there the more likely people will be to demand governments stop the inflow of Muslims, not just here but across the West. The pushback from the morally bankrupt liberal elites has been furious, of course, no more so than in Canada. It may be that the far right, even parties I personally call far right, will have to gain power in order to do as the public wants, for so far the elites have utterly ignored public concerns. 

 

 

[John Stone]

41 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Or as Sam Harris has said "The only problem with Muslim fundamentalists are the fundamentals of Islam."

Muhammed is considered the perfect man, the man all Muslims should emulate. Now look at ISIS. It murders and tortures and rapes. It enslaves girls, literally puts them on sale as sex slaves. It beheads people from other religions who refuse to convert. 

Muhammed did all of these things repeatedly. And Islam makes no apologies for it but justifies and even glories in his actions. That is the fundamental problem with Islam. It considers all non-believers to be prey and exempts its followers from all morality in dealing with them. You can steal from them, murder them, rape their women, do basically whatever you want to them. All of this is sanctified in the Quran, and no mainstream cleric or school of Islam has ever denied this. They might use soft, weasel words when talking in foreign languages to Westerners, but it's quite clear they have not forsaken any of this.

............. my mother has an interesting saying, 'don't let faith rule ur life' -  Catholic, married 3 times.

 

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, John Stone said:

Arguably faith is much stronger in Islamic countries than it is in the West  .............. the fuel (religious beliefs)  that drives conflict................ or the pretext to conflict.

Hardly even arguable 

But if they had no value, no resources, no geopolitics situational advantage...... It'd be as relevant as zororastianism

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

It CAN make a difference. I, for example, oppose allowing any Muslims to come to Canada to settle here unless they have forsaken much of the core tenets of Islam. I do so by publicly exposing its history, its core beliefs, and the actions of its followers around the world. So do tens and hundreds of thousands of others who see Islam as a creeping, existential danger to the West, who see it as a brutal, intolerant, morally and intellectually bankrupt cult.

The more this information is put out there the more likely people will be to demand governments stop the inflow of Muslims, not just here but across the West. The pushback from the morally bankrupt liberal elites has been furious, of course, no more so than in Canada. It may be that the far right, even parties I personally call far right, will have to gain power in order to do as the public wants, for so far the elites have utterly ignored public concerns. 

 

 

You don't want stop the inflow, you just want to filter it. 

I don't think there's much pushback to filtering and questioning the values of people who come here. 

There's more energy put into finding reasons to fight with opposing personas then discussing actual policy. 

Politics is entertainment, and that's bad for the public sphere. 

See I'm not calling you names, or saying that your desire to filter out extremist is unreasonable. I don't think I ever would say that.

[Goddess]

12 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't think there's much pushback to filtering and questioning the values of people who come here. 

Excuse me?

Literally everyone, including political parties, who have said we need to screen for values have been called racist by the entire left.

[I am Groot]

29 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You don't want stop the inflow, you just want to filter it. 

I don't think there's much pushback to filtering and questioning the values of people who come here. 

You have forgotten that time in 2016, just ten years ago, when Kellie Lietch, ex-cabinet minister running for the Conservative leadership, proposed a 'values test'? The entire media and political establishment lost their collective minds. She was condemned repeatedly by every politician and pundit who could get near a microphone. I think Andrew Coyne wrote at least three frothing-at-the-mouth columns about the idea. Every other Tory leadership candidate disagreed with her, some very strongly. She was denounced by union leaders, academics, and all sorts of NGOs. The only people who had any interest in the idea were... the people. Polls showed the idea was very popular.

Ten years later, we do literally nothing to filter out bad values/views/beliefs. Not in immigrants, not in refugees, not in foreign students or foreign workers.  So why do you think there wouldn't be much pushback?

 

[Michael Hardner]

25 minutes ago, Goddess said:

... we need to screen for values have been called racist by the entire left.

Please provide a cite.

I'll even allow for your tendency to exaggerate...

If you're taking about ten years ago, then I can accept the point ☝️ 

6 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

You have forgotten that time in 2016, just ten years ago, when Kellie Lietch, ex-cabinet minister running for the Conservative leadership, proposed a 'values test'?  

It's different now.  There's open discussion of reducing immigration and the Liberals themselves are doing it.

We're more mature.

Edited March 15 by Michael Hardner

[John Stone]

35 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Hardly even arguable 

But if they had no value, no resources, no geopolitics situational advantage...... It'd be as relevant as zororastianism

U don't consider Zoroastrianism's moral teachings to be relevant - regardless of circumstance??

The importance of individual agency in shaping one's own destiny are central to Zoroastrianism.....  master of ur own fate?  

For example, the so-called Palestinians / Palestine - they refuse to take responsibility for their own fate..... they entrust it to others. 

 

[I am Groot]

16 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

If you're taking about ten years ago, then I can accept the point ☝️ It's different now.  There's open discussion of reducing immigration and the Liberals themselves are doing it.

We're more mature.

So who is calling for screening? I haven't even seen anything in the mainstream media calling for screening for values. I haven't heard any politician calling for it either, from any party. Carny's been in place a year and I have seen nothing to indicate they are looking for even a higher skill level among immigrants, much less better values.

If we were more mature, I would expect Poilievre, at least, to be calling for value screening among immigrants. I haven't heard a peep from him or any other conservative party MP. Their base, absolutely. But their base completely supported values screening when Leitch proposed it. 

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, John Stone said:

U don't consider Zoroastrianism's moral teachings to be relevant - regardless of circumstance??

The importance of individual agency in shaping one's own destiny are central to Zoroastrianism.....  master of ur own fate?  

For example, the so-called Palestinians / Palestine - they refuse to take responsibility for their own fate..... they entrust it to others. 

 

Historically, sure they're significant.

Downside: no religious holidays to speak of...

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

So who is calling for screening? I haven't even seen anything in the mainstream media calling for screening for values. I haven't heard any politician calling for it either, from any party. Carny's been in place a year and I have seen nothing to indicate they are looking for even a higher skill level among immigrants, much less better values.

If we were more mature, I would expect Poilievre, at least, to be calling for value screening among immigrants. I haven't heard a peep from him or any other conservative party MP. Their base, absolutely. But their base completely supported values screening when Leitch proposed it. 

Maybe they're not but I don't think it's unreasonable.

[I am Groot]

36 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Historically, sure they're significant.

Downside: no religious holidays to speak of...

Maybe they're not but I don't think it's unreasonable.

I think it's mandatory and urgent. But it will never happen under a Liberal government because they desperately want those Muslim votes. Watching politics in the UK, as I do, it's striking the similarity to the politics here, both in regard to the problems facing them and to the hypocrisy of left-wing parties more than eager to ignore future problems for votes now.

Canada continues to import many low-skilled people to keep wages down and to appeal to demographic groups that tend to vote Liberal. The Liberals have watered down the 'skilled immigrant' category enormously to bring over more French speakers who will settle in shrinking Francophone areas of English Canada. These will mostly be Muslims: low-skilled people from North Africa and parts of the Middle East. Every statistical study I've ever seen, including those of immigrants in Canada, says these are the least economically successful immigrants/refugees in every country they go to. Not to mention, they commit crimes greatly disproportionate to others.

But they vote Liberal, and bringing them over will also appeal to Francophone groups, who also tend to vote Liberal. And that is all that really matters to the government. 

Edited March 15 by I am Groot

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

I think it's mandatory and urgent. But it will never happen under a Liberal government because they desperately want those Muslim votes.  

Doug Ford was eager to get Muslim votes when he ran on his opposition to sex ed in Ontario. 

Speaking of which, I guess we're saying Canadian values will include tolerance for lgbtq? 

Because it might explain why Poilievre wouldn't want to alienate Christians with a Canadian values screener. 

As I said, I'm all for it.

Let's see what were the questions be: 

Do you support science and understand that climate change is caused by humans? 

Do you support lgbtq people having the right to live as they like? Including teenagers? 

Stuff like that....

[I am Groot]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Doug Ford was eager to get Muslim votes when he ran on his opposition to sex ed in Ontario. 

Yes. He's another liberal.

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Speaking of which, I guess we're saying Canadian values will include tolerance for lgbtq? 

Yes.

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Let's see what were the questions be: 

These questions are simplistic. No offense.

 

[Goddess]

14 hours ago, I am Groot said:

These questions are simplistic.

Pretty telling that MH's main concern with Muslims is whether they have the proper amount of fear of climate change. 🙄

Myself, reflecting on the increase in rapes in the hundreds of %, in countries with large immigration from Muslim countries and the Rotherham rape grooming gangs in the Uk, I would screen for their views on women and whether 9 yr old girls should be available for marriage.

I will never understand the radical left's values.  Or rather, lack of them.

[herbie]

Islam is the religion of conquest, of war, of bigotry and violence, the religion of rape and slavery.

Yet it certainly appears now that American Christian Nationalism isn't any better...