Scheherazade

[August1991]

There are many threads about Muslims, but all the discussions seem to concern men.

All the videos about Muslim protests of Danish cartoons, in London or elsewhere, show men. I have seen no Muslim women (none) protesting anywhere, whether in the UK, Pakistan or Syria. Why?

What do Islamic women think about these controversies?

Are there any female Imams?

Fifty percent of the people in Saudia Arabia are presumably women. What do they think?

We all know of Omar Sharif. Have we ever heard of an Arab woman, a Hollywood star? Why not?

[scribblet]

There are many threads about Muslims, but all the discussions seem to concern men.

All the videos about Muslim protests of Danish cartoons, in London or elsewhere, show men. I have seen no Muslim women (none) protesting anywhere, whether in the UK, Pakistan or Syria. Why?

What do Islamic women think about these controversies?

Are there any female Imams?

Fifty percent of the people in Saudia Arabia are presumably women. What do they think?

We all know of Omar Sharif. Have we ever heard of an Arab woman, a Hollywood star? Why not?

I have seen video of Muslim women protesting, dressed in the full Burkas. When I do, I often wonder how much they really know about an issue, I have a feeling that many of them (maybe not in Jordan for instance) are only there because they are told to be there. How much are these women allowed to read or know outside of what the men want them to know?

Havn't done any research, but I doubt that Muslim women would be allowed to be in movies, well at least not without male chaperones.

[Argus]

There are many threads about Muslims, but all the discussions seem to concern men.

All the videos about Muslim protests of Danish cartoons, in London or elsewhere, show men. I have seen no Muslim women (none) protesting anywhere, whether in the UK, Pakistan or Syria. Why?

What do Islamic women think about these controversies?

Are there any female Imams?

Fifty percent of the people in Saudia Arabia are presumably women. What do they think?

We all know of Omar Sharif. Have we ever heard of an Arab woman, a Hollywood star? Why not?

Many Muslim women can't read or write. In fact, the more severe Muslims believe it is wrong to educate women at all. The Taliban banned girls from schools. No, there are no female imams or prayer leaders. Hell, the Saudis won't even let them drive cars.

[geoffrey]

There are many threads about Muslims, but all the discussions seem to concern men.

All the videos about Muslim protests of Danish cartoons, in London or elsewhere, show men. I have seen no Muslim women (none) protesting anywhere, whether in the UK, Pakistan or Syria. Why?

What do Islamic women think about these controversies?

Are there any female Imams?

Fifty percent of the people in Saudia Arabia are presumably women. What do they think?

We all know of Omar Sharif. Have we ever heard of an Arab woman, a Hollywood star? Why not?

Many Muslim women can't read or write. In fact, the more severe Muslims believe it is wrong to educate women at all. The Taliban banned girls from schools. No, there are no female imams or prayer leaders. Hell, the Saudis won't even let them drive cars.

Any liberation of most of these Muslim countries would free at the very least around 50% of the population from brutal mistreatment and substandard rights.

Apparently though, a majority of Canadians no longer agrees with our liberation of the Afghan women. Canadian's simply don't care past their happy feelings of being 'world leaders' (ya right, like anyone cares about us anymore) and the cost of helping out those oppressed and less advantaged than us. Apathy and ignorance would be defining qualities of at least half of the Canadian population.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060224/wl_ca...wN5bnN1YmNhdA--

[margrace]

There are many threads about Muslims, but all the discussions seem to concern men.

All the videos about Muslim protests of Danish cartoons, in London or elsewhere, show men. I have seen no Muslim women (none) protesting anywhere, whether in the UK, Pakistan or Syria. Why?

What do Islamic women think about these controversies?

Are there any female Imams?

Fifty percent of the people in Saudia Arabia are presumably women. What do they think?

We all know of Omar Sharif. Have we ever heard of an Arab woman, a Hollywood star? Why not?

Many Muslim women can't read or write. In fact, the more severe Muslims believe it is wrong to educate women at all. The Taliban banned girls from schools. No, there are no female imams or prayer leaders. Hell, the Saudis won't even let them drive cars.

Any liberation of most of these Muslim countries would free at the very least around 50% of the population from brutal mistreatment and substandard rights.

Apparently though, a majority of Canadians no longer agrees with our liberation of the Afghan women. Canadian's simply don't care past their happy feelings of being 'world leaders' (ya right, like anyone cares about us anymore) and the cost of helping out those oppressed and less advantaged than us. Apathy and ignorance would be defining qualities of at least half of the Canadian population.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060224/wl_ca...wN5bnN1YmNhdA--

In the 1860's a civil war was fought in the US, supposedly to free the slaves. For the next 100 years these same slaved were pursecuted. Before the Talaban took over in Afghanistan the Afghan women had a lot of freesom, there was mass pursecution when the Men too back their country form these women and many were left to starve to death. This was used as part of the excuse to attack Afghan.

The women in the Moslim world are no better than the Slaves of the US, will it take another 100 years to promote freedom given the attitudes of supposedly enlightened countries such as Canada.

[scribblet]

There are many threads about Muslims, but all the discussions seem to concern men.

All the videos about Muslim protests of Danish cartoons, in London or elsewhere, show men. I have seen no Muslim women (none) protesting anywhere, whether in the UK, Pakistan or Syria. Why?

What do Islamic women think about these controversies?

Are there any female Imams?

Fifty percent of the people in Saudia Arabia are presumably women. What do they think?

We all know of Omar Sharif. Have we ever heard of an Arab woman, a Hollywood star? Why not?

Many Muslim women can't read or write. In fact, the more severe Muslims believe it is wrong to educate women at all. The Taliban banned girls from schools. No, there are no female imams or prayer leaders. Hell, the Saudis won't even let them drive cars.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060224/wl_ca...wN5bnN1YmNhdA--

In the 1860's a civil war was fought in the US, supposedly to free the slaves. For the next 100 years these same slaved were pursecuted. Before the Talaban took over in Afghanistan the Afghan women had a lot of freesom, there was mass pursecution when the Men too back their country form these women and many were left to starve to death. This was used as part of the excuse to attack Afghan.

The women in the Moslim world are no better than the Slaves of the US, will it take another 100 years to promote freedom given the attitudes of supposedly enlightened countries such as Canada.

Could you explain that and what you mean by "attitudes of supposedly enlightened countries such as Canada." I always thought Canada was one of the more 'enlightened countries', but Canadian sensibilities won't allow us to send the military anywhere to free women, or anyone else. We are only supposed to be peacekeepers, we don't go into any country to liberate anyone, so can you please clarify your statement. Are you saying that Canada should take a firmer stand and send in troops to liberate Muslim women?

[RB]

There are many threads about Muslims, but all the discussions seem to concern men.

All the videos about Muslim protests of Danish cartoons, in London or elsewhere, show men. I have seen no Muslim women (none) protesting anywhere, whether in the UK, Pakistan or Syria. Why?

What do Islamic women think about these controversies?

Are there any female Imams?

Fifty percent of the people in Saudia Arabia are presumably women. What do they think?

We all know of Omar Sharif. Have we ever heard of an Arab woman, a Hollywood star? Why not?

I think you don't hear much from Muslim women because of a cultural reason, not for religious reasons

plus we would like to encourage legislation for equal this and that, but still, women experience their struggles

how many plays are written by women = 5%, 20%, imagine now how many of those are Muslim women, some profession are still not considered a choice by the Muslim women, it is just not proper

Same with Hollywood, I not sure the Muslim culture is ready for the those kinds of free liberties practiced in the Hollywood

[geoffrey]

In the 1860's a civil war was fought in the US, supposedly to free the slaves. For the next 100 years these same slaved were pursecuted. Before the Talaban took over in Afghanistan the Afghan women had a lot of freesom, there was mass pursecution when the Men too back their country form these women and many were left to starve to death. This was used as part of the excuse to attack Afghan.

The women in the Moslim world are no better than the Slaves of the US, will it take another 100 years to promote freedom given the attitudes of supposedly enlightened countries such as Canada.

So we should just accept that women need to be oppresed for another 100 years and let them be?

The difference is that in the US (and the whole world at the time), it was political and economic concerns that created slavery. In these Muslim countries, it is religion. Very dangerous.

Could you explain that and what you mean by "attitudes of supposedly enlightened countries such as Canada." I always thought Canada was one of the more 'enlightened countries', but Canadian sensibilities won't allow us to send the military anywhere to free women, or anyone else. We are only supposed to be peacekeepers, we don't go into any country to liberate anyone, so can you please clarify your statement. Are you saying that Canada should take a firmer stand and send in troops to liberate Muslim women?

We should send our military to assist those oppresed and less advantaged then outselves. I can't believe anyone is ok with people being denied human rights, food and basic dignity under oppressive regimes. Instead of speaking about it, we should do something about it.

[scribblet]

To Margrace, just asking again in case you missed it.,

Could you explain that and what you mean by "attitudes of supposedly enlightened countries such as Canada." I always thought Canada was one of the more 'enlightened countries', but Canadian sensibilities won't allow us to send the military anywhere to free women, or anyone else. We are only supposed to be peacekeepers, we don't go into any country to liberate anyone, so can you please clarify your statement. Are you saying that Canada should take a firmer stand and send in troops to liberate Muslim women?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

We all know of Omar Sharif. Have we ever heard of an Arab woman, a Hollywood star? Why not?

Omar Sharif indeed. What of Bollywood? The target audience of America's Hollywood isn't Muslim women, why would they glorify one? Hell, in Mel Gibson's first movie, Mad Max, they dubbed out the Aussie accents because they didn't think it sounded 'cool (or 'tough') enough' to sell in the US.

Lots of inroads are being made by Muslim women, our 'western media' just doesn't report them.

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/arti...hp?storyid=1690

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/13/news/profile.php

"I like competition in everything," the 28-year-old Seddigh says after parking the car and going for tiramisu in a café on a posh street of north Tehran. "I have to move whatever is moveable in the world."

A woman's opinion...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/725...7F7DE5D2734.htm

[margrace]

To Margrace, just asking again in case you missed it.,

Could you explain that and what you mean by "attitudes of supposedly enlightened countries such as Canada." I always thought Canada was one of the more 'enlightened countries', but Canadian sensibilities won't allow us to send the military anywhere to free women, or anyone else. We are only supposed to be peacekeepers, we don't go into any country to liberate anyone, so can you please clarify your statement. Are you saying that Canada should take a firmer stand and send in troops to liberate Muslim women?

Easy to see that you never had to fight for "pay eqity" for your staff. They still threaten one in Canada for standing up for their rights especially women.

[betsy]

To Margrace, just asking again in case you missed it.,

Could you explain that and what you mean by "attitudes of supposedly enlightened countries such as Canada." I always thought Canada was one of the more 'enlightened countries', but Canadian sensibilities won't allow us to send the military anywhere to free women, or anyone else. We are only supposed to be peacekeepers, we don't go into any country to liberate anyone, so can you please clarify your statement. Are you saying that Canada should take a firmer stand and send in troops to liberate Muslim women?

Easy to see that you never had to fight for "pay eqity" for your staff. They still threaten one in Canada for standing up for their rights especially women.

Can you give a specific case or example? I am curious and also confused about what you're referring to.

[Durgan]

Here is one of those Muslim Women.

Durgan.

http://duxedlet.notlong.com

We were brought up to hate - and we do

By Nonie Darwish

(Filed: 12/02/2006)

A few highlights

I was born and raised as a Muslim in Cairo, Egypt and in the Gaza Strip.

In school in Gaza, I learned hate, vengeance and retaliation. Peace was never an option, as it was considered a sign of defeat and weakness. At school we sang songs with verses calling Jews "dogs" (in Arab culture, dogs are considered unclean).

Criticism and questioning were forbidden.

[scribblet]

To Margrace, just asking again in case you missed it.,

Could you explain that and what you mean by "attitudes of supposedly enlightened countries such as Canada." I always thought Canada was one of the more 'enlightened countries', but Canadian sensibilities won't allow us to send the military anywhere to free women, or anyone else. We are only supposed to be peacekeepers, we don't go into any country to liberate anyone, so can you please clarify your statement. Are you saying that Canada should take a firmer stand and send in troops to liberate Muslim women?

Easy to see that you never had to fight for "pay eqity" for your staff. They still threaten one in Canada for standing up for their rights especially women.

Then you need new glasses, because I was heavily involved in pay equity and the process and have never been threatened. I'm still not clear on your response, I assume, but correct me if I'm wrong, that you are trying to compare the situation of Muslim women to that of Canadian women in general its not clear.

Pay equity is a well meaning attempt to equalize wages by comparing apples to oranges & who would object for equal pay for equal work, but really, think about beauocrats assessing different jobs for their "value" by weighing skill, effort, responsibility and working conditions - how objective is that - its not, -it can't be done. Pay equity is basically a kind of wage control since it takes wages out of the marketplace and turns them over to the arbitrary attention of government workers & their politically appointed tribunals. What they should be doing is comparing wages on a job to job basis.

The wage gap is closing as today's women are better educated, choose more skilled positions, have children later, or not at all in order to get ahead, systemic discrimination is no longer an issue for the most part.

The fairer way is to make sure that women are paid equally is to guarrantee equal access to education, skills training & job opportunities. Canada is no Afghanistan or Iraq.

[margrace]

To Margrace, just asking again in case you missed it.,

Could you explain that and what you mean by "attitudes of supposedly enlightened countries such as Canada." I always thought Canada was one of the more 'enlightened countries', but Canadian sensibilities won't allow us to send the military anywhere to free women, or anyone else. We are only supposed to be peacekeepers, we don't go into any country to liberate anyone, so can you please clarify your statement. Are you saying that Canada should take a firmer stand and send in troops to liberate Muslim women?

Easy to see that you never had to fight for "pay eqity" for your staff. They still threaten one in Canada for standing up for their rights especially women.

Then you need new glasses, because I was heavily involved in pay equity and the process and have never been threatened. I'm still not clear on your response, I assume, but correct me if I'm wrong, that you are trying to compare the situation of Muslim women to that of Canadian women in general its not clear.

Pay equity is a well meaning attempt to equalize wages by comparing apples to oranges & who would object for equal pay for equal work, but really, think about beauocrats assessing different jobs for their "value" by weighing skill, effort, responsibility and working conditions - how objective is that - its not, -it can't be done. Pay equity is basically a kind of wage control since it takes wages out of the marketplace and turns them over to the arbitrary attention of government workers & their politically appointed tribunals. What they should be doing is comparing wages on a job to job basis.

The wage gap is closing as today's women are better educated, choose more skilled positions, have children later, or not at all in order to get ahead, systemic discrimination is no longer an issue for the most part.

The fairer way is to make sure that women are paid equally is to guarrantee equal access to education, skills training & job opportunities. Canada is no Afghanistan or Iraq.

Ah so I suspected, you were heavily involved in pay equity, Ha Ha. I heard those arguments, you were against it obviously. You were not in a small town where the good old boys gave the plum jobs to their friends and then made nasty comments to because well educated clerks were expected to work for minimum wage and were told that women should not be working anyway and they should be glad to have a job. You had not worked and improved yourself and were told that you were only worth minimum wage.

You did not see your staff fired illegaly and saw them forced to accept it because family worked in the community and would be punished if they said anything.

People like you are what I am talking about, you have no idea of what some women are up against in this country and it never changes.

[betsy]

To Margrace, just asking again in case you missed it.,

Could you explain that and what you mean by "attitudes of supposedly enlightened countries such as Canada." I always thought Canada was one of the more 'enlightened countries', but Canadian sensibilities won't allow us to send the military anywhere to free women, or anyone else. We are only supposed to be peacekeepers, we don't go into any country to liberate anyone, so can you please clarify your statement. Are you saying that Canada should take a firmer stand and send in troops to liberate Muslim women?

Easy to see that you never had to fight for "pay eqity" for your staff. They still threaten one in Canada for standing up for their rights especially women.

Then you need new glasses, because I was heavily involved in pay equity and the process and have never been threatened. I'm still not clear on your response, I assume, but correct me if I'm wrong, that you are trying to compare the situation of Muslim women to that of Canadian women in general its not clear.

Pay equity is a well meaning attempt to equalize wages by comparing apples to oranges & who would object for equal pay for equal work, but really, think about beauocrats assessing different jobs for their "value" by weighing skill, effort, responsibility and working conditions - how objective is that - its not, -it can't be done. Pay equity is basically a kind of wage control since it takes wages out of the marketplace and turns them over to the arbitrary attention of government workers & their politically appointed tribunals. What they should be doing is comparing wages on a job to job basis.

The wage gap is closing as today's women are better educated, choose more skilled positions, have children later, or not at all in order to get ahead, systemic discrimination is no longer an issue for the most part.

The fairer way is to make sure that women are paid equally is to guarrantee equal access to education, skills training & job opportunities. Canada is no Afghanistan or Iraq.

Ah so I suspected, you were heavily involved in pay equity, Ha Ha. I heard those arguments, you were against it obviously. You were not in a small town where the good old boys gave the plum jobs to their friends and then made nasty comments to because well educated clerks were expected to work for minimum wage and were told that women should not be working anyway and they should be glad to have a job. You had not worked and improved yourself and were told that you were only worth minimum wage.

You did not see your staff fired illegaly and saw them forced to accept it because family worked in the community and would be punished if they said anything.

People like you are what I am talking about, you have no idea of what some women are up against in this country and it never changes.

It will never change until someone stands up to speak about those atrocities. In this day and age, it is baffling why this kind of thing is allowed to go on by the entire community! That it is allowed to go on makes the community partly to blame.

[margrace]

To Margrace, just asking again in case you missed it.,

Could you explain that and what you mean by "attitudes of supposedly enlightened countries such as Canada." I always thought Canada was one of the more 'enlightened countries', but Canadian sensibilities won't allow us to send the military anywhere to free women, or anyone else. We are only supposed to be peacekeepers, we don't go into any country to liberate anyone, so can you please clarify your statement. Are you saying that Canada should take a firmer stand and send in troops to liberate Muslim women?

Easy to see that you never had to fight for "pay eqity" for your staff. They still threaten one in Canada for standing up for their rights especially women.

Then you need new glasses, because I was heavily involved in pay equity and the process and have never been threatened. I'm still not clear on your response, I assume, but correct me if I'm wrong, that you are trying to compare the situation of Muslim women to that of Canadian women in general its not clear.

Pay equity is a well meaning attempt to equalize wages by comparing apples to oranges & who would object for equal pay for equal work, but really, think about beauocrats assessing different jobs for their "value" by weighing skill, effort, responsibility and working conditions - how objective is that - its not, -it can't be done. Pay equity is basically a kind of wage control since it takes wages out of the marketplace and turns them over to the arbitrary attention of government workers & their politically appointed tribunals. What they should be doing is comparing wages on a job to job basis.

The wage gap is closing as today's women are better educated, choose more skilled positions, have children later, or not at all in order to get ahead, systemic discrimination is no longer an issue for the most part.

The fairer way is to make sure that women are paid equally is to guarrantee equal access to education, skills training & job opportunities. Canada is no Afghanistan or Iraq.

Ah so I suspected, you were heavily involved in pay equity, Ha Ha. I heard those arguments, you were against it obviously. You were not in a small town where the good old boys gave the plum jobs to their friends and then made nasty comments to because well educated clerks were expected to work for minimum wage and were told that women should not be working anyway and they should be glad to have a job. You had not worked and improved yourself and were told that you were only worth minimum wage.

You did not see your staff fired illegaly and saw them forced to accept it because family worked in the community and would be punished if they said anything.

People like you are what I am talking about, you have no idea of what some women are up against in this country and it never changes.

It will never change until someone stands up to speak about those atrocities. In this day and age, it is baffling why this kind of thing is allowed to go on by the entire community! That it is allowed to go on makes the community partly to blame.

Well Betsy if you came here and talked to the women who finally got at least some semblance of pay equity they would probably tell you that if it hadn't been for my fight they would not have gotten what they did.

Not only my staff but the municipal staff got fair pay. But you know I was up against women as well as men. Women I find are their own worst enemies and this goes on in the Moslem world big time. Will it change only women can do that.

Never having lived in Iraq or Iran we have no concept of what it is like. How can it change, well it is changing here to some extent however I think Belinda's disagreement with Mr. Harper is a prime example.

[margrace]

To Margrace, just asking again in case you missed it.,

Could you explain that and what you mean by "attitudes of supposedly enlightened countries such as Canada." I always thought Canada was one of the more 'enlightened countries', but Canadian sensibilities won't allow us to send the military anywhere to free women, or anyone else. We are only supposed to be peacekeepers, we don't go into any country to liberate anyone, so can you please clarify your statement. Are you saying that Canada should take a firmer stand and send in troops to liberate Muslim women?

Easy to see that you never had to fight for "pay eqity" for your staff. They still threaten one in Canada for standing up for their rights especially women.

Then you need new glasses, because I was heavily involved in pay equity and the process and have never been threatened. I'm still not clear on your response, I assume, but correct me if I'm wrong, that you are trying to compare the situation of Muslim women to that of Canadian women in general its not clear.

Pay equity is a well meaning attempt to equalize wages by comparing apples to oranges & who would object for equal pay for equal work, but really, think about beauocrats assessing different jobs for their "value" by weighing skill, effort, responsibility and working conditions - how objective is that - its not, -it can't be done. Pay equity is basically a kind of wage control since it takes wages out of the marketplace and turns them over to the arbitrary attention of government workers & their politically appointed tribunals. What they should be doing is comparing wages on a job to job basis.

The wage gap is closing as today's women are better educated, choose more skilled positions, have children later, or not at all in order to get ahead, systemic discrimination is no longer an issue for the most part.

The fairer way is to make sure that women are paid equally is to guarrantee equal access to education, skills training & job opportunities. Canada is no Afghanistan or Iraq.

Ah so I suspected, you were heavily involved in pay equity, Ha Ha. I heard those arguments, you were against it obviously. You were not in a small town where the good old boys gave the plum jobs to their friends and then made nasty comments to because well educated clerks were expected to work for minimum wage and were told that women should not be working anyway and they should be glad to have a job. You had not worked and improved yourself and were told that you were only worth minimum wage.

You did not see your staff fired illegaly and saw them forced to accept it because family worked in the community and would be punished if they said anything.

People like you are what I am talking about, you have no idea of what some women are up against in this country and it never changes.

Scriblett where are you???

[betsy]

To Margrace, just asking again in case you missed it.,

Could you explain that and what you mean by "attitudes of supposedly enlightened countries such as Canada." I always thought Canada was one of the more 'enlightened countries', but Canadian sensibilities won't allow us to send the military anywhere to free women, or anyone else. We are only supposed to be peacekeepers, we don't go into any country to liberate anyone, so can you please clarify your statement. Are you saying that Canada should take a firmer stand and send in troops to liberate Muslim women?

Easy to see that you never had to fight for "pay eqity" for your staff. They still threaten one in Canada for standing up for their rights especially women.

Then you need new glasses, because I was heavily involved in pay equity and the process and have never been threatened. I'm still not clear on your response, I assume, but correct me if I'm wrong, that you are trying to compare the situation of Muslim women to that of Canadian women in general its not clear.

Pay equity is a well meaning attempt to equalize wages by comparing apples to oranges & who would object for equal pay for equal work, but really, think about beauocrats assessing different jobs for their "value" by weighing skill, effort, responsibility and working conditions - how objective is that - its not, -it can't be done. Pay equity is basically a kind of wage control since it takes wages out of the marketplace and turns them over to the arbitrary attention of government workers & their politically appointed tribunals. What they should be doing is comparing wages on a job to job basis.

The wage gap is closing as today's women are better educated, choose more skilled positions, have children later, or not at all in order to get ahead, systemic discrimination is no longer an issue for the most part.

The fairer way is to make sure that women are paid equally is to guarrantee equal access to education, skills training & job opportunities. Canada is no Afghanistan or Iraq.

Ah so I suspected, you were heavily involved in pay equity, Ha Ha. I heard those arguments, you were against it obviously. You were not in a small town where the good old boys gave the plum jobs to their friends and then made nasty comments to because well educated clerks were expected to work for minimum wage and were told that women should not be working anyway and they should be glad to have a job. You had not worked and improved yourself and were told that you were only worth minimum wage.

You did not see your staff fired illegaly and saw them forced to accept it because family worked in the community and would be punished if they said anything.

People like you are what I am talking about, you have no idea of what some women are up against in this country and it never changes.

It will never change until someone stands up to speak about those atrocities. In this day and age, it is baffling why this kind of thing is allowed to go on by the entire community! That it is allowed to go on makes the community partly to blame.

Well Betsy if you came here and talked to the women who finally got at least some semblance of pay equity they would probably tell you that if it hadn't been for my fight they would not have gotten what they did.

Not only my staff but the municipal staff got fair pay. But you know I was up against women as well as men. Women I find are their own worst enemies and this goes on in the Moslem world big time. Will it change only women can do that.

Never having lived in Iraq or Iran we have no concept of what it is like. How can it change, well it is changing here to some extent however I think Belinda's disagreement with Mr. Harper is a prime example.

Although I support some of the things that women fight for...I cannot say that I agree with some Women's Rights agenda. Some radical groups have turned it into a man-hating machine. I do not support any groups that believe in having their so-called "rights" by taking away from another. That doesn't solve anything. It only puts the shoe on the other foot so to speak.

Women being their worst enemies, I agree with that in some cases. And my opinion of Belinda is not flattering. I have seen her behaviour in numerous times while guesting at a talk show...and the way she handles debates makes me think her attitude only perpetuates the stereotypical image of a "bitch."

[margrace]

To Margrace, just asking again in case you missed it.,

Well Betsy if you came here and talked to the women who finally got at least some semblance of pay equity they would probably tell you that if it hadn't been for my fight they would not have gotten what they did.

Not only my staff but the municipal staff got fair pay. But you know I was up against women as well as men. Women I find are their own worst enemies and this goes on in the Moslem world big time. Will it change only women can do that.

Never having lived in Iraq or Iran we have no concept of what it is like. How can it change, well it is changing here to some extent however I think Belinda's disagreement with Mr. Harper is a prime example.

Although I support some of the things that women fight for...I cannot say that I agree with some Women's Rights agenda. Some radical groups have turned it into a man-hating machine. I do not support any groups that believe in having their so-called "rights" by taking away from another. That doesn't solve anything. It only puts the shoe on the other foot so to speak.

Women being their worst enemies, I agree with that in some cases. And my opinion of Belinda is not flattering. I have seen her behaviour in numerous times while guesting at a talk show...and the way she handles debates makes me think her attitude only perpetuates the stereotypical image of a "bitch."

But isn't it a fact that unless a woman is a "bitch" or considered so by men, she will never get anywhere?

I agree Belinda is quite capable of looking after herself but I also think Harper though she was out of line and not good at being a good little woman and doing as she was told.

One of the things I do not agree with is women demanding to be in men's clubs and then turning around and refusing the same right to them. We all need our little groups and we all should be entitled to have women or men groups.

[scribblet]

To Margrace, just asking again in case you missed it.,

Could you explain that and what you mean by "attitudes of supposedly enlightened countries such as Canada."

Then you need new glasses, because I was heavily involved in pay equity and the process and have never been threatened. I'm still not clear on your response, I assume, but correct me if I'm wrong, that you are trying to compare the situation of Muslim women to that of Canadian women in general its not clear.

Pay equity is a well meaning attempt to equalize wages by comparing apples to oranges & who would object for equal pay for equal work, but really, think about beauocrats assessing different jobs for their "value" by weighing skill, effort, responsibility and working conditions - how objective is that - its not, -it can't be done. Pay equity is basically a kind of wage control since it takes wages out of the marketplace and turns them over to the arbitrary attention of government workers & their politically appointed tribunals. What they should be doing is comparing wages on a job to job basis.

The wage gap is closing as today's women are better educated, choose more skilled positions, have children later, or not at all in order to get ahead, systemic discrimination is no longer an issue for the most part.

The fairer way is to make sure that women are paid equally is to guarrantee equal access to education, skills training & job opportunities. Canada is no Afghanistan or Iraq.

Ah so I suspected, you were heavily involved in pay equity, Ha Ha. I heard those arguments, you were against it obviously. You were not in a small town where the good old boys gave the plum jobs to their friends and then made nasty comments to because well educated clerks were expected to work for minimum wage and were told that women should not be working anyway and they should be glad to have a job. You had not worked and improved yourself and were told that you were only worth minimum wage.

You did not see your staff fired illegaly and saw them forced to accept it because family worked in the community and would be punished if they said anything.

People like you are what I am talking about, you have no idea of what some women are up against in this country and it never changes.

I don't know exactly what you 'suspected', and things do change and have. I am certainly in favour of full equality, that is equal pay for equal work. I am not in favour of a politisized, beauracratic establishment making subjective decisions based on a usually puffed up account of the actual position. Although, from my experiences there were some valid cases and the women were compensated. As I said, women are making and have made strong gains and will continue to do so as long as they acquire the education and skills necessary to advancement and job requirements. I'm female, and have worked since 1962, so I know exactly what you speak of so please don't try to suggest I don't know what I'm talking about.

If you can provide a source or backup for your statements it would be useful, otherwise it is simply a subjective view of what happened, it would be interesting to read both sides of the issue. I don't doubt that a small town would be further behind in accepting equality for women, but that too will change. However, any kind of harrassment and illegal firings can be taken to court or a human rights tribunal, the laws are there to back up such claims.

There is absolutely no comparison between Muslim women under an Islamist theocracy and Canadian women. Canadian women can if they choose acquire the skills necessary for advancement, but there are some jobs that women cannot do for obvious reasons. I've never been a radical feminist, but have always had independence and have worked my way up the ladder. I worked full time taking two mat. leaves, and am reaping the benefits of a good pension and security. (I do work part time on contract because I still enjoy being involved).

As an aside, from my experiences I would rather work for a man than a woman anyday.

[August1991]

Dear August1991,

We all know of Omar Sharif. Have we ever heard of an Arab woman, a Hollywood star? Why not?

Omar Sharif indeed. What of Bollywood?

Good response, Thelonious.

Bollywood is in India, but there are presumably Egyptian movie stars. I have thought of Benazir Bhutto as a political example, and there have been some prominent Palestinian women.

I chose Omar Sharif as an example of an Arab man the West knows. And Thelonious, it is rank anti-Americanism to suggest Hollywood can't tolerate foreign accents. I suggest you watch the credits of any Hollywood movie to see the international mix of those involved in its production - like so much else in the US.

Iran allows women to drive but from the IHT link above:

Last fall, she petitioned the national auto racing federation in this male-dominated society for permission to compete against men. When it was granted, she became not only the first woman in Iran to race cars against the opposite sex, but also the first woman since the Islamic revolution here to compete against men in any sport.

This example is proof enough of the situation.

More generally, I meant that in all the photographs I saw of demonstrations whether in Europe or Asia, there were no women. Always men.

The West organized boycotts against South Africa because of apartheid. Is this different?

----

Note to Betsy, Margrace and scriblet, please click on "add reply" at the very bottom of the thread and not on "reply". IOW, don't include previous posts as quotes in your reply. Eventually, this makes the thread unreadable as the posts above show.

[Black Dog]

Although I support some of the things that women fight for...I cannot say that I agree with some Women's Rights agenda. Some radical groups have turned it into a man-hating machine. I do not support any groups that believe in having their so-called "rights" by taking away from another. That doesn't solve anything. It only puts the shoe on the other foot so to speak.

I've heard about these "man-hating" feminists. But I've never actually encountered any self-described feminist who wants to take rights away from men. It's a myth, and an ugly, damaging one.

Women being their worst enemies, I agree with that in some cases. And my opinion of Belinda is not flattering. I have seen her behaviour in numerous times while guesting at a talk show...and the way she handles debates makes me think her attitude only perpetuates the stereotypical image of a "bitch."

This is interesting because I recall a study that was done on the 1993 election that showed, basicaly, that women who used certain words or body language were regarded less positively than men using the same verbal or physical cues.

This might be it.

But that's thread drift.

Carry on.

[August1991]

But that's thread drift.

Ah heck, why not.

This story accompanied with their photos (two blondes) figured prominently on the front page of the Globe & Mail today.

Now, if the two people in the next room at the Cancun hotel had been men instead of women, would everyone have the same impression that "they must be innocent"?

Our perceptions of men and women are different because men and women are different. (There, I said it.)

So Black Dog, I'm not surprised that people judge male politicians differently from female politicians.

With all that said however, I don't see why we should make the difference "official" and organize a State around the difference. First, there will be too many exceptions. Second, it is not for the State to decide how to treat men and women differently. IOW, the State should not be used as a cartel of one sex against the other.

To get back to the thread's title, this is one major difference between western liberal societies and middle eastern islamic societies.

[Black Dog]

Our perceptions of men and women are different because men and women are different. (There, I said it.)

So Black Dog, I'm not surprised that people judge male politicians differently from female politicians.

Sorry, but "men and women are different" is more than just fatuous: it's a cop out. Gender differences are complicated: some are inherent others are social creations. I think it behooves us, as individuals and a society, to look at the gender differences we take for granted and examine how many make sense in the context of living in a society where people are suppossed to be equal regardless of gender. Arbitrary gender distinctions don't serve us well at all.

With all that said however, I don't see why we should make the difference "official" and organize a State around the difference. First, there will be too many exceptions. Second, it is not for the State to decide how to treat men and women differently. IOW, the State should not be used as a cartel of one sex against the other.

So we "unofficially" organize our states around it. Whoopee for us.

Now I think the idea that state-sanctioned discrimination on gender lines is a no-no is pretty much self-

evident. Our constiution says as much, as does common sense.

To get back to the thread's title, this is one major difference between western liberal societies and middle eastern islamic societies

I think you mean "western liberal societies and the rest of the world".