Citizens and politicians of conscience can restore values and meaning to democratic politics

[myata]

Even short of a drastic overhaul of the formal framework of the political system that is outdated and not well adjusted anymore to the modern reality, it is possible.

It would take a conscious, deliberate and persistent effort to restore meaningful political discourse and keep it that way. None of this is partisan: any political group, party, movement etc that value freedom, democracy and the Constitution can and should join in this process. And they should all stand together, on the principles when authoritarian challenges based on fearmongering and lies emerge. It already happened, and it will happen again and again. Democracy has to be aware, and be able to defend itself.

At every political cycle and through it the party has to affirm its commitment to the democracy; freedoms and the Constitution. Democracy has to be kept and maintained, it's not an eternal miracle machine.

The principle: democratic political system, parties exist for the country and its citizens; there are no other reasons or causes for them to be there. Power is not a valid cause for a party in democratic politics; rule is not the end that justifies all means. Lying is not accepted as an instrument and mean in democratic politics and is condemned outright by all participants regardless of ideological stripe.

It follows that the candidates and representatives are the best for the country; it is the main factor of merit and it has to be reaffirmed at every political cycle and throughout it.

It follows that the nomination process is nothing like parading the default choice of the system, but a genuine and earnest call for the best. Through away, just flush the theatrics. No locked in votes, it was three centuries ago. No one-way rallies. It's a country-wide conversation about the problems and priorities of the country. Townhalls, interactive discussions, questions that has to be answered, meaningful and respectful debates. Citizens of all stripes can be invited to participate - conversation; questions; solutions and answers is the key, not drumming preset messages and partisan hostility.

Candidates are nominated following the conversation based on their merit. Whole party can vote, but on the result of the conversation and not the other way around: it just doesn't make any rational sense.

The conversation, involvement of the citizens continues throughout the political cycle. Important issues addressed in country-wide non-partisan discussions. Referendums and plebiscites on important issues, binding or informative become regular.

Eventually, some form of proportional representation can be introduced: it does help to avoid the pitfalls of partisanship, the zero-sum game of the binary system.

The bottom line is, to stay alive, avoid falling into self-annihilation via unrestrained partisanship, democracy needs to involve the citizens, all the time, not only the show time. This is work, not a promise or guarantee. Let's see if we're up to it still.

[Michael Hardner]

Hear hear.  Identity politics and its companion (advertising) have reduced everything to us vs them.

People need to be principled and think in terms of ideas and empirical tests on the policies that result from them.

[Nationalist]

Principals like...

Leaving an addled mind in charge?

Defunding the police?

Telling kids cross-dressing is OK?

Opening the border to tens of millions?

Turning the justice system on your own people?

Ya know...I'd take a famous ass-hole and adulterer, over the sort of principals the Democrats have displayed, any day of the week.

[myata]

This is exactly why it needs to be done. Otherwise the extreme partisanship and deadbrains will reduce it to the absolute chaos without rules or principles because it's the only environment they can thrive int.

Edited July 27, 2024 by myata

[Michael Hardner]

47 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Principals like...

Leaving an addled mind in charge?

Defunding the police?

Telling kids cross-dressing is OK?

Opening the border to tens of millions?

Turning the justice system on your own people?

Ya know...I'd take a famous ass-hole and adulterer, over the sort of principals the Democrats have displayed, any day of the week.

Principles are higher order concepts.

For example, defunding the police might be a discussion centered around the principles of good governance of Public services, respect for public order, obligations of the community towards the mentally ill. 

Like that.

[Nationalist]

10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Principles are higher order concepts.

For example, defunding the police might be a discussion centered around the principles of good governance of Public services, respect for public order, obligations of the community towards the mentally ill. 

Like that.

So...Libbies have no real principals then.

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, Nationalist said:

So...Libbies have no real principals then.

The thread is about working across political boundaries. If you think liberals are animals who are incapable of being civilized, then just advocate for their imprisonment or death I guess

[myata]

Authoritarians and totalitarians always seek, and try to create social environment of fear; uncertainty; chaos and hatred because it's the only one they could thrive in. We would have to be blind and brain dead to not see and understand what is happening right in front of our eyes.

[Nationalist]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

The thread is about working across political boundaries. If you think liberals are animals who are incapable of being civilized, then just advocate for their imprisonment or death I guess

Libbies have already shown their "principals"...their "morality"...is not static. They justify their lack of "principles" by claiming they must protect "Democracy". Only this way can they abuse power. 

Attack free speech.

Attack law and order.

Attack sovereignty.

Attack the economy.

So mike...what "principles"?

[Nationalist]

31 minutes ago, myata said:

Authoritarians and totalitarians always seek, and try to create social environment of fear; uncertainty; chaos and hatred because it's the only one they could thrive in. We would have to be blind and brain dead to not see and understand what is happening right in front of our eyes.

Agreed. So now...why are the Libbies acting like such totalitarians? It's like they're executing Stalin's playbook.

[User]

3 hours ago, myata said:

It would take a conscious, deliberate and persistent effort to restore meaningful political discourse and keep it that way.

So, why don't you start with yourself here?

3 hours ago, myata said:

Let's see if we're up to it still.

OK, lets see if you can start here. 

[Michael Hardner]

13 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Libbies have already shown their "principals"...their "morality"...is not static. They justify their lack of "principles" by claiming they must protect "Democracy". Only this way can they abuse power. 

Attack free speech.

Attack law and order.

Attack sovereignty.

Attack the economy.

So mike...what "principles"?

Liberalism itself is an ideology that you agree with, I expect. Small l liberalism 

I'm not going to make generalizations about people based on politics, that goes nowhere. 

But you pretty clearly dislike them or at least think they're detrimental to society. Am I right?

 

Edited July 27, 2024 by Michael Hardner

[Nationalist]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

Liberalism itself is an ideology that you agree with, I expect. Small l liberalism 

I'm not going to make generalizations about people based on politics, that goes nowhere. 

But you pretty clearly dislike them or at least think they're detrimental to society. Am I right?

 

You are correct...and the reign of Brandon and Pixie-Dust exemplify that perfectly.

You wanna call us names and lie about our cause constantly? Ok. But know that what you dish out will be revisited on you ten fold.

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

 But know that what you dish out will be revisited on you ten fold.

Sounds like war to me. Which is not politics. I don't think you're interested in talking with these people..

[Nationalist]

13 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Sounds like war to me. Which is not politics. I don't think you're interested in talking with these people..

You're right. I'm not anymore. Frankly I believe most Libbie leaders and much of the media belong in jail.

I've told you this several times Mike...the Libbies started this war...but we will finish it.!

You don't like that prospect? Grow some principals then and stop lying about us. If you ever decide to call a truce...we'll be willing to talk.

Peacefully and rationally and truthfully. 

Edited July 27, 2024 by Nationalist

[myata]

No meaningful conversation is possible with deadbrains. That type of "intelligence" uses alternative logic and reasoning.

Normal, human conversation:

We consider all options of an answer/solution and rule out those that we find unacceptable or unfeasible based on a) shared values; b) logic and reason c) objective facts and evidence.

Alien conversation:

Begin with preformed conclusion. Throw away anything that contradicts it, including facts, experience, knowledge objective reality itself. Exaggerate and inflate anything that even remotely relates to it 1000x to 1,000,000x. Proclaim it "common knowledge" and shut your sensory organs and brain.

There's just no connection between the two domains and cannot be. There isn't a common language, any shared concepts. So no meaningful conversation possible. If there's a clear case of a zero sum problem, it cannot be any clearer. For a meaningful dialog one has to be able to think and admit objective reality. The proof.

Edited July 27, 2024 by myata

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

You're right. I'm not anymore. Frankly I believe most Libbie leaders and much of the media belong in jail.

I've told you this several times Mike...the Libbies started this war...but we will finish it.!

You don't like that prospect? Grow some principals then and stop lying about us. If you ever decide to call a truce...we'll be willing to talk.

Peacefully and rationally.

Well there you are. 

I think it's a metaphor for war, not an actual War. That's why I still talk to people whose politics is vastly different from mine. 

But you are you. 

I don't think anything I say would change your mind about politics, my brand of conservatism, or anything. I could only guess as to why. 

 

[Nationalist]

3 minutes ago, myata said:

No meaningful conversation is possible with deadbrains ohoh. That type of "intelligence" uses alternative reasoning.

Normal, human conversation:

We consider all options of an answer/solution and rule out those that we find unacceptable or unfeasible based on a) common views; b) logic and reason c) objective facts and evidence.

Alien conversation:

Begin with preformed conclusion. Throw away anything that contradicts it, including facts, experience, knowledge objective reality itself. Exaggerate and inflate anything that even remotely relates to it 1000x to 1,000,000 time. Proclaim it "common knowledge" and shut your sensory organs and brain.

There's just no connection between the two domains and cannot be. There isn't a common language, any shared concepts. So no meaningful conversation possible. If there's a clear case of a zero sum problem, it cannot be any clearer. For a meaningful dialog one has to be able to think and admit objective reality. The proof.

As for you...mush-mouth...you are one of those whom I honestly hope get exactly what you deserve.

You make disgusting accusations and useless cowards like you need to be locked up in a rubber room.!

[Nationalist]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well there you are. 

I think it's a metaphor for war, not an actual War. That's why I still talk to people whose politics is vastly different from mine. 

But you are you. 

I don't think anything I say would change your mind about politics, my brand of conservatism, or anything. I could only guess as to why. 

 

You don't need to guess Mike. I'll tell you outright.

When faced with hatred and lies, people with "principles" will fight back.

This "new normal" is the most destructive idea north America and Europe have been poisoned by for decades.

Open the border to millions and make excuses when these illegals rape, kill and steal?

Don't start wars you can't win Mike.

[CouchPotato]

I kind of see the point from both sides here.

Politics has become more childish. The rhetoric from people on both sides in discussion boards like this one has become more childish. It's not hard to imagine that political debates will soon just be people saying "You mad bro?". As a conservative, I think we should stay out of this as much as possible. Let people on the other side sound like the youtube comments section.

But I don't think taking the high road always works. People on the conservative side of the aisle were labelled racists for years. In 2012, Biden told a black audience that Romney would "put y'all back in chains." Paul Ryan was going to "push grandma off a cliff." The response to this was principled and calm. Romney and Ryan stayed focused on things like their ideas and criticizing their opponents' ideas. But it didn't calm this kind of rhetoric down. Obama took a personal shot at Romney in a debate because he has a lot of money. The media praised it as being brilliant. When Trump says that if Biden wins re-election the auto industry will face a bloodbath. Democrats say Trump is threatening an actual bloodbath if Biden wins.

When it comes to the interwebs and common people discussing politics, both sides can say extreme stuff. But as far as the actual politicians go, there is no doubt which side has been more extreme in demonizing the other side.

Sometimes people only learn when they have to face consequences. They need a bit of their own medicine. Conservatives had no choice but to become more confrontational. You can't always sit on the sidelines and call yourself principled. Sometimes you have to make a stand for something.

Edited July 27, 2024 by CouchPotato

[myata]

And one more time: for a meaningful dialogue, one has to be able to think and admit objective reality.

No meaningful conversation is possible otherwise. It just isn't possible, physically.

[CouchPotato]

4 minutes ago, myata said:

And one more time: for a meaningful dialogue, one has to be able to think and admit objective reality.

No meaningful conversation is possible otherwise. It just isn't possible, physically.

You know, you say you want meaningful dialogue while in other threads you are insinuating politicians you don't like are fascists as well as the people who support them. Objectivity is not your strong suit.

[myata]

2 minutes ago, CouchPotato said:

Sometimes people only learn when they have to face consequences. They need a bit of their own medicine. Conservatives had no choice but to become more confrontational. You can't always sit on the sidelines and call yourself principled. Sometimes you have to make a stand for something.

It's very clear that binary political systems engender, encourage and promote partisanship. It's a no brainer, really: easier to hammer the arch-nemesis on the head than talk and more importantly, deliver tangible and practical solutions and results. It's cheaper and the return can be higher, a natural incentive. And intelligent entities always take cues from their environment and develop in the most favorable direction, lowest in maximum out.

Where I find it less plausible is that one side is a victim and the other, the villain. This looks like just another round of division already ingrained in the thought patterns. If I'm doing something wrong and that's quite obvious, impossible to avoid objectively then it cannot be on me, not I who's responsible for my acts and their consequences. That it, another round down the bottom-bound spiral.

[CouchPotato]

Just now, myata said:

Where I find it less plausible is that one side is a victim and the other, the villain.

I don't find this very credible from you, because you seem to find it very plausible when talking about Trump and Trump voters. You are incredibly dramatic about it.

[myata]

6 minutes ago, CouchPotato said:

Objectivity is not your strong suit.

No: automatic reflection may work in JK-argumentation but hardly in a meaningful discussion of serious issues. When someone praises totalitarian and fascist aggressor thugs; does it repeatedly as a pattern; it's not any "insinuation" but an objective fact, the reality. There's nothing wrong with using objective facts in argumentation, even those you may not like; they are still facts a part of reality. And if you cannot admit facts of objective reality, it couldn't be anybody else's problem but yours. You cannot separate your wishes from facts? That's just to bad, because facts remain facts and the reality isn't obliged to follow your wishes.

That's it. Simple. Admit facts and begin using reason or no meaningful conversation is a) possible and b) makes sense. Simple.

Edited July 27, 2024 by myata