Abortion, Choice, Responsibility

[Renegade]

Well, believe that a fetus is alive or not, it is the product of both the mother and the father. They both do have some claim to it I guess. I understand what your saying, but the mother did choose to get pregnant too right? The dad should be able to raise his kid and not have it killed by the mother if the mother has the same right. 9 months of carrying a kid is a big deal, 18 years of financial support and the lifelong responsibility is far greater though.

geoffery, let me give you another analogy which hopefully will reinforce the point which is trying to be made.

Let's say person 'A' needed a kidney transplant or he would die. Let's say person 'B' had two compatible functioning kidneys. Would you force person 'B' to submit to an operation to donate their kidney if they were unwilling to do so? Would you consider it murder if person 'A' died because person 'B' did not donate their kidney.

Sure both the mother and the father have a stake in the unborn fetus, however only the mother has a right to decide what to do with her body. If she decides that she doesn't want her body to be use as host, she has that right. Science has not advanced to the point where it can sustain the development of an extreme early term fetus outside the mother's womb. So regardless of what the father wishes for that fetus, once the mother decides to withold her body as a host for that fetus, that fetus will die.

[Renegade]

if murder is against the law then so should abortions

you can have lots of freedom but killing is not a freedom we should be allowed to have. Abortion is killing a baby, and if they legalize killing babies then why wouldn't they just leagilize killing and crimes. We can only have so much freedom without going too far. Without rules we'ld be scared to leave our door for the sake of being killed and not cared about. You have enough freedom to have sex then with sex take the responsibilities of the outcome -whether it be a baby or std-.

Since you are only 14 I'll cut you some slack. Abortion is more complex a question than murder, because it is about conflicting rights. In murder it is only the victim who has their rights to security violated. With abortion the fetus has rights for preservation, however those rigthts are superceded by the right of the woman to decide what she will do with her body. We live in a free society and we beleive that we cannot force a woman to host a pregnancy against her will even if the consequences are dire for the fetus. Further while it is clear that the fetus is life, it far from clear that the fetus is a 'human' while early term?

BTW, please stop with the oversize colour posts. We can read the normal size, b & w font just fine.

[Nocrap]

if murder is against the law then so should abortions

you can have lots of freedom but killing is not a freedom we should be allowed to have. Abortion is killing a baby, and if they legalize killing babies then why wouldn't they just leagilize killing and crimes. We can only have so much freedom without going too far. Without rules we'ld be scared to leave our door for the sake of being killed and not cared about. You have enough freedom to have sex then with sex take the responsibilities of the outcome -whether it be a baby or std-.

Apparently killing is legal. It's called WAR!

[margrace]

The ability to have an abortion was withheld from women for many years. In my opinion it was used as a punishment to women for having sex. Bringing an unwanted child into the world who is unloved and in some cases mistreated is a terrible thing to do.

Much as there are some good arguments on here for fathers rights I think that men who think like that are probably less than 1% of the male population. Most men, especially young men, think it is their God given right to lay any female they can. What is date rape?

I know we would like to believe otherwise but I would question how many men even think of a child when they are getting their sexual satisfaction. The Catholic Church was perhaps right when it advocated sex only for procreation.

I would never have had an abortion, but I will not deny the rights of women to have them. If men are so gungho to have rights to children why do we specifically have a law in Ontario garanshing the wages of dead beat dads. Remember Harris's Common Sense grabbing of the control of all monies being paid to mothers and then putting it into a bank account and forgetting to pass it on. What was that all about?

Women for too long have taken the complete care of children and I know there are men today who are just as good at raising children as women but they are still in the minority. Too often men cry that they are so hard done by but I have seen and heard too many who just use this as another way to control a woman.

[Nocrap]

My parents (and I would guess most parents) always taught me that with independance and freedom comes responsibility. The more freedom and independance we take on as childeren, commensurate with that comes responsibility. And with total freedom comes total responsibility.

But it's not that way with women and choice is it?

As it stands now, women have the ultimate choice when it comes to abortion, but don't bear ultimate legal and financial resposibility and consequence of their choice.

Let's say a woman has an unwanted pregnancy. The choice in having or not having the child is HERS alone. WHat if the man involved doesn't want the child? As it currently stands legally...Too bad - it's not his choice. But if she does have the baby, the man is legally responsible for child support.

In the spirit of what our parents teach us --with freedom comes responsibility-- wouldn't it make more sense to do this:

Women need to decide if they want full freedom and full responsibility. If they do and the man has no legal bearing on the choice, then as well the man should bear no legal responsibility (ie. child support).

Whereas if men were legally involved in the choice, then ultimately they too should bear the legal responsibility (ie. child care) of that choice.

Right now, women want their legal cake and eat it too. They have ultimate freedom of choice, but then download the legal & financial consequences of that choice onto men.

Comments?

I have never had an abortion and if forced with the option, I'm not sure that I could go through with it. However, that is my personal 'choice'. On the other hand, I take offense to your comment "They have ultimate freedom of choice, but then download the legal & financial consequences of that choice onto men". First off, it is a very tough decision and most women who opt to have an abortion, don't enter into it lightly. As for the legal and financial responsibilties for the child, we do not 'download' that, but SHARE it. I wonder how many men, if they were told that they would have to put their careers on hold, would agree to carry a child full term. Paternity can always be questioned (yes I know about the tests), but maternity never can, and ultimately the mother must always bear the responsibilty.

[Riverwind]

Well, believe that a fetus is alive or not, it is the product of both the mother and the father.

That is your personal belief and you are entitled to that just like you are entitled to believe in Jesus Christ or some other religion of your choosing. However, it is wrong to ask the state to force others to follow your religious beliefs.

The dad should be able to raise his kid and not have it killed by the mother if the mother has the same right. 9 months of carrying a kid is a big deal, 18 years of financial support and the lifelong responsibility is far greater though.

I said the father should not be automatically on the hook for an unexpected pregnacy since the mother can always give the child up for adoption. If the mother chooses to keep the child then that is her choice and has no right to expect a father to support a child. In other words, with freedom comes responsibility.

Well I actually think its murder in all cases, but since pretty much everyone else in the world does not believe so, I've taken the approach that its more pragmatic to my cause to support any and all methods of reducing the number of abortions needed or wanted.

Reducing abortions by providing support to mothers who are unsure of their ability to care for a child or helping them find a good family to adopt her child is a good thing to do. Seeking to create legal hurdles that would prevent a woman from getting a abortion once she has decided to make that choice is the same a passing a law to force everyone to attend church on sunday.

[Renegade]

Much as there are some good arguments on here for fathers rights I think that men who think like that are probably less than 1% of the male population. Most men, especially young men, think it is their God given right to lay any female they can. What is date rape?

I think you are quite wrong in the % of men who would fulfill their responsibilites if they were given a choice in their fatherhood.

In general, statistics indicate that between 85 to 91 percent of Canadian children covered either by private or court-ordered child-support agreements actually receive payments, the vast majority receiving regular support payments. And statistics also reveal the close association between the regularity of payment and the frequency of contact between fathers and their children.

Studies also show that many noncustodial fathers who do not pay child support simply can’t afford to. Some are unemployed or on sick leave. In fact, one of the best predictors of nonpayment is the unemployment rate. Higher incomes are associated with higher compliance rates, and lower incomes with lower rates. One study suggests that a father’s ability to pay, in addition to his willingness to pay, determines the extent to which he fulfills his child-support obligations.

Divorced Fathers

I know we would like to believe otherwise but I would question how many men even think of a child when they are getting their sexual satisfaction. The Catholic Church was perhaps right when it advocated sex only for procreation.

I think you can extend the question to women just as much as you can to men.

If men are so gungho to have rights to children why do we specifically have a law in Ontario garanshing the wages of dead beat dads.

No doubt in any group there will always be some who don't live up to their responsibilities. It would be unfair to characterize an entire group because of the actions of a few. Why do we have laws against child abuse? Is it because ALL parents abuse their children?

Remember Harris's Common Sense grabbing of the control of all monies being paid to mothers and then putting it into a bank account and forgetting to pass it on. What was that all about?

Do you have a link to any story or article describing this? As far as I remember Mike Harris' government passed a law trying to track down deadbeat dads.

Women for too long have taken the complete care of children and I know there are men today who are just as good at raising children as women but they are still in the minority. Too often men cry that they are so hard done by but I have seen and heard too many who just use this as another way to control a woman.

You may be just seeing one side. There are just as many women who use access or custody of the children as weapons against men.

[Black Dog]

You're just stating a fact of life. What I'm saying is that in our current legal environment, it is ONLY the man who need be careful and suffer financial repercussions of his actions. Second, even precautions cannot prevent all pregnacies. So you're suggesting men cease to have sex? As you said - it takes TWO to make a baby. Why is it that the man is the one upon whom the financial burden is placed, if he has no control over the abortion decision?

Unless you can point out where in the law it states a man is obligated to pay 100 per cent of all chld care expenses, I'm calling b.s. on this one.

In this situation, there's simply no black and white solution. No one should be forced to bear any undue burden as a result of choices someone else made. However, that also applies to the child, who is the innocent party in all this. The primary justification of child support is that it is in the best interests of the child and society as a whole to keep children out of destitution when possible, and child support payments are a reasonable way to do this.

[Drea]

My son's biological father....

First I got pregnant -- moved away, never asked him for a cent.

Then his next g/friend got pregant, he lived with her for a bit, got pregnant a second time. She then left him.

Then he had a young g/friend and once again, pregnant.

There he is with 4 kids with 3 different mothers. He pays child support for all of them (when I had to go on welfare, they MADE me go after child support, so I got the lowest possible -- $100 per month).

To the other mothers he pays $250-$300 per kid.

The $100 he sends me goes into an RESP for my son.

I'm one of the fortunate ones who doesn't need the money for day to day expenses.

The other moms stay at home looking after the kids, don't make alot of money.

My son, call him kid #1 (raised by a career mother) is a B honours student, has a paperroute, is an air cadet..

kid #2 (raised by a stay at home mom) has behaviour issues -- his father told me the other day (we are in contact, we are friends) that he has obssessive compulsive disorder, a weird fear of germs.

Kid #3 (raised by same stay at home mom) is a good little girl who loves her daddy.

Kid #4 (raised by the young stay at home mom) has been kicked out of kindergarten (he's 5) for violent behaviour.

Gee, I wonder why the child with the career mom turned out the best? According to some, I wasn't even there to raise him.

[JerrySeinfeld]

My son's biological father....

First I got pregnant -- moved away, never asked him for a cent.

Then his next g/friend got pregant, he lived with her for a bit, got pregnant a second time. She then left him.

Then he had a young g/friend and once again, pregnant.

There he is with 4 kids with 3 different mothers. He pays child support for all of them (when I had to go on welfare, they MADE me go after child support, so I got the lowest possible -- $100 per month).

To the other mothers he pays $250-$300 per kid.

The $100 he sends me goes into an RESP for my son.

I'm one of the fortunate ones who doesn't need the money for day to day expenses.

The other moms stay at home looking after the kids, don't make alot of money.

My son, call him kid #1 (raised by a career mother) is a B honours student, has a paperroute, is an air cadet..

kid #2 (raised by a stay at home mom) has behaviour issues -- his father told me the other day (we are in contact, we are friends) that he has obssessive compulsive disorder, a weird fear of germs.

Kid #3 (raised by same stay at home mom) is a good little girl who loves her daddy.

Kid #4 (raised by the young stay at home mom) has been kicked out of kindergarten (he's 5) for violent behaviour.

Gee, I wonder why the child with the career mom turned out the best? According to some, I wasn't even there to raise him.

good on ya, Drea - u'r a credit you mothers and women everywhere

[tapanga12]

if murder is against the law then so should abortions

you can have lots of freedom but killing is not a freedom we should be allowed to have. Abortion is killing a baby, and if they legalize killing babies then why wouldn't they just leagilize killing and crimes. We can only have so much freedom without going too far. Without rules we'ld be scared to leave our door for the sake of being killed and not cared about. You have enough freedom to have sex then with sex take the responsibilities of the outcome -whether it be a baby or std-.

Since you are only 14 I'll cut you some slack. Abortion is more complex a question than murder, because it is about conflicting rights. In murder it is only the victim who has their rights to security violated. With abortion the fetus has rights for preservation, however those rigthts are superceded by the right of the woman to decide what she will do with her body. We live in a free society and we beleive that we cannot force a woman to host a pregnancy against her will even if the consequences are dire for the fetus. Further while it is clear that the fetus is life, it far from clear that the fetus is a 'human' while early term?

BTW, please stop with the oversize colour posts. We can read the normal size, b & w font just fine.

how do you know im 14? also i don't need any slack im old enough top have my own opinions and they don't have to be the same as yours

Yes but a fetus turns into a baby so you are killing someones life before they even have a chance to live it. I believe abortion is horrible because if you have sex you should have to accept all the responsibilities with it.

o and by the way i don't care if you don't like my font cause i like it

[Black Dog]

Yes but a fetus turns into a baby so you are killing someones life before they even have a chance to live it. I believe abortion is horrible because if you have sex you should have to accept all the responsibilities with it.

When does that happen? At what point in pregnancy does Jesus sprinkle the embryo with fairy dust and -presto!- the fetus becomes a cute widdle baby?

As for accepting consequences, does that also mean we shouldn't treat STD's, because hey: you have sex, you pay the price. Ditto, I suppose, for smokers: hey, you smoked, the cancer's your problem. And so on and so forth.

[tapanga12]

Yes but a fetus turns into a baby so you are killing someones life before they even have a chance to live it. I believe abortion is horrible because if you have sex you should have to accept all the responsibilities with it.

When does that happen? At what point in pregnancy does Jesus sprinkle the embryo with fairy dust and -presto!- the fetus becomes a cute widdle baby?

As for accepting consequences, does that also mean we shouldn't treat STD's, because hey: you have sex, you pay the price. Ditto, I suppose, for smokers: hey, you smoked, the cancer's your problem. And so on and so forth.

umm not all smokers get cancer... and not all cancer patients smoke

[Renegade]

how do you know im 14?

Because I can read.

I am 14years old and i am not racist at all...

also i don't need any slack im old enough top have my own opinions and they don't have to be the same as yours

My comment wasn't directed to your opinions. Of course you are entitled to your own opinions regardless of who you agree with. My comment was directed to the fact that you posted an off-topic inflamatory post. The topic being discussed was whether men should have a say in the decision. The topic was NOT whether abortions were moral or not.

Yes but a fetus turns into a baby so you are killing someones life before they even have a chance to live it. I believe abortion is horrible because if you have sex you should have to accept all the responsibilities with it.

So is contraception wrong too because you are preventing someone from having a chance to live? Should vasectomies and hysterectomies be illegal as well as they deprive a potential life from being born?

Of course you have to accept the responsibilites of sex, but you have some measure of control on the outcome. By your view, adoptions should also be prohibited because the parents should have to live with the consequences of their actions.

o and by the way i don't care if you don't like my font cause i like it

Go wild with it then.

[Renegade]

umm not all smokers get cancer... and not all cancer patients smoke

So? And not all people who have sex get pregnant or get afflicted with STDs. What's the difference? Is your point that you don't know what caused the cancer so it ok to treat them?

[tapanga12]

how do you know im 14?

Because I can read.

I am 14years old and i am not racist at all...

also i don't need any slack im old enough top have my own opinions and they don't have to be the same as yours

My comment wasn't directed to your opinions. Of course you are entitled to your own opinions regardless of who you agree with. My comment was directed to the fact that you posted an off-topic inflamatory post. The topic being discussed was whether men should have a say in the decision. The topic was NOT whether abortions were moral or not.

Yes but a fetus turns into a baby so you are killing someones life before they even have a chance to live it. I believe abortion is horrible because if you have sex you should have to accept all the responsibilities with it.

So is contraception wrong too because you are preventing someone from having a chance to live? Should vasectomies and hysterectomies be illegal as well as they deprive a potential life from being born?

Of course you have to accept the responsibilites of sex, but you have some measure of control on the outcome. By your view, adoptions should also be prohibited because the parents should have to live with the consequences of their actions.

o and by the way i don't care if you don't like my font cause i like it

Go wild with it then.

well the whole main idea of the post is abortion,choice and responsibility and i think people who get pregnant should have to be responsible and have their kid/s. So technically im not off topic because my post was on abortion and that is the topic of this board.

[tapanga12]

how do you know im 14?

Because I can read.

I am 14years old and i am not racist at all...

also i don't need any slack im old enough top have my own opinions and they don't have to be the same as yours

My comment wasn't directed to your opinions. Of course you are entitled to your own opinions regardless of who you agree with. My comment was directed to the fact that you posted an off-topic inflamatory post. The topic being discussed was whether men should have a say in the decision. The topic was NOT whether abortions were moral or not.

Yes but a fetus turns into a baby so you are killing someones life before they even have a chance to live it. I believe abortion is horrible because if you have sex you should have to accept all the responsibilities with it.

So is contraception wrong too because you are preventing someone from having a chance to live? Should vasectomies and hysterectomies be illegal as well as they deprive a potential life from being born?

Of course you have to accept the responsibilites of sex, but you have some measure of control on the outcome. By your view, adoptions should also be prohibited because the parents should have to live with the consequences of their actions.

o and by the way i don't care if you don't like my font cause i like it

Go wild with it then.

contraception,vasectomies and hysterectomies don't kill something they prevent it theres a difference. With contraception, vasectomies and hysterectomies it all happens BEFORE you get pregnant.

[Renegade]

well the whole main idea of the post is abortion,choice and responsibility and i think people who get pregnant should have to be responsible and have their kid/s. So technically im not off topic because my post was on abortion and that is the topic of this board.

Did you even read and understand the first post by Jerry? If all you did was read the title, it would explain a lot.

[Renegade]

contraception,vasectomies and hysterectomies don't kill something they prevent it theres a difference. With contraception, vasectomies and hysterectomies it all happens BEFORE you get pregnant.

Yes all true. But your argument against abortion was that it prevented a baby from "having a chance to live". So if you destroy a fetus, and prevent it from becoming a baby, how is that conceputally different?

BTW, if you want to continue this discussion, I will happily do so in another thread. I am not willing to hijack Jerry's topic any further than has already been done.

[tapanga12]

contraception,vasectomies and hysterectomies don't kill something they prevent it theres a difference. With contraception, vasectomies and hysterectomies it all happens BEFORE you get pregnant.

Yes all true. But your argument against abortion was that it prevented a baby from "having a chance to live". So if you destroy a fetus, and prevent it from becoming a baby, how is that conceputally different?

BTW, if you want to continue this discussion, I will happily do so in another thread. I am not willing to hijack Jerry's topic any further than has already been done.

centraception prevents a fetus from starting, so when you use contraception then you don't start creating a a fetus which then later turns into a baby

[August1991]

You're just stating a fact of life. What I'm saying is that in our current legal environment, it is ONLY the man who need be careful and suffer financial repercussions of his actions. Second, even precautions cannot prevent all pregnacies. So you're suggesting men cease to have sex? As you said - it takes TWO to make a baby. Why is it that the man is the one upon whom the financial burden is placed, if he has no control over the abortion decision?

Unless you can point out where in the law it states a man is obligated to pay 100 per cent of all chld care expenses, I'm calling b.s. on this one.

Jerry, do you have an answer? BD's question seems critical to the reason you started the thread.

[Renegade]

You're just stating a fact of life. What I'm saying is that in our current legal environment, it is ONLY the man who need be careful and suffer financial repercussions of his actions. Second, even precautions cannot prevent all pregnacies. So you're suggesting men cease to have sex? As you said - it takes TWO to make a baby. Why is it that the man is the one upon whom the financial burden is placed, if he has no control over the abortion decision?

Unless you can point out where in the law it states a man is obligated to pay 100 per cent of all chld care expenses, I'm calling b.s. on this one.

The law doesn't base the support payments upon the actual cost of child care or the cost of raising the child. The child-support payments are based soley upon the income of the non-custodial parent. Even the income of the non-custodial parent is not considerd in determining the support payment. So that means in cases of a man (assuming he is the non-custodial parent) having low income, he will pay less than the true child-rearing cost. In the case of a high-income man, he will pay considerably more than the normal child-rearing cost.

[Black Dog]

umm not all smokers get cancer... and not all cancer patients smoke

Way to miss th epoint, which is, it's interesting that the only time we want to make people pay for their choices is when it comes to unwanted pregnancy.

centraception prevents a fetus from starting, so when you use contraception then you don't start creating a a fetus which then later turns into a baby

Then why is it that the people most oppossed to abortion are opossed to contracetive measures like the "morning after pill"?

[Drea]

good on ya, Drea - u'r a credit you mothers and women everywhere

Thanks Jerry.

But then you say:

You're just stating a fact of life. What I'm saying is that in our current legal environment, it is ONLY the man who need be careful and suffer financial repercussions of his actions. Second, even precautions cannot prevent all pregnacies. So you're suggesting men cease to have sex? As you said - it takes TWO to make a baby. Why is it that the man is the one upon whom the financial burden is placed, if he has no control over the abortion decision?

The woman has the bulk of the responsibility, financial and emotional. The man certainly does not pay 50% of the real cost of raising a child. My ex pays $350 for one of his kids. Does this mean it costs only $700 a month to raise the child? Apparently daycare alone costs $750 per month. Double what my ex pays.

LOL

When my ex was with the young one (and he already had the first 3 kids) I said "Watch out -- she's young, she's gonna want a baby". "oh no, she's not like that, she's on the pill" he said.

They split up and sure enough, she was pregnant.

In my case -- the condom fell off -- they do that (fall off) you know.

No one's fault -- not my fault, not his fault.

Every now and then he gets really po'd about having to pay me the $100, but then later apologizes when he thinks about the fact that I had the judge lower his support payments.

BTW, he got a vasectomy

[JerrySeinfeld]

good on ya, Drea - u'r a credit you mothers and women everywhere

Thanks Jerry.

But then you say:

You're just stating a fact of life. What I'm saying is that in our current legal environment, it is ONLY the man who need be careful and suffer financial repercussions of his actions. Second, even precautions cannot prevent all pregnacies. So you're suggesting men cease to have sex? As you said - it takes TWO to make a baby. Why is it that the man is the one upon whom the financial burden is placed, if he has no control over the abortion decision?

The woman has the bulk of the responsibility, financial and emotional. The man certainly does not pay 50% of the real cost of raising a child. My ex pays $350 for one of his kids. Does this mean it costs only $700 a month to raise the child? Apparently daycare alone costs $750 per month. Double what my ex pays.

LOL

When my ex was with the young one (and he already had the first 3 kids) I said "Watch out -- she's young, she's gonna want a baby". "oh no, she's not like that, she's on the pill" he said.

They split up and sure enough, she was pregnant.

In my case -- the condom fell off -- they do that (fall off) you know.

No one's fault -- not my fault, not his fault.

Every now and then he gets really po'd about having to pay me the $100, but then later apologizes when he thinks about the fact that I had the judge lower his support payments.

BTW, he got a vasectomy

That's one anectdote. I know a very good friend of mine who pays $2000/month in child support (two kids) to an ex wife who drives a mercedes (remarried). No lie.

Perhaps I should tweak my position: why should me have ANY obligation for a child they didn't want or never see.