Modern democracy needs regular and active involvement of citizens

[herbie]

Supposedly. That's what they always tell us. Never worked out that way has it?

Neither store here moved to self checkouts. Managers admit shoplifting and theft account for 20%+ as it is.

Must be why you can get eggs for $1 less at any farm, they charge $2.29 lb for bulk potatoes vs 89c and $2.49 for 99c worth of green onions.

[Michael Hardner]

43 minutes ago, herbie said:

Supposedly. That's what they always tell us.  

It is a monopoly.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

Did you get a discount or get paid? Then you're effectively scabbing.

I get a dividend every year like I have for the last 50 years.

Quote

Quicker and more convenient can be accomplished with more cashiers.

My day to day experience is the exact opposite.  The very same sort of consumer co-op the next town over voted against self-checkouts and the line ups are notorious.  I work in both towns and often have to get a thing or two and I'll happily spend .50 more for a jug of milk at the gas bar than risk having to stand in line for 10 minutes.

We're competing with some 20000 visitors a day here, and there are help wanted signs in virtually every window including at both co-ops.  No one is being put out of work around these things but yeah, there's a few noses out of joint over them.  I just don't get the angst myself.

Edited September 27, 2024 by eyeball

[myata]

Western societies are walking into a crisis. The populace is coming, firmly and solidly, to view democracy as a gadget or Santa Claus's bag to shake or knock if and when great things aren't coming out anymore and want to, insist on forgetting that it's a shared responsibility: reason, memory, responsibility. And of course all kind of smart, semi-smart or just lucky to be in the right place with the right color of hair folk figures out how they could use it to their benefit. As always, since who knows how far and deep, would anyone know?

And nothing seems to change it. Again. Oh oh. The next epiphany time with difficult choices and self-administered heroic struggles coming up and maybe it would work out again for a couple of generations, or maybe it wouldn't this time around, like who promised that it always would, right?

Doesn't look like we could learn, does it?

[Mathieub]

This is democracy. There is a state with the stateman and there is the citizen. And they don't do nothing.

[myata]

On 10/6/2024 at 11:07 AM, Mathieub said:

This is democracy. There is a state with the stateman and there is the citizen.

Right. Since the times of Aristotle no one has figured it out: the politics oscillate between the ochlocracy, the mob rule; and the oligarchy, elites ruling (for) the pueblo. And the cycle goes on and on.

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, myata said:

Right. Since the times of Aristotle no one has figured it out: the politics oscillate between the ochlocracy, the mob rule; and the oligarchy, elites ruling (for) the pueblo. And the cycle goes on and on.

It does, but it also changes.

The Public Sphere governs the government.  And then social media arrived.

[myata]

18 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

The Public Sphere governs the government.  And then social media arrived.

The "delegation" was always the weak link. The technology changes, the weakness remains.

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, myata said:

The "delegation" was always the weak link. The technology changes, the weakness remains.

Depends. 

Every technology is a trade-off. I'm doing a lot of studying of the early Mesopotamia cultures. They had writing, and mathematics... They still had to develop religion and a ruling class even with that. 

Benjamin Franklin admired the Confederate framework of the five nations tribes and it was incorporated into the model of the United States, according to some theories.

[myata]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Benjamin Franklin admired the Confederate framework of the five nations tribes and it was incorporated into the model of the United States, according to some theories

But no framework can last forever, in the entropy world. And once the responsibility - with the privilege has been delegated, the message can take long to reach the tower. And the delivery, far from assured.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, myata said:

But no framework can last forever, in the entropy world. And once the responsibility - with the privilege has been delegated, the message can take long to reach the tower. And the delivery, far from assured.

Nicely done.  You are correct, but the system we have is open and presumably open to change as it has done over the centuries.  

No guarantees of success though.